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Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by nikanj on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:59PM (#25637904)
The stock market and housing prices are higher than ever, so a large part of the population is doing good. Not just the elites have benefited from the spoils, people with retirement portfolios and paid-off houses are sitting nice and flush.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by habosa on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:06PM (#25638032)
84% of wealth in the stock market is in the hands of the top 10%

Not sure about housing.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Kranar on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:14PM (#25638160)
I did not believe this to be true, but after researching it turns out that your figure is accurate for 2016 and that it's likely only gotten worse since then.

Page 19 of this document produced by the NBER states that indeed, the wealthiest 10% own 84% of all publicly traded stocks, mutual funds, trusts, or various pension account assets:

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w24085/w240...

It has many other interesting insights that are worth quickly reading through, for example you mention you are unsure about housing, but that report says the top 10% own 41% of all housing in the U.S.

The other interesting figure is debt, where the top 10% owe 28% of all debt.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by WillPostForFood on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:20PM (#25638241)
67.4% of Americans own a home. You don't need to be in the be in the top 10% to benefit.

https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/currenthvspress.pdf

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by ALittleLight on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:30PM (#25638365)
That's not exactly what "home ownership rate" means. Home ownership rate is the proportion of occupied homes which are owned by their occupants. If your town has one hundred occupied homes, then 67 of those occupied homes would be owned (or being paid for on mortgagee) by the people living inside.

Adult children living at home, adults living in homes with roommates, people underwater on their mortgage, etc would all count towards a higher home ownership rate.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by WillPostForFood on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:46PM (#25639339)
Rising housing prices help people underwater on their mortgage get above water.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:32PM (#25638404)
I wouldn’t call ownership a benefit for the 71% of home owners with a mortgage.

> Zillow’s Negative Equity 2012 Q3 data; we find 29% (20.6 million) of homeowners own their home outright

https://www.zillow.com/research/free-and-clear-american-mort...

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by cratermoon on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:51PM (#25638710)
At least one Nobel prize-winning economist has noted that home ownership is not all that it's made out to be.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-10-15/the-econo...

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by WillPostForFood on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:51PM (#25639394)
Just flip it around, would plummeting housing prices benefit homeowners with a mortgage? No, that's a disaster (see the 2007 housing crash). Borrowing, especially at the extreme low rates, on an appreciating asset is great, paying debt on a depreciating asset is a nightmare.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @06:38PM (#25639807)
Flip what around? A mortgage doesn’t give you the benefits of being wealthy. Whether the market is good or bad. Anyway, the point is moot as the parent report shows the top 10% also own 41% of the houses, so the initial argument stands that the wealthy are benefiting the most.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:17PM (#25638203)
Thanks for the link. I’m on mobile and only got a second hand source on my comment below. I totally agree it must be worse now. It would be interesting to see the latest numbers.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by esoterica on Monday January 04, 2021 @08:17PM (#25640728)
10% of the population is 33 million people. There's a sleight-of-hand going on here where people whine about a tiny number of billionaires and CEOs screwing over the masses and then point to statistics that actual show the average upper middle class household doing very well.

I bet a large fraction of the posters on here who complain about being oppressed by economic inequality are themselves part of the top 10% too (and have benefited greatly from the trend towards more inequality).

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @09:56PM (#25641495)
Quit down playing the inequality. Let me make the math easier. Of 10 people, one owns 86% of the stock. The other 9 fight for the other 14%. You are trying to justify that and it’s unfortunate. Also, the few billionaires are still very much a problem. However, the top 10% still displays a large inequality, quite the opposite of “doing very well”. And, I’m glad there are 10%’ers who are pro-equality, they aren’t complaining about being oppressed. They are displaying solidarity with the less fortunate and I hope they are showing it by voting for pro equality measures and politicians (an oxy-moron, I know, but there’s a few good ones).
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by ryandrake on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @02:03AM (#25642934)
More like one owns 86% of the stock, 4.5 own no stock at all, and the remaining 4.5 fight it out.

45% of Americans do not own a shred of stock at all, including indirectly through mutual funds or retirement accounts [1].

1: https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-own...

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @09:41AM (#25645965)
True, it’s hard to relate to the people defending the status quo in these comments. I think I am usually pretty good at understanding the other side of the argument, but tough for me here.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by npmaile on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:18PM (#25638208)
Much of that stock market wealth is tied up in the retirement accounts of people who are about to retire or are retired. A large portion of it is the elites without a doubt, but much of it is just people who've been contributing to a 401k for the last 50 years. Obviously they should both be in the upper percentages of income/wealth as well as own much of the stock market. They've been contributing for years and years.
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Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:42PM (#25638574)
Yea, it IS true. Do you have a source? The comment above you has a source that includes

> the wealthiest 10% own 84% of all publicly traded stocks, mutual funds, trusts, or various pension account assets

Looks like pensions are included and mutual funds which are likely a majority of 401Ks.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by glial on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:42PM (#25638566)
> Most of the money in the markets are from the average Joe's 401k, or pension.

Can you provide a source for that? I looked for one and couldn’t find one, but if you had one I would love to read it.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Mc_Big_G on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:44PM (#25638591)
>Most of the money in the markets are from the average Joe's 401k, or pension

This is just an assertion.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by xyzzyz on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:10PM (#25638107)
Can you provide source for these numbers?
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by renewiltord on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:36PM (#25638470)
It's always interesting to me when people react like this to an internet comment without sharing any research they did themselves.

To me a forum like this is like when I'd be sitting around in uni wondering aloud about some problem and someone will say "Well, maybe if you use the fact that the functions which invert the sign of the √2 and √3 parts in Q(√2, √3) are automorphisms, then you can see that the group containing them and their composition is just Z2×Z2".

The truth of that part isn't important. It's the fact that it's a good faith hint. It's my job to go find the truth given this mild heuristic.

They're the ones doing me the favour so I have to contribute in order to get more information. In this case, I can attempt to find an error in the proof or to ask clarification. But if I were to ask them to write out a proof then I'm being a fool and I'll get fewer hints from them in future.

I noticed that most people who really know their field don't cite their assertions. It makes sense. So now I'm not surprised when people don't provide a citation. It's just a hint. They didn't sign up to be my tutor.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by xyzzyz on Monday January 04, 2021 @05:12PM (#25638984)
It's always interesting to me when people react like this to an internet comment without sharing any research they did themselves.

I didn't do any particular research here, because it conflicts with the preexisting knowledge I have about the subject, and because my experience tells me that figures like these, which can be, and especially when they actually are used to further political narrative, are often misleading, and/or wrong. However, I didn't want to accuse the commenter of any bias or misconduct, hence I phrased my question to leave out my skepticism.

The truth of that part isn't important. It's the fact that it's a good faith hint.

You actually hit the spot: you can assume good faith when sitting around in uni and asking people to help you calculate Galois groups. You cannot assume good faith when talking to strangers online on politically charged topics: even if they are themselves operating in good faith, it is highly likely that they were fed, as you call them, "hints", by bad faith actors. Hence, I ask for sources.

I noticed that most people who really know their field don't cite their assertions. It makes sense. So now I'm not surprised when people don't provide a citation.

That's because they can rely on their authority and experience to establish trust, and they have reputation to protect in case their assertions are actually completely wrong. None of this is true when talking to random, anonymous people online.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:11PM (#25638113)
I was about to comment the same. The parent saying “not just the elites have benefited” is ignorant.

https://money.com/stock-ownership-10-percent-richest/

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by nicoburns on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:10PM (#25638103)
So there's also a generational divide. This isn't a good thing.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Kranar on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:21PM (#25638258)
Well of course there is a generational divide and it's a great thing and exactly what one should expect.

Someone who is 60 years old has had approximately 30-35 years worth of time to invest and accumulate assets compared to someone 30 years old who has only had 5-10 years worth of time.

What would you have expected to see in the alternative?

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by nicoburns on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:23PM (#25638280)
At least in the UK it's a lot more uneven than that. House prices have increased far far above inflation over the 20th century (not entirely evenly). So those who invested in property at low prices are now sitting on large nest eggs, while young people are unable to make similar investments as they are already priced out of the market.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Kranar on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:35PM (#25638464)
Sure but that's because a house in London is a fundamentally different asset today than it was say 30-40 years ago. I live in Toronto and people in my generation complain about housing prices here as well, that their parents bought a house for super cheap back in the 70s and 80s and now they have no chance to afford anything.

What's not discussed is that these cities were much smaller back then, had far fewer services both private and government, had much higher crime and pollution and a host of issues that have all been substantially ameliorated over the decades, specifically the 90s.

If people want the experience that their parents had to find cheap housing, then they have to move to a location that is in a similar state today that London or Toronto was in 30 years ago. Those places do exist and there's no shortage of affordable and cheap housing in Canada, many parts of the U.S., and I suspect the UK.

The problem is that what people my generation really want are all the benefits that have come over the past 3-4 decades without the cost of paying for those benefits, and that's just not likely to happen.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by l3v3ll on Monday January 04, 2021 @08:13PM (#25640674)
Right, good luck predicting and buying a house in the next London. Just like my stock pick is going to be the One in 30 years.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by nikanj on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @03:10AM (#25643311)
Asking without irony: What place in Canada today would be equal to Toronto in the 1990s?
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by Kranar on Wednesday January 06, 2021 @12:17PM (#25659792)
1990s? Ottawa, Edmonton, maybe the Waterloo region.

But there are also places like Calgary, Winnipeg, London and Halifax that are smaller, much more affordable, and have a decent standard of living. The issue is that if you compare Halifax or Winnipeg to Toronto it's a no brainer that Toronto is just significantly ahead in development, but it's not like people in Halifax are struggling to find work, or are poor or living in bad conditions. There are plenty of good places across Canada to raise a family and enjoy a good standard of living.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by berkeleyjunk on Thursday January 07, 2021 @01:37PM (#25675230)
Montreal is significantly cheaper than Toronto (even though prices have picked up in the past 5 years or so) and would provide something similar to Toronto 90's prices with arguably similar services.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by seneca on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:24PM (#25638292)
> So there's also a generational divide. This isn't a good thing.

This almost reads like satire. You're saying it's a problem that people who have worked their entire life have more wealth than people who have more recently begun their career?

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by BitwiseFool on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:06PM (#25638035)
I won't dispute that retirement portfolios and people with real estate have done quite well. But I personally think that many of these people are only doing well on-paper. This is only speculation, and you may rightfully call me a doomer, but I feel like most of this wealth is virtual.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by jonkho on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:32PM (#25638408)
Hard assets such as real estate and buildings are hardly considered virtual. More real than printed up dollars I’d say.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by cpursley on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:26PM (#25638315)
Paid off houses? Mortgage rates are under 3% meaning people doing well can deploy that savings and cash into the stock market, other investments, furthering the wealth gap. No reason to pay off property when money is this cheap.
Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by jbay808 on Monday January 04, 2021 @07:18PM (#25640228)
"Higher" is measured in dollars, so isn't a high stock market and housing price consistent with the US dollar simply decreasing in value?

If wages haven't risen in proportion, then this doesn't seem like a win.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by minimuffins on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:40PM (#25638534)
> The stock market and housing prices are higher than ever, so a large part of the population is doing good.

confusing the map for the terrain

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by jefurii on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:09PM (#25638092)
> people with retirement portfolios and paid-off houses

That's definitely not everyone.

Re:America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented by boringg on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:02PM (#25637974)
Also a pretty broad brush to paint a whole "class" of people that being the "elites".