News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:PeerTube v3 by roenxi on Saturday January 09, 2021 @09:58PM (#25708687)
I like PeerTube, but the really important part of the puzzle is the advertiser network. What makes YouTube special is that Google takes care of the advertising side of things and makes it easy for people to monetise.

If Silicon Valley continues to drift into ideological activism, at some point a hugely profitable opportunity to set up a new advertising network develops.

Re:PeerTube v3 by marcinzm on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:28PM (#25709191)
>If Silicon Valley continues to drift into ideological activism, at some point a hugely profitable opportunity to set up a new advertising network develops.

YouTube started moderating it's content more because advertisers asked for it. No large advertiser wants to be shown next to a neo-nazi video.

Re:PeerTube v3 by nyolfen on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:45PM (#25710228)
you have your eyes closed if you think they're only censoring the worst kinds of content, like nazis. videos have been taken down for e.g. criticizing lockdowns. it has moved well into policing acceptable thought.
Re:PeerTube v3 by r00fus on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:57PM (#25710355)
On the other hand I don’t let my kids watch YouTube (even using YT kids and with my account to bypass ads) because they don’t do enough moderation of extremist videos. A few clicks leads to a lot of provably false BS.
Re:PeerTube v3 by rzz3 on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:19AM (#25712260)
With all due respect though, it’s not YouTube’s job to decide what’s appropriate for your kids, and there’s a big difference between what’s appropriate for children and what’s appropriate for the rest of us consenting adults to watch.
Re:PeerTube v3 by pbhjpbhj on Sunday January 10, 2021 @05:19AM (#25713111)
It's not about deciding what's acceptable for one's kids, it's about limiting the range of programming so that one can choose if that range is acceptable. This is a difference from traditional channels which have a distinct flavour and are subject to watchdogs (in my country, UK, at least).

No parent has time to watch TV with their child all the time up until they're 18. You might say 'well don't let them watch TV' and that's a valid choice. But other parents want to choose safe ranges of programming and have someone else police stuff to make sure it stays in that range.

Re:PeerTube v3 by dmkolobov on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:52PM (#25710307)
A large portion of this kind of content results in people irresponsibly spreading a deadly disease while hospitals are turning dying people away in some areas of the country, e.g. LA.

I am happy to see content platforms policing thought in this manner!

Re:PeerTube v3 by seebetter on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:11AM (#25710521)
I’m not denying the numbers but I was at Century City mall today. Lot of people relatively, lot of fun. Made 3 new friends today and went on a date.

Yes roughly 2-3x the people are dying everyday vs 5 months ago. That’s horrible obviously but I barely see anyone in a close setting.

But people are living despite it. My friend is dating 3 to 7 girls at once and they all know each other (and all hang out together).

Not saying that’s ideal but the pandemic isn’t affecting people like cable news suggest. Barely anyone talks about it but we all try to be careful.

Re:PeerTube v3 by Aunche on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:28AM (#25710701)
The residents of Singapore, Taiwan, and New Zealand are also having fun right now, without the 2x-3x people dying. The difference is that they stay at home when the experts tell them to stay at home.
Re:PeerTube v3 by gurkendoktor on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:13AM (#25712212)
At least in Taiwan everyone also wore masks, which was the opposite of what Western experts prescribed at the time. Telling people to wear masks was even banned in some places (though not on YouTube):

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51729647

(Note that this is from March! When I left Taiwan in late January, everyone at the airport was masked up and slightly paranoid.)

Taiwan and NZ also closed their borders while Western experts "knew" that the coronavirus was just the flu, and that closing borders was xenophobic, racism is the real pandemic, etc. etc.

2020 is easily the year when Western experts failed the hardest I've ever witnessed. Absolutely surreal. Maybe we should fire and replace our current selection of experts before we ban everyone else.

Re:PeerTube v3 by seebetter on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @05:47AM (#25745043)
Are you suggesting I have aided the pandemic? I have barely seen anyone. I am safe. I live in Beverly Hills where fascist authoritarians have destroyed our city.

So nice to see sycophantic unintelligent “hackers” promote blind authoritarianism. You have no concept of the words you so ambitiously spout.

Re:PeerTube v3 by daveleebbc on Sunday January 10, 2021 @02:16AM (#25711828)
Give me an example of a video that was removed for "critcizing lockdowns" -- and I can guarantee the reason isn't the criticism, but the manner in which it is somehow "backed up" by disinformation about Covid.

Playing into this idea that somehow criticism isn't allowed is disingenuous.

Re:PeerTube v3 by rzz3 on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:17AM (#25712244)
> Give me an example of a video that was removed for "critcizing lockdowns"

I’m sure you realize how difficult this would be to respond to, if such videos were in fact deleted.

Nonetheless, https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/youtube-facebook-spli...

Re:PeerTube v3 by etchalon on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:06AM (#25712619)
That video was not removed for criticizing lockdowns. It was removed because it was misinformation, pseudoscience and conspiracy nonsense.
Re:PeerTube v3 by xyzzyz on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:02AM (#25712152)
Disinformation, as determined by minimum wage experts hired as YouTube moderators.
Re:PeerTube v3 by therein on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:03AM (#25710426)
I think this kind of thing is over-emphasized.

Most advertisers probably already understand that the person being exposed to their content for a brief moment isn't under the impression that the ad doesn't mean strong endorsement of the content by the advertiser.

Re:PeerTube v3 by tibu on Sunday January 10, 2021 @02:07AM (#25711762)
This may be true but advertiser do not want to sponsor such content maybe
Re:PeerTube v3 by roenxi on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:41PM (#25710177)
About 33% of the US actively supported Trump's bid for presidency, and accounting for turnout probably a majority didn't care if he got back in.

Accounting for business owners likely leaning free-market, it seems improbable that they mean 'Trump supporters' when they say 'we don't want to advertise with neo-nazis'. They probably mean literal neo-nazi.

I don't mind if literal neo-nazi are moderated off a channel. Nobody likes them.

Re:PeerTube v3 by marcinzm on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:51PM (#25710296)
Look at all the types of videos YouTube de-monetizes, do you think YouTube wants to pay for hosting and make no money on the videos? No, that's all the types of videos that large advertisers (which pay the most) have complained about over time.
Re:PeerTube v3 by roenxi on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:56PM (#25710348)
Of course they want to, that is why they are doing it. They'd prefer to keep the network effects going because they know an exodus would undermine their for-pay videos.

If they weren't happy, they would delete the videos on demonetisation. They don't have to pay for hosting. They know these videos are drawing in a valuable audience.

Re:PeerTube v3 by YZF on Sunday January 10, 2021 @01:13AM (#25711236)
What's a literal neo-nazi? I guess nazis who aren't declaring their support for Hitler are not "literal" neo-nazis and are ok? I mean where you draw that line? Nobody likes them? Lots of people like them.
Re:PeerTube v3 by seebetter on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:09AM (#25710494)
Re:PeerTube v3 by jrnichols on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:05PM (#25709758)
> but the really important part of the puzzle is the advertiser network

If your main goal is "How can I make money?" then maybe. And that's one of the huge reasons that YouTube is the mess that it is.

For the rest of us, this is not important at all. In fact, I am happy that there is no advertiser network whatsoever. if I put something on the web, I do not do it because I expect compensation. I am not alone in this sentiment.

Re:PeerTube v3 by tastyfreeze on Sunday January 10, 2021 @01:44AM (#25711539)
Most content creators need to be compensated to continue making content. Advertising isn't the only solution but it does allow viewers to watch without paying.

PeerTube needs content creators to get on board. Having options for monetizing content could encourage creators to use PeerTube.

Re:PeerTube v3 by TeMPOraL on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:31AM (#25712801)
> Most content creators need to be compensated to continue making content.

That's the problem right there. "Content creators". Protein factories churning out videos for money.

Not every platform needs "content creators" - sometimes people with interesting things to share are enough, and these tend to use side revenue to fund their sharing.

Re:PeerTube v3 by cfn on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:42AM (#25712886)
Spot on, YouTube was once full of people like that.
Re:PeerTube v3 by tastyfreeze on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:32PM (#25719368)
What other moniker would you give to people that create videos for others to consume regardless of financial incentive?

Many of the YouTube channels I consume didnt start for any other reason than making things for others. They found popularity and decided to make a go at doing it professionally. Making quality content cost money and time. Expecting everybody to make videos on their own dime for posterity is unrealistic.

Re:PeerTube v3 by pjmlp on Sunday January 10, 2021 @10:04AM (#25715241)
The problem with side revenue is that is usually only available to people with already a good position in the society.

Others mostly need to match their hobbies with a side job.

Re:PeerTube v3 by BlueTemplar on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:10AM (#25712644)
That might have been a problem a few years ago, but by now many content creators are not solely relying on advertising money (which itself was prompted by YouTube fucking up).
Re:PeerTube v3 by jrnichols on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @09:55AM (#25747663)
> Most content creators need to be compensated to continue making content.

False. The continued growth of Vimeo and even YouTube show this as well.

> Advertising isn't the only solution but it does allow viewers to watch without paying.

False.

> PeerTube needs content creators to get on board.

If by "content creators" you mean Fuck Jerry Media or whoever, then no, it really doesn't. If by "content creators" you just mean "those who create content without the expectation of financial gain" then PeerTube is doing ok.

> Having options for monetizing content could encourage creators to use PeerTube.

Again, if "How do I monetize this?" is your primary reason for the content, maybe the content doesn't need to be there. That's the point that people are missing.

If your goal is "make money" instead of "share useful information" then you are part of this problem.

Re:PeerTube v3 by LockAndLol on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:45AM (#25712909)
TL;DR We don't need ads.

There's a possibility to add donation links and the icon is then visible on every video. Patreon is big for a reason: people actually use it.

I'd rather donate to the content creators I want to see thrive than be bombarded with ads for things I don't want anyway.

The peertube devs refuse to incorporate monetization beyond donations, but they DO have a plugin system. It's not beyond imagination for someone (person or group) to add something like "paid scrobbling" where people add e.g 5€ on their account and then it's divided depending on certain criteria. That criteria could be for example:

- always give 50% to my subscriptions

- give the rest to creators of videos that I have watched which:

  * have these tags

  * are longer than 5 minutes

  * and that I have watched at least 50% or 5 minutes of, which ever comes first
All of these would be opt-in or course to reduce the likelihood of uploaders artificially lengthening or shortening their videos (those magic 10 minutes on youtube), or trying to discover common user settings and tailoring their videos to fit those settings.

Tada. No ads, user-defined distribution of resources, yada yada.

Re:PeerTube v3 by BlueTemplar on Sunday January 10, 2021 @06:03AM (#25713429)
Patreon has its own issues. I wished it would be less dominant in the English-speaking donation 'market'.

I was hoping that Flattr would be able to provide a Chromium-free, 'Brave-like' experience, especially with their browser plugin, but if anything it has been losing popularity (despite being years older than Patreon!).

For a reason that escapes me, they even recently decided to officially remove their plugin, so now they can even hardly be differentiated from the other Patreon-likes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15557954

https://github.com/flattr/flattr-extension/

Re:PeerTube v3 by LockAndLol on Sunday January 10, 2021 @06:51AM (#25713779)
Same. I was also hoping to find something that doesn't require me to have a credit card, only accepts USD, and *has* to go through a third party.

Flattr uses credit cards exclusively, Liberapay only uses Stripe, Patreon a host of third parties but no direct transfers, and I have checked out the rest.

Why can't I just transfer the amount I want, when I want, directly to another bank without an intermediary? I'm fine with the donation subscription service knowing how much and to whom I'm donating and taking out but why does it have to talk to so many other services I haven't picked or agreed to interact with?

Re:PeerTube v3 by Changaco on Monday January 11, 2021 @04:51AM (#25726777)
There's no such thing as a direct transfer of virtual money. Just because you don't always see the intermediaries doesn't mean they aren't there.
Re:PeerTube v3 by BlueTemplar on Sunday January 10, 2021 @10:25AM (#25715510)
Well, transferring money worldwide is pretty hard – cryptocurrencies wouldn't have had the same popularity if it wasn't.
Re:PeerTube v3 by papaf on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:09AM (#25712193)
Most content creators need to be compensated to continue making content.

Most videos are made by professionals? That's not my experience.

Re:PeerTube v3 by BlueTemplar on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:12AM (#25712662)
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if most video views were made on content whose creators are at least trying to make a living out of it.
Re:PeerTube v3 by Yetanfou on Sunday January 10, 2021 @06:21AM (#25713552)
The mere fact that you use the terms "content" and "content creators" stems from the fact that you're talking about a different category of creator, namely those whose role is to pull in eyes to see the ads which make money for the site owner. The parent poster wants people to see the videos he puts out and is not in it for the money. In the first case the video distribution system is a tool to make money, in the second it is a tool to distribute videos.
Re:PeerTube v3 by tamrix on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:26PM (#25709148)
Do people forget that for many years since the founding of YouTube, YouTube didn't have any video ads?

The better question is, was not having ads on the YouTube platform a deliberate choice to help grow adoption over its competitors which would have had to have ads to run (at the time) the expensive servers?

Re:PeerTube v3 by berkes on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:37AM (#25712848)
> If Silicon Valley continues to drift into ideological activism

Just to be clear (and pedantic): Peertube is French.

One could see these fediversed projects as counter-SV, actually. Not 'coming from SV', but attacking the SV status quo.

Re:PeerTube v3 by BlueTemplar on Sunday January 10, 2021 @06:20AM (#25713538)
Indeed, they are staunchly anti-GAFAM † :

https://degooglisons-internet.org/en/

And have pretty much became a reference for libre alternatives :

https://degooglisons-internet.org/en/alternatives

† By the way it's a very SV thing to do to think that everything revolves around SV, and therefore excluding Microsoft from the list of the problematic companies. (And including Netflix, which is problematic in its own ways, but at least an order of magnitude less than the "big 5".) Sadly, some politicians have also been dropping the trailing M, I guess that those big contracts with the military and the healthcare sector have something to do with that…

Re:PeerTube v3 by qwantim1 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:05PM (#25708793)
I don’t agree.

It’s an important thing, not the important thing.

This is a great alternative to sharing large video files with others by having someone else just watch what they want of it, if you want to ensure it’s more permanent than- let’s say- Google Music.

If the fear is that an evil Google competitor will come along that will do more damage- this wouldn’t enable that. That would take a serious amount of funding and technology, not a free clone of YouTube without all of the infrastructural backing.

Re:PeerTube v3 by judge2020 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:21PM (#25709062)
That's kind of an issue then - YouTube is only partly (probably a single-digit-percent given they dropped the direct share feature[0]) about sharing videos with friends - most people stick around for the recommendations, ie. the endless stream of interesting/intriguing/funny content. Most of that content currently dominating YT (at least, at the quantity that it's produced) is only possible due to these creators making YouTube their full-time job and getting paid to do it. Linus Tech Tips (which also runs Techquickie and Techlinked) attributes 26% of their total revenue to YT Ads[1], and the other categories (like merchandise/affiliate links) aren't something everyone can do if their videos aren't about products available on Amazon or can't grow their merch at the rate LTT does. If PT is just about sharing videos, then you might as well run a nextcloud instance instead since 'no ads' is a huge downside to PT for creators.

0: https://techcrunch.com/2019/08/21/youtube-is-closing-its-pri...

1: https://youtu.be/-zt57TWkTF4?t=395

Re:PeerTube v3 by BlueTemplar on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:16AM (#25712695)
You're forgetting about donations / patronage, which everyone can do and I'm willing to bet has been growing in share for the past years.
Re:PeerTube v3 by BlueTemplar on Sunday January 10, 2021 @06:25AM (#25713584)
I'm pretty sure that one of the main reasons that YouTube 'won' is that it was easy to just share these videos with friends/family, and also straightforward to enable/disable public sharing of them.

I've never even heard of that 'direct share' feature, but have used the private and unreferenced settings on my videos many times over the years.

Re:PeerTube v3 by anigbrowl on Sunday January 10, 2021 @02:46AM (#25712050)
Enough advertising already. There have to be better ways to monetize things than turning everything into a billboard. I'm willing to pay for stuff, but I'll fight tooth and nail against being advertised to.

Besides the unwanted cognitive load it imposes, advertisers want feedback and that means they're incentivized to invade my privacy as well as intrude upon my attention.

Re:PeerTube v3 by CuriouslyC on Sunday January 10, 2021 @08:50AM (#25714601)
Unless you're a baller youtuber with subscribers in the millions, youtube's monetization sucks. The game if you're a small fish is to use youtube to get people off youtube, because if you don't, you won't make anything.
Re:PeerTube v3 by hobofan on Sunday January 10, 2021 @07:04AM (#25713868)
Advertisement on Youtube is as irrelevant as it has ever been.

After the "Adpocalypse" where the money you could make from advertisement significantly dropped for most creators, they recognized that relying only on Youtube is a bad idea and diversified. Since then other avenues (Twitch, Patreon, merch, ad placements) have become their primary sources of income.

For mid-size creators Youtube ads are not enough to make a living from it and for big creators with low production expenses (e.g. gaming videos) that _could_ make a living from it, it's not a significant portion of their income if they diversified (and most creators that haven't are not on the platform anymore).

Re:PeerTube v3 by tedunangst on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:22PM (#25709077)
The only web advertising I ever see is from Daring Fireball precisely because it doesn't come from an ad network.
Re:PeerTube v3 by tachyonbeam on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:00PM (#25708731)
There already are other networks. There's AppNexus in New York for one. I don't know if they are as strict with their requirements as Google.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppNexus

Re:PeerTube v3 by roenxi on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:04PM (#25708777)
I'll re-put what I'm thinking:

The technology behind the fediverse is an important brick, so PeerTube 3 is interesting. But the house will only be liveable when someone figures out how companies like AppNexus integrate profitably and successfully into the fediverse.

Re:PeerTube v3 by wilsynet on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:47PM (#25709507)
Is it ideological activism to enforce the terms of service which prohibit the incitement of violence?
Re:PeerTube v3 by toolz on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:52PM (#25709585)
To directly answer your question, I would say no - however it is ideological activism to only enforce those ToS for specific services. The #killallmen hashtag has trended more than once on twitter, for example.
Re:PeerTube v3 by wilsynet on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:11PM (#25709830)
Agreed. Twitter should enforce this more consistently.
Re:PeerTube v3 by toolz on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:24PM (#25709981)
I would suggest in this specific incidence they are enforcing it very consistently in that they aren't punishing anyone for inciting that particular type of violence.
Re:PeerTube v3 by cortesoft on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:21PM (#25709938)
Sure, but no one has actually tried to kill all men. They didn't do this latest action until after people were actually killed by the violence incited.
Re:PeerTube v3 by roenxi on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:18AM (#25710621)
That is giving "kill all men" a metaphorical reading. That is a fair reading, it probably isn't actually a call to violence, they just feel frustrated about something.

The issue is that a fair reading is not being applied evenly. Twitter interprets "To all of those who have asked, I will not be going to the Inauguration on January 20th" [0] as a call to violence. That isn't even close to a fair metaphorical reading, and it was probably meant literally.

[0] https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/suspensio...

Re:PeerTube v3 by etchalon on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:13AM (#25712671)
The post made clear that it wasn't about the tweet itself, but the broader context and how the tweet was being interpreted by communities who sought to do harm.

You can argue that's not fair to Trump, and don't pretend his accounts were banned for the literal meaning of the words, when the post you linked to makes clear the thinking behind the decision.

Re:PeerTube v3 by throwaway316943 on Sunday January 10, 2021 @06:38AM (#25713692)
This is the “video games cause violence argument”
Re:PeerTube v3 by cortesoft on Sunday January 10, 2021 @01:01PM (#25717389)
That is no way comparable. This would be like if there was a video game where you killed politicians with machetes and then suddenly a bunch of politicians were killed in machete attacks.

At that point, you wouldn’t be able to say the video game was not a cause. This is not blaming Trump for abstract violence in general, but for specific violence that he called for actually happening.

Re:PeerTube v3 by cortesoft on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:55PM (#25717309)
Right, but the violence actually happened. If we suddenly had people reading the #killallmen hashtag as literal, and start killing men, then Twitter would likely ban it. Once Trump’s tweets led to an actual terrorist attack, they banned him.

It is not a perfect system, but I think banning based on result is not an unfair system.

Re:PeerTube v3 by rzz3 on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:21AM (#25712275)
It is still a very direct call to violence.
Re:PeerTube v3 by wilsynet on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:52AM (#25712503)
Is it a credible call to violence, or is it more of a figure of speech?

I’d say that Trump’s calls to violence are pretty credible.

Re:PeerTube v3 by toolz on Sunday January 10, 2021 @05:55PM (#25721153)
which message from trump was a call to violence? Genuinely asking as I probably haven't followed this whole mess as closely as I could've
Re:PeerTube v3 by astrange on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:22PM (#25709950)
Has anyone attempted to kill all men?
Re:PeerTube v3 by toolz on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:42PM (#25710191)
After a quick search, yes there is at least one incident of a woman who killed a boy and stated that she wanted to kill all men. There may be more, I haven't spent much time on the subject, either way the definition of incitement doesn't require anyone to follow through with the incited actions.
Re:PeerTube v3 by wilsynet on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:48AM (#25712470)
I definitely think that the person who killed a boy and stated that she wants to kill all men — I definitely think they shouldn’t have a Twitter account

Has Twitter been made aware of this person and won’t suspend their account?

Re:PeerTube v3 by odessacubbage on Sunday January 10, 2021 @02:54AM (#25712101)
valerie solanas comes to mind
Re:PeerTube v3 by cortesoft on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:23PM (#25709972)
How is it going to be a profitable opportunity? No brand wants to be associated with the content that is being blocked, so there is no advertiser demand for alternative platforms.
Re:PeerTube v3 by mhuffman on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:30PM (#25710048)
I think you will find that if there are eyeballs, there are brands interested in advertising. Examples include: The Pirate Bay, 4chan, pornhub, etc.
Re:PeerTube v3 by BlueTemplar on Sunday January 10, 2021 @05:52AM (#25713351)
The advertiser network is one of the main things that Flixxo has tried to capitalize on, but with YouTube(/Twitch) being so dominant, and them being backed up by Google(/Amazon), it so far doesn't seem to be able to break out of its South American bubble.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Flixxo/wiki/index

Re:PeerTube v3 by Iv on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:15PM (#25708970)
I agree, but think it is the creators retribution piece that is important, and that it does not have to take the form of advertisement.
Re:PeerTube v3 by einpoklum on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:33PM (#25719383)
That piece of the YouTube puzzle is important to capitalists. It is of no importance to people who want to share video. And as for those who want to (try and) make a living off of sharing videos online - they can ask for monetary support and often get some.
Re:PeerTube v3 by pixl97 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:25PM (#25709997)
Profitable how?

If it is not moderated, it will just be filled with spam, porn, and insane rambling.

If it is moderated it can be attacked and/or controlled.

It's a lose/lose situation.