News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by recursivedoubts on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:51PM (#25637749)
We were sold down the river by our own elites, particularly on Wall Street and with the full complicity of the Economics Departments of the west.

"Comparative Advantage", something something about corn and wool, meanwhile the whole supply chain was moved to China, our middle class was decimated and we went into tremendous amounts of debt to pretend everything was fine...

Left, right... whatever. The elites have failed us.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by mc32 on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:47PM (#25638623)
Dems used to be pro labor, Repubs used to be pro business (on balance, but kind of served both when it made sense).

In the ‘80s Dems saw being default pro business was more lucrative and jumped ship.

Now both parties play both hands and workers get shafted.

Oh but the Dems are pro workers! No, they are not. They pretend they are. The only ones who are pro worker also sold out (Bernie) and went globalist —Compare his positions in the 80s vs now.

[dead]
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Dylan16807 on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:16PM (#25639035)
Medical care and not being harassed/shot are also important, and the Democratic party doesn't seem particularly enthusiastic about those things either.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by diydsp on Monday January 04, 2021 @09:49PM (#25641443)
Those two items do take a prominent place in the dem platform [0]

Several large-ish departments [1] have been persuaded to make budgetary changes in regards to the lite version of defund the police, i.e. transfer certain operations to medical specialists such as mental illness, etc.

don't have time to dig as deep into dem support of taxpayer-funded healthcare, but here is one group to pay attention to because they seem to be very realistic, even pragmatic about it. Some interesting podcast interviews coming out of their media: https://pnhp.org/news-category/members-in-the-news/ https://pnhp.org/kitchen-table-campaign/

[3] https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/new-york-city-police-fundi...

[2] https://www.npr.org/2020/12/10/944938471/minneapolis-shifts-...

[1] https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/civilians-could-repl...

[0] https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/party-platform/

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by anonunivgrad on Monday January 04, 2021 @10:17PM (#25641655)
I think he means the thousands (and rising) of people shot by criminals every year, not the few dozen shot by police.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Dylan16807 on Monday January 04, 2021 @10:45PM (#25641821)
No, I definitely mean the people shot by police. It's not so much the direct deaths that are the problem as the issue of making people unable to rely on the police.

And while criminal shootings are... rising? (for homicides, 2019 was on par with 2006, above 2014, and below 2017), excess police don't stop criminal shootings.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by anonunivgrad on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:18PM (#25639051)
Yes, the actual socialists and other economic leftists are the big losers right now. Biden admin will push idpol nonsense to the extreme while not delivering anything worthwhile for the economic left.

Next four years will be a feeding frenzy for the sociopaths of America.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by viburnum on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:20PM (#25638242)
Comparative advantage never made any sense. It's a model of a world without technology, without supply chains, without increasing returns to scale, and only two countries.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by whatshisface on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:28PM (#25638351)
You sort of had me until the last claim (no more than two countries), I know for a fact their models are more advanced than that. Any actual economist care to chime in and explain comparative advantage?
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by beefman on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:44PM (#25638596)
There are models with more than two countries, but no consensus on which to use. Most economists couldn't name one of these models, or anyone who has ever studied the question.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by icemelt8 on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:39PM (#25638524)
This is an amazing article, which provides both views https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.as...
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by roenxi on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:39PM (#25638526)
Replacing all the financial and political elites is a good idea, they have demonstrated incompetence at running the economy.

But it is too easy to blame them and overlook the role of the public. Particularly in politics, where it cannot be overlooked that the voters vote for whoever they want. This didn't creep up on the US - this was a 30-40 year process overseen by the Boomers which anyone could have seen coming had they looked. Many did, it was obvious China was the future. It is well worth being sober, realistic and evidence based about what they did and whether their successes and failures were correctly learned by the next generation.

I think the 30s and under have learned a lot more lessons about the environment and social theory than developed an understanding of why China is becoming the pre-eminent world power, why it is led by Communists and whether the US should have done things differently.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by jhallenworld on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:44PM (#25638599)
I think this all started as some kind of national security consensus that we would help China by having free trade with them.

It worked in that millions of Chinese have been uplifted (of course this is vast oversimplification: they helped themselves and many other countries also trade with them), but has definitely failed if we ever thought to make the Chinese government less authoritarian as a side effect.

It was definitely paid for by American workers. I don't know what economists were smoking when they thought the entire blue collar workforce would be retrained into better jobs, but that's the theory they kept forwarding.

I've also heard that this has helped America by keeping inflation low. What they mean when they say "inflation" is almost always "wage inflation". You can see the mindset in the Covid relief debates- God Forbid we give people more money than the slave wages they get from corporations- they might not work! Corporations might have to pay more in wages!

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by magicsmoke on Monday January 04, 2021 @07:09PM (#25640148)
In a sense this has kept inflation low. China's factories and population can produce more cheap knick knacks than America can ever consume. Instead of newly printed money chasing after an inexhaustible supply of things to order from Amazon, it chases after things that are actually limited in quantity like land, stocks, gold, and bitcoin.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by esoterica on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:45PM (#25638610)
Why the obsession with manufacturing jobs? Unemployment was still low (at least pre-covid) and total compensation, while not growing as fast as some people would like, is still higher than ever.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by slv77 on Monday January 04, 2021 @09:36PM (#25641365)
Manufacturing requires the ability to marshal human, technological and financial resources at scale. The US policy for the last 50 years has been to invest heavily in the technological and financial capabilities of the equation and outsource the human capability to other countries.

COVID-19 has made it apparent that there are significant advantages to having the operational capabilities to organize human resources at scale. The US, for example, was unable to staff an effective test and trace program even while a significant percentage of its population sat idle or to mobilize healthcare resources to hot spots. Effectively the US traded 300,000 lives because the US couldn't effectively organize 300,000 people quickly.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by esoterica on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @12:46PM (#25648356)
That has to do with state capacity, which is terrible in the present day United States, not manufacturing ability. Having a lot of factories on-shore is not going to magically make the government competent.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by jdkee on Monday January 04, 2021 @11:10PM (#25641998)
And we can't vaccinate our population in an efficient manner either.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by blackrock on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:35PM (#25638451)
Your politicians failed you.

You vote for them, and you feel good if they win. But then what happens? Nothing.

The rich keeps getting richer. While the poor stays poor. And the middle class becomes poorer.

The elites just wants to make more money. And what do they do? They buy out the politicians, in order to keep themselves rich.

And what’s the biggest lie that they’ve sold you?

That trickle-down-economics works for everyone.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by esoterica on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:41PM (#25638554)
Who is the "you" here? Given that this is a tech focused website, I bet a lot of people on here have done very well in recent years. Hard to consider the 20- and 30- something year olds making $500k/year at a FAANG or a few million dollars when the unicorn they work for IPOs an oppressed class.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:21PM (#25639078)
20- and 30- somethings at FAANG is hardly a picture of America as a whole. Also if 20- and 30- somethings ignore the rest of our neighbors in other fields because “F you got mine”, we’re hardly better than the elitists.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by catawbasam on Monday January 04, 2021 @08:22PM (#25640780)
Better than the elitists? They are the elite.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @10:00PM (#25641535)
Ha! I was going to edit my post with exactly that, that is correct. 500K/year is probably top 2%?
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by ryandrake on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @01:58AM (#25642900)
The elite are not the ones making a tech salary and spending 1/4 of it on their rent. The elite are the few who are writing those tech salary paychecks.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @09:36AM (#25645906)
Agreed. The difference between the top .01% and top 2% is many magnitudes larger than the difference between those 2% and the other 98%. (Sorry no source.). But both seem to contribute to the increasing inequality.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by esoterica on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @12:41PM (#25648270)
I bet the people making $7.25 an hour would consider the $500k/year FAANG crowd pretty elite. Also if you own enough tech stock then you are also kind of writing the paychecks.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by detaro on Monday January 04, 2021 @10:02PM (#25641553)
That's a small part even of the people here.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by cratermoon on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:43PM (#25638583)
And yet they are. Petite bourgeoisie and all that.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by babaganoosh89 on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:19PM (#25638219)
The problem isn't comparative advantage, it's that the US left the poor states to languish with poor education. So instead of higher quality manufacturing / blue collar jobs, non-educated folks got minimum wage service jobs.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by recursivedoubts on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:32PM (#25638409)
The US is at or near the top of all western countries on educational spending per student:

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by formerly_proven on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:40PM (#25638532)
The US also has the highest spending in health care per capita.

Spending does not equal outcomes.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by recursivedoubts on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:47PM (#25638628)
Yes, I agree. But the comment implied neglect, which is false. Our education system is a mess, but it's not due to neglect, and it doesn't have anything to do with manufacturing being shipped abroad.

As a side note, the US has the second highest public spending per capita (second only to Norway, last I checked). Our Government spends more per citizen than all but one "socialist" country. We then of course spend another doubling of that in private expenditures, and, yes, get worse outcomes.

The US is in a very bad spot.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by s1artibartfast on Monday January 04, 2021 @07:54PM (#25640532)
While I am generally sympathetic to the education and healthcare points, I would be interested in seeing the public spending per capita after defense spending.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by recursivedoubts on Monday January 04, 2021 @08:00PM (#25640576)
I should have been clearer: that is public spending on healthcare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by s1artibartfast on Monday January 04, 2021 @08:09PM (#25640641)
Thanks for clarifying.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by greedo on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:08PM (#25638924)
How much of that public spending is on the prison industrial complex? On "law and order?" Not all public spending is equal.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by recursivedoubts on Monday January 04, 2021 @08:00PM (#25640572)
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by anonunivgrad on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:47PM (#25638645)
There are not enough "higher quality manufacturing / blue collar jobs." The US has embraced an economic model of outsourcing manufacturing and shifting to an economy based around intellectual property, finance, and other knowledge work. What's left is low-skill, low-pay service jobs, where outsourcing is not possible, but where technology is instead the threat.

And knowledge jobs are jobs for smart people. Most people are not smart enough to do those jobs and no amount of money spent on education (the US spends more than almost every other western country, at every level) can change that.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by jhallenworld on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:16PM (#25639038)
Yeah, think very carefully before having kids. What kind of life will they have in this country if they are not technical elites of some kind? In the old days, you always needed labor for the farm or factory, but not anymore..
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by 908B64B197 on Monday January 04, 2021 @07:31PM (#25640350)
> the US left the poor states to languish with poor education

Why didn't state funding pick up the tab?

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by iphorde on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:17PM (#25638189)
Those Elites are back in power in a few days. Enjoy it. America voted for it.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by adamnemecek on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:17PM (#25638202)
The elites have been in power since idk when.
[dead]
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by krapp on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:30PM (#25638375)
Right... because Trump was the one billionaire who was actually not an elite, and not on the side of the elites, and really for real interested in destroying the elite power structure. The guy who wouldn't even pay his own employees or contractors was a hero of the common man. The guy just caught on tape trying to shake down Georgia's Secretary of State to "find" votes ... he's the only honest man in a den of vipers.

I assume you're trolling but the sad thing is, it's impossible to tell anymore.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by gregkerzhner on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:30PM (#25638374)
I would say that Trump's ability to convince people he is knocking down the elites, and instead using the office to benefit both his elite self and his elite inner circle is his greatest hustle, but actually, its quiet an ordinary move that elites have been pulling since the start of time.

I feel like to really knock down the elites, you need someone who is not elite. However, anyone who rises to this kind of status by definition becomes elite even if they weren't before, so it's kind of a self fulfilling failure. True revolution can probably only come from many non elite people seeking the same goal. This kind of revolution would most likely be squashed by someone elite.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by iphorde on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:38PM (#25638514)
So you're a radical. You want revolution, not reform. Got it.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by gregkerzhner on Monday January 04, 2021 @06:16PM (#25639622)
Hey now, I never said I wanted anything! But it's hard to believe that removing the elites from power is going to be a simple reform. The most powerful, established and connected people in government aren't going to simply walk away, it would take a major disruption.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by deeeeplearning on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:31PM (#25638386)
Can you a name a single member of his cabinet that isn't in fact one of these "Elites"? It's full of Harvard MBAs, Wall Street bankers and Swamp Creatures. You are delusional.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by adamnemecek on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:27PM (#25639151)
Which elites did he knock down besides maybe the Clinton?
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by nikanj on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:59PM (#25637904)
The stock market and housing prices are higher than ever, so a large part of the population is doing good. Not just the elites have benefited from the spoils, people with retirement portfolios and paid-off houses are sitting nice and flush.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by habosa on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:06PM (#25638032)
84% of wealth in the stock market is in the hands of the top 10%

Not sure about housing.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Kranar on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:14PM (#25638160)
I did not believe this to be true, but after researching it turns out that your figure is accurate for 2016 and that it's likely only gotten worse since then.

Page 19 of this document produced by the NBER states that indeed, the wealthiest 10% own 84% of all publicly traded stocks, mutual funds, trusts, or various pension account assets:

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w24085/w240...

It has many other interesting insights that are worth quickly reading through, for example you mention you are unsure about housing, but that report says the top 10% own 41% of all housing in the U.S.

The other interesting figure is debt, where the top 10% owe 28% of all debt.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by WillPostForFood on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:20PM (#25638241)
67.4% of Americans own a home. You don't need to be in the be in the top 10% to benefit.

https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/currenthvspress.pdf

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by ALittleLight on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:30PM (#25638365)
That's not exactly what "home ownership rate" means. Home ownership rate is the proportion of occupied homes which are owned by their occupants. If your town has one hundred occupied homes, then 67 of those occupied homes would be owned (or being paid for on mortgagee) by the people living inside.

Adult children living at home, adults living in homes with roommates, people underwater on their mortgage, etc would all count towards a higher home ownership rate.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by WillPostForFood on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:46PM (#25639339)
Rising housing prices help people underwater on their mortgage get above water.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:32PM (#25638404)
I wouldn’t call ownership a benefit for the 71% of home owners with a mortgage.

> Zillow’s Negative Equity 2012 Q3 data; we find 29% (20.6 million) of homeowners own their home outright

https://www.zillow.com/research/free-and-clear-american-mort...

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by cratermoon on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:51PM (#25638710)
At least one Nobel prize-winning economist has noted that home ownership is not all that it's made out to be.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-10-15/the-econo...

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by WillPostForFood on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:51PM (#25639394)
Just flip it around, would plummeting housing prices benefit homeowners with a mortgage? No, that's a disaster (see the 2007 housing crash). Borrowing, especially at the extreme low rates, on an appreciating asset is great, paying debt on a depreciating asset is a nightmare.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @06:38PM (#25639807)
Flip what around? A mortgage doesn’t give you the benefits of being wealthy. Whether the market is good or bad. Anyway, the point is moot as the parent report shows the top 10% also own 41% of the houses, so the initial argument stands that the wealthy are benefiting the most.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:17PM (#25638203)
Thanks for the link. I’m on mobile and only got a second hand source on my comment below. I totally agree it must be worse now. It would be interesting to see the latest numbers.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by esoterica on Monday January 04, 2021 @08:17PM (#25640728)
10% of the population is 33 million people. There's a sleight-of-hand going on here where people whine about a tiny number of billionaires and CEOs screwing over the masses and then point to statistics that actual show the average upper middle class household doing very well.

I bet a large fraction of the posters on here who complain about being oppressed by economic inequality are themselves part of the top 10% too (and have benefited greatly from the trend towards more inequality).

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @09:56PM (#25641495)
Quit down playing the inequality. Let me make the math easier. Of 10 people, one owns 86% of the stock. The other 9 fight for the other 14%. You are trying to justify that and it’s unfortunate. Also, the few billionaires are still very much a problem. However, the top 10% still displays a large inequality, quite the opposite of “doing very well”. And, I’m glad there are 10%’ers who are pro-equality, they aren’t complaining about being oppressed. They are displaying solidarity with the less fortunate and I hope they are showing it by voting for pro equality measures and politicians (an oxy-moron, I know, but there’s a few good ones).
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by ryandrake on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:03AM (#25642934)
More like one owns 86% of the stock, 4.5 own no stock at all, and the remaining 4.5 fight it out.

45% of Americans do not own a shred of stock at all, including indirectly through mutual funds or retirement accounts [1].

1: https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-own...

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @09:41AM (#25645965)
True, it’s hard to relate to the people defending the status quo in these comments. I think I am usually pretty good at understanding the other side of the argument, but tough for me here.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by npmaile on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:18PM (#25638208)
Much of that stock market wealth is tied up in the retirement accounts of people who are about to retire or are retired. A large portion of it is the elites without a doubt, but much of it is just people who've been contributing to a 401k for the last 50 years. Obviously they should both be in the upper percentages of income/wealth as well as own much of the stock market. They've been contributing for years and years.
[dead]
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:42PM (#25638574)
Yea, it IS true. Do you have a source? The comment above you has a source that includes

> the wealthiest 10% own 84% of all publicly traded stocks, mutual funds, trusts, or various pension account assets

Looks like pensions are included and mutual funds which are likely a majority of 401Ks.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by glial on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:42PM (#25638566)
> Most of the money in the markets are from the average Joe's 401k, or pension.

Can you provide a source for that? I looked for one and couldn’t find one, but if you had one I would love to read it.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Mc_Big_G on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:44PM (#25638591)
>Most of the money in the markets are from the average Joe's 401k, or pension

This is just an assertion.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by xyzzyz on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:10PM (#25638107)
Can you provide source for these numbers?
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by renewiltord on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:36PM (#25638470)
It's always interesting to me when people react like this to an internet comment without sharing any research they did themselves.

To me a forum like this is like when I'd be sitting around in uni wondering aloud about some problem and someone will say "Well, maybe if you use the fact that the functions which invert the sign of the √2 and √3 parts in Q(√2, √3) are automorphisms, then you can see that the group containing them and their composition is just Z2×Z2".

The truth of that part isn't important. It's the fact that it's a good faith hint. It's my job to go find the truth given this mild heuristic.

They're the ones doing me the favour so I have to contribute in order to get more information. In this case, I can attempt to find an error in the proof or to ask clarification. But if I were to ask them to write out a proof then I'm being a fool and I'll get fewer hints from them in future.

I noticed that most people who really know their field don't cite their assertions. It makes sense. So now I'm not surprised when people don't provide a citation. It's just a hint. They didn't sign up to be my tutor.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by xyzzyz on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:12PM (#25638984)
It's always interesting to me when people react like this to an internet comment without sharing any research they did themselves.

I didn't do any particular research here, because it conflicts with the preexisting knowledge I have about the subject, and because my experience tells me that figures like these, which can be, and especially when they actually are used to further political narrative, are often misleading, and/or wrong. However, I didn't want to accuse the commenter of any bias or misconduct, hence I phrased my question to leave out my skepticism.

The truth of that part isn't important. It's the fact that it's a good faith hint.

You actually hit the spot: you can assume good faith when sitting around in uni and asking people to help you calculate Galois groups. You cannot assume good faith when talking to strangers online on politically charged topics: even if they are themselves operating in good faith, it is highly likely that they were fed, as you call them, "hints", by bad faith actors. Hence, I ask for sources.

I noticed that most people who really know their field don't cite their assertions. It makes sense. So now I'm not surprised when people don't provide a citation.

That's because they can rely on their authority and experience to establish trust, and they have reputation to protect in case their assertions are actually completely wrong. None of this is true when talking to random, anonymous people online.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:11PM (#25638113)
I was about to comment the same. The parent saying “not just the elites have benefited” is ignorant.

https://money.com/stock-ownership-10-percent-richest/

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by nicoburns on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:10PM (#25638103)
So there's also a generational divide. This isn't a good thing.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Kranar on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:21PM (#25638258)
Well of course there is a generational divide and it's a great thing and exactly what one should expect.

Someone who is 60 years old has had approximately 30-35 years worth of time to invest and accumulate assets compared to someone 30 years old who has only had 5-10 years worth of time.

What would you have expected to see in the alternative?

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by nicoburns on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:23PM (#25638280)
At least in the UK it's a lot more uneven than that. House prices have increased far far above inflation over the 20th century (not entirely evenly). So those who invested in property at low prices are now sitting on large nest eggs, while young people are unable to make similar investments as they are already priced out of the market.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Kranar on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:35PM (#25638464)
Sure but that's because a house in London is a fundamentally different asset today than it was say 30-40 years ago. I live in Toronto and people in my generation complain about housing prices here as well, that their parents bought a house for super cheap back in the 70s and 80s and now they have no chance to afford anything.

What's not discussed is that these cities were much smaller back then, had far fewer services both private and government, had much higher crime and pollution and a host of issues that have all been substantially ameliorated over the decades, specifically the 90s.

If people want the experience that their parents had to find cheap housing, then they have to move to a location that is in a similar state today that London or Toronto was in 30 years ago. Those places do exist and there's no shortage of affordable and cheap housing in Canada, many parts of the U.S., and I suspect the UK.

The problem is that what people my generation really want are all the benefits that have come over the past 3-4 decades without the cost of paying for those benefits, and that's just not likely to happen.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @08:13PM (#25640674)
Right, good luck predicting and buying a house in the next London. Just like my stock pick is going to be the One in 30 years.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by nikanj on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @03:10AM (#25643311)
Asking without irony: What place in Canada today would be equal to Toronto in the 1990s?
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Kranar on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @12:17PM (#25659792)
1990s? Ottawa, Edmonton, maybe the Waterloo region.

But there are also places like Calgary, Winnipeg, London and Halifax that are smaller, much more affordable, and have a decent standard of living. The issue is that if you compare Halifax or Winnipeg to Toronto it's a no brainer that Toronto is just significantly ahead in development, but it's not like people in Halifax are struggling to find work, or are poor or living in bad conditions. There are plenty of good places across Canada to raise a family and enjoy a good standard of living.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by berkeleyjunk on Thursday January 07, 2021 @01:37PM (#25675230)
Montreal is significantly cheaper than Toronto (even though prices have picked up in the past 5 years or so) and would provide something similar to Toronto 90's prices with arguably similar services.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by seneca on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:24PM (#25638292)
> So there's also a generational divide. This isn't a good thing.

This almost reads like satire. You're saying it's a problem that people who have worked their entire life have more wealth than people who have more recently begun their career?

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by BitwiseFool on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:06PM (#25638035)
I won't dispute that retirement portfolios and people with real estate have done quite well. But I personally think that many of these people are only doing well on-paper. This is only speculation, and you may rightfully call me a doomer, but I feel like most of this wealth is virtual.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by jonkho on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:32PM (#25638408)
Hard assets such as real estate and buildings are hardly considered virtual. More real than printed up dollars I’d say.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by cpursley on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:26PM (#25638315)
Paid off houses? Mortgage rates are under 3% meaning people doing well can deploy that savings and cash into the stock market, other investments, furthering the wealth gap. No reason to pay off property when money is this cheap.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by jbay808 on Monday January 04, 2021 @07:18PM (#25640228)
"Higher" is measured in dollars, so isn't a high stock market and housing price consistent with the US dollar simply decreasing in value?

If wages haven't risen in proportion, then this doesn't seem like a win.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by minimuffins on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:40PM (#25638534)
> The stock market and housing prices are higher than ever, so a large part of the population is doing good.

confusing the map for the terrain

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by jefurii on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:09PM (#25638092)
> people with retirement portfolios and paid-off houses

That's definitely not everyone.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by boringg on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:02PM (#25637974)
Also a pretty broad brush to paint a whole "class" of people that being the "elites".