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Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by Snoozus on Sunday January 03, 2021 @01:53PM (#25624009)
I have this suspicion that mobile ads have way weaker effect than claimed. No-one in adtech has any interest in finding out. Marketers don't want to lose budgets or importance either. So a lot of money is wasted on annoying people. How sad.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by chrisdinn on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:14PM (#25624204)
I think the problem is that the overwhelming majority of digital ad formats just don’t work. Does anyone who works in digital ad tech genuinely believe that these formats work? I have been here for the last ten years and have come to believe they do not, certainly not comparable like traditional linear TV or print in their heydays.

There are exceptions. I think Google search ad works so well it’s eating the product. I think YouTube’s TrueView is great for modern brand advertisers (safety issues aside). But by and large, banner ads, forced video pre-rolls, etc don’t work. The negative message of the format offsets any message you try to convey.

Yes, fraud is a part of this. But I think a lot of this evidence looks the same as if none of their targeted, performance-based advertising was doing anything at all, beside really weak branding.

Genuinely interested to hear from people who disagree.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by wasdfff on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:07PM (#25625247)
Instagram ads for millenials are like flies to honey in my anecdotal experience. So many of my peers buy their furniture, dress shoes, clothing, water bottles, watches, dog leashes, pretty much everything in their lives from seeing some like-aged person use that thing on an instagram ad (and the product usually being pretty cheap). It blows my mind how successful these dime a dozen drop shipping companies based on instagram are with millenials and gen z, and buying like this will only be more normalized in the future as more people know someone who got something nice from that instagram ad.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by spideymans on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:57PM (#25625624)
>It blows my mind how successful these dime a dozen drop shipping companies based on instagram are with millenials and gen z, and buying like this will only be more normalized in the future as more people know someone who got something nice from that instagram ad.

Especially with stay-at-home orders due to the pandemic, everyone (well, not everyone... but hyperbole) now has their own drop shipping brands operated out of their basements, all selling the same cheap products off of AliExpress. Will consumers catch on to what is going on? Do they even care?

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by MivLives on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:27PM (#25625405)
Yeah I've noticed I've even been drawn to something because of the mindless scroll to that's pretty neat, the button to buy it is right in front of me.

I suspect this really only works for more novelty things like clothing that are cheap enough to enough to impulse buy and of interest to image conscious people.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by cm2012 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:23PM (#25624309)
Facebook and IG ads work. I agree that display network ads do not.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by chrisdinn on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:25PM (#25624334)
Ya for sure. I was a Googler so my examples were biased, these aren't the only ad formats that work but there are fewer than most people (even in ad tech) realize.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by cm2012 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:51PM (#25624589)
Yep, even FB "audience network" ads suck and are fraud ridden. Newsfeed is a fundamentally great format for ads.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by 2sk21 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @03:39PM (#25625005)
However I have not logged into FB in six months because the actual content in my newsfeed is so toxic. I wonder if this will cause things to change, although it seems unlikely.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by trthomps on Sunday January 03, 2021 @07:01PM (#25626516)
I last logged into FB in 2017... never going back.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by staticassertion on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:38PM (#25624443)
Mobile devices tend not to have adblockers, so exposure might be a lot higher.

Also, the only ads I've clicked are mobile ads. I've even installed apps via ad before - I've never once purchased an item from an ad online (but I've also run an adblocker for a decade).

Ads certainly "work" by some metric, and some definition of "work", but I think the metric and definition is unclear.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by chrisdinn on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:42PM (#25624484)
I think CTD ads (click-to-download) are one of the exceptions. It's a great format for some cases, eg games. For game devs, trust that yours is addicting enough that you can safely show your users a competitor's game knowing they'll come back to you. For players, you were looking to play a game anyway and maybe you want to try something new. Click, download and play that instead.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by jackcosgrove on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:58PM (#25624666)
The only ads I click on are mobile ads, and that's because many times the X to close them is too small. Other times the ad is jumping around my screen and it steals my fingerpress.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by qwerty456127 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:18PM (#25624252)
> overwhelming majority of digital ad formats just don’t work

Doesn't it? It may have miserable conversion rate, limited target audience but it apparently is commercially viable. People would hardly spend money on sending e-mail spam in 2020 if it didn't work.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by kbar13 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:26PM (#25624346)
if you read the twitter thread we see that uber was spending 10x more money than they should have on ads simply because they weren't auditing where their money was going towards.

so there's evidence that people (incl uber, a market leader) do indeed spend money on ads even when it does nothing

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by Hnrobert42 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:37PM (#25624440)
I got 0.66x, as in $100M out of $150M. I likely missed something. Where did you see 10x?
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by chrisdinn on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:44PM (#25624509)
$100M was labelled "fraud" in this example, but there was more waste uncovered in the remaining $50M that didn't get that label.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by chrisdinn on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:22PM (#25624307)
I thought that at first. But like the original post points out, Uber was spending a lot of money, not just in absolute terms but in percentage terms, and it wasn't working for them.

There's an allure to making something measurable and setting goals against it. Often, those goals take on a life of their own. That's what I am suggesting happened here, I guess.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by redisman on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:46PM (#25624532)
Mobile games run on this. They have a target user acquisition cost and spend based on that. It seems to work for some very profitable companies. People shouldn’t try to over read into this. Businesses can’t run on irrationality for very long
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by qwerty456127 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @07:25PM (#25626658)
Indeed. Mobile games. Perhaps the people who play mobile games probably would click an ad of another alike game or otherwise related content. They usually aren't mindful enough to prefer finding and choosing exactly what they need over just clicking an ad.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by rightbyte on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:05PM (#25625231)
How do we not know that the spam is sent out by one sucker after the next that go until they realize it is not worth it?
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by georgeecollins on Sunday January 03, 2021 @06:55PM (#25626482)
Digital advertising is super effective for mobile ftp games. It is not a question if they work, it’s a question if the game can earn enough to justify the cost. Companies in that space have a super smart team of economists and data scientist constantly checking when a mobile app is worth advertising.

Someone in this thread said no one has proved to them that digital ads are ever worth it. My experience is that when they are you don’t want to advertise it to potential competitors or the people who carry your ads.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by wpietri on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:50PM (#25624579)
Makes sense to me.

CEO: "We need to do something about growth!"

Marketer: "Mobile ads are something!"

CEO: "I read those are hot. Here's a bucket of money! Do lots of something so we have lots of growth!"

[spending ensues]

As the Uber story shows, a lot of money gets spent without anybody making sure that it actually works. The actual goal is not to have an effect. It's to be seen as taking bold action. If the business gets better, bonuses and promotions ensue, no matter what the actual cause. Cargo cult management.

It sounds insane, but I'm sure it's rife. Years ago I was coaching at a Lean Startup weekend class. One team really killed it, rapidly testing product hypotheses through real-world testing. Their initial idea was quickly proven worthless, but they listened to users and came up with an idea that would sell.

I kept in touch with one of those team members. He went back to his prominent, well-funded startup, excited to improve his company. But nobody wanted improvement. Execs wanted to sit in a big room, think big thoughts, and produce specs. The engineers were to implement those specs. But nobody would measure the effects of anything. Proof that a grand poobah's idea didn't actually pan out was deeply unwelcome. It slowly drove my pal mad and he quit. The company bumped along for a few years to a modest acquisition, but it never really lived up to the hopes.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by PragmaticPulp on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:03PM (#25625228)
Engaging random marketing consultants is a good way to waste money on ads.

However, anyone engineering for advertising from the start of your distribution plans should be able to measure these things. It’s not hard to track which signups came from ad clicks versus organic traffic. The problem is that most companies start out focused on their apps and simply assume advertising is a totally independent function that happens elsewhere in the company. Invest some time into including advertising as part of your signup process and it’s really not that difficult to track LTV of customers who signed up via ads.

In fact, that’s how Uber confirmed this fraud. They noticed that some of these fake customers were clicking on the ads and getting signed up within seconds, which is something only bots can pull off. If the customers you’re getting from ad signups aren’t actually spending money in the app, you should know about this from basic analytics.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by Snoozus on Sunday January 03, 2021 @06:12PM (#25626181)
Even if you do this the ad-people will claim that showing people ads repeatedly will make them buy your product eventually. Maybe when they actually need such a product. At this point you cannot connect the events anymore. This effect is probably weak but not falsifiable.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by bastawhiz on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:30PM (#25624383)
I've been playing a silly phone game for about a month now. Only last week I realized it has ads: I'd become so ad-blind that I completely ignored the banner ad they keep at the bottom of the window at all times. I only noticed it because it flickered when transitioning to another ad.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by janmo on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:15PM (#25624221)
Interestingly mobile ads are typically cheaper to buy than desktop ones.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by jayd16 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:09PM (#25624151)
I'm certain they do want to find out. Adtech still wants to know where paying users are even if the total is less than they'd like to claim.