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Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by 11thEarlOfMar on Sunday December 27, 2020 @08:08PM (#25555770)
Whenever I contemplate this, I always return to the notion of concurrence. Any sentient alien life we'd hope to encounter alive will need to exist at the same (relative) time that we do. The Earth is 4.5 Billion years old. Man has existed as 'man' for about 5 million years. That's 0.1% of the age of Earth. If alien species evolved in a similar manner, but 0.1% faster or slower, we'd miss them by millions of years.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by kumarvvr on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:10PM (#25556082)
Proof of aliens need not be actual living specimens.

Left over artifacts from their civilizations are just as exciting a find.

Personally, I feel the thought that we are alone in this universe is a wee bit arrogant.

The universe is so big and existed for so long, we have to assume that sentient life existed in the past, perhaps exists now and will definitely exist in the future.

Hopefully, we find at least artifacts that prove alien life, just because the minds of humans expand a bit more, because imagine how shocking it is to religions around the world if existence of aliens is confirmed.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by disconcision on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:50PM (#25556256)
i hear this argument constantly, but i've never been able to understand it. you say the universe is big and has existed for a long time, but compared to what? if i say the universe is small and new, how would you counter that? i don't mean to come across as aggressive, but if there's any arrogance on this issue, i'd suspect it lies in thinking we have enough information to come to any meaningful position on the issue.

the most convincing meta-analysis i've seen, which considers the probability distributions implied by the error bars in our current best estimates of the relevant parameters (https://arxiv.org/pdf/1806.02404.pdf), suggests a 39–85% chance we are alone in the observable universe. i'm less impressed by those particular numbers than by the attempt to rigorously quantify our ignorance on the issue, where some component values span fifty orders of magnitude. while the universe may indeed be big, i'm not sure it's broader than the sheer span of our ignorance.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:04PM (#25556314)
> i hear this argument constantly, but i've never been able to understand it. you say the universe is big and has existed for a long time, but compared to what? if i say the universe is small and new, how would you counter that? i don't mean to come across as aggressive, but if there's any arrogance on this issue, i'd suspect it lies in thinking we have enough information to come to any meaningful position on the issue.

Basically, the universe is so ludicrously huge and so ludicrously old that it is as close to statistically impossible as one can imagine that human beings are the only things ever to evolve in such circumstances as to be sapient.

Note that the paper you have linked uses the term "detectable civilization", which is significant limitation due to our current level of technology, the age of the universe, and the propagation speed of light. It wasn't that long ago that we couldn't even detect extra-solar planets.

There is of course an argument to be made for us being "alone" in the universe in the sense that sapience is rare enough that pretty much all species, including ourselves, will die out before ever meeting another sapience, but the idea that in all the unimaginable vastness of the universe we are the only ones?

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by mewpmewp2 on Monday December 28, 2020 @01:53AM (#25557312)
Without specific numbers and calculating chance of life like ours to occur I don't see how you can confidently make such claims. It could very well be the case that even for a universe this large, it was a statistical anomaly for it to have life. Maybe out of 1000 similar universes only 1 would happen to have life. How can you tell the odds so confidently?

Maybe even out of 1,000,000,000 of similar universes only 1 would actually happen to have life. It's similar with planets. If you only know of 1 planet within 1B to have life, how can you tell the odds are not low enough to have 1 universe out of 1B to have life?

This could be an awesome example of survivorship bias to assume because there's life here, there must be life elsewhere in the universe too. We only have experience with a planet where there's life, so we are innately biased to think that it might be more frequent occurrence than it really is.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by astrea on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:17PM (#25556383)
Other than arguing that the infiniteness of the universe somehow indubitably lends credence to the emergence of some convergent sentience, could you or anyone point to something a bit more rigorous (such as the paper your parent comment linked to)?
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:45PM (#25556497)
We are aware of the evolution of one sapience in the universe. What argument do you provide that suggests this is such a mind bogglingly unique occurrence that it cannot have happened anywhere else in the universe's volume of over 400,000Gly^3 at any time during its age of 13.8 Gyr?

In other words, the fact that it has happened at least once very strongly suggests it has happened more than once.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by jariel on Sunday December 27, 2020 @11:51PM (#25556775)
"In other words, the fact that it has happened at least once very strongly suggests it has happened more than once."

No, it doesn't at all.

Maybe just the opposite.

The universe is mind-bogglingly large, but it's also really, really empty, and really, rally sparse. The numbers games starts to dwindle very quickly in terms of all the ingredients necessary.

And the Fermi paradox helps provide crudely indirect evidence.

If there was any validity at all to the 'common life theory' - then it would have started long ago and probably spread everywhere to the point wherein there would probably be ample evidence.

In the 'common life' scenario, it should be rare/impossible to find life that's disconnected from other life scenarios.

There's a decent chance we are alone.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by astrea on Sunday December 27, 2020 @11:11PM (#25556602)
I guess I disagree with the basis of the argument that it happened once, it has to have happened another time. I don't think a single instance of very unique set of circumstances is the basis of a pattern.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by techbio on Monday December 28, 2020 @01:49AM (#25557289)
I don't think the argument is that it "has to have happened another time". The argument is that if it is possible to happen once, it's likely to have happened more than once, the "existence heuristic." It proves only that it might be worth looking, unless perhaps further research indicates that we on earth are not, in fact, intelligent life, and then the likelihood of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe falls off dramatically.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by gpsx on Monday December 28, 2020 @12:36AM (#25556983)
There is an argument that one instance of life evolving does imply there should be much more. I personally don't believe this though, though it is a valid argument. There is a counter argument too.

The common argument in favor of more life is that the probability of life evolving is some very small number, such that there must be a very large number of opportunities for life to evolve in order for life to actually evolve. At the same time, there are a large number of opportunites given the size of the universe. Given that there is presumably no relation between the "small" probability for life to evolve and the "large" number of opportunities in the universe, we don't expect these two numbers to conspire to be near the same size, which is what would have to happen for just one life to evolve. Rather, we expect there should be lots of life that evolved in different places or that the probability that any life evolved at all is extremely (vanishingly) small. So if this argument is correct and we know of one life form, we should expect many more in the universe. (Not to imply we would necessarily be able to find them.)

There is one potential problem with this argument. It assumes there is just one universe. If there are many universes then it is possible that life did not evolve in almost all of them. In universes where life did evolve, odds are it happened just once. And of course, that life (us, for example) would see that univese and the life that evolved there, however improbably that would be.

I read a saying "You know an argument is wrong if it invokes quantum mechanics." But I'll do it anyway. Some educated people believe quantum mechanics works this way - the univese effectively branches into parts that are essentially distinct (referred to as different universes too). It is not as outlandish as it may seem. The whole reason quantum computers are supposed to be powerful is that different things happen in parallel.

You don't have to buy the quantum mechanics part. If there are multiple universe for whatever reason then the probability argument above is not valid.

I do want to add one thing. The number of "opportunities" for life in our universe grows linearly with each dimension in the universe. (Lets just say to the fourth power of the size of the universe.) On the other hand, the size of probability grows/shrinks exponentially. So it is not hard to imagine between the two of these numbers, the exponential one wins.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by trianglem on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:16PM (#25556380)
The visible universe is so large it is effectively infinite. And that’s just the visible universe. With 125 billion known galaxies with a 100 billion stars in each it definitely feels arrogant to imagine that we are literally the only sentient beings.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by sytelus on Monday December 28, 2020 @12:20AM (#25556917)
It might still be that there is probably barely 1 advanced life form per galaxy. We know that organic molecules and related evolution requires air, water, temperature and stability that Earth like planets can afford. Unfortunately, to be Earth like planet, you don’t just need right distance from the star but abundance of water, minerals and so on. You must maintain magnetosphere otherwise water will be gone. You must have right moon otherwise axis will wobble with eradicate seasons. Even there life had been almost wiped out many times. There are half dozen human like species which were extinct and never panned out. All these goes on to show that even with 100B stars, you just need handful of probability to chope it down to one or so instances.

The non-existence proof of ETI also means laws of physics are cruel and cannot be violated. There is almost 100% chance that advanced life forms exist in other galaxies, may be even billion year old. But no one has figured out how to travel faster than light.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by zamadatix on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:19PM (#25556392)
Old and big for something that would only have 1 planet with intelligent life. It may well be small and/or young from another PoV.

If anything I'd hazard our ignorance is more on the side of things we don't know we haven't observed than things we observed incorrectly.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by bitcurious on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:33PM (#25556448)
> i hear this argument constantly, but i've never been able to understand it. you say the universe is big and has existed for a long time, but compared to what?

I think compared to how long it took for somewhat intelligent life to evolve on Earth, from the point of first life. Assuming* a comparable evolutionary cadence, the question then becomes - how often does life begin?

*This I assume because the cadence of living things on Earth is at the very least tied to the day/night cycles, winter/summer seasons, and lunar tides, none of which are especially unique.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by irrational on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:37PM (#25556463)
I don’t know how shocking to religions it would be. Surely it would be to some. But if I remember correctly the Catholic Church had some positive statement about alien life. And I know of another christian sect for whom it is a tenant that the universe is full of planets that have been populated by God. Then of course you have scientiology that has some... interesting takes on this issue. And, I don’t think religions like Buddhism would look askance at alien life.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by nn3 on Sunday December 27, 2020 @11:15PM (#25556620)
Religions are usually quite adaptable, otherwise they don't survive very long. For example Christianity was originally a doomsday religion that expected the second coming any generation, but it eventually outgrew that too.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by scotty79 on Monday December 28, 2020 @01:05AM (#25557107)
A lot of Christians today fully expect second comming of Christ during their lifetime. In part it's still a doomsday cult.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by Causality1 on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:22PM (#25556126)
Universe no, our galaxy, probably. A species that doesn't colonize beyond their homeworld will sooner or later be wiped out by natural phenomena if not their own mistakes. A species that colonizes will fill the galaxy in a few million years unless it just decides to stop.

If anything like us existed in the milky way it's almost certainly dead now. If there's something alive it will be almost incomprehensibly different than us.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by rsynnott on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:56PM (#25556545)
> A species that colonizes will fill the galaxy in a few million years unless it just decides to stop.

I think this may be making some weird assumptions about motivation. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that travel at 5% of the speed of light is practical. Would you be signing up to go colonise a planet around Alpha Centauri? What would be the motivation opportunity such colonisation? Who would pay for it?

If interstellar travel turns out to be permanently slow, difficult, and expensive, then that may cast doubt on the idea that anyone who theoretically can spread out all over the place given a hundred million years actually will.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by drewrv on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:03AM (#25557782)
It’s interesting to me that in these conversations, some people think it’s inevitable that intelligent life will want to colonize other systems (or die trying) while others think it’s impractical.

But I think both of these opinions come from human-centric reasoning. A species that could hibernate may be able to control hibernation through technology, so a ten year journey wouldn’t be as complicated for them. Other species on earth simply don’t have the curiosity to explore the way humans do.

Speculation about alien intelligence is interesting to me, but I imagine it’s a lot weirder than we think. Especially around topics adjacent to intelligence, like curiosity, motivation, and cultural values.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by Causality1 on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:03AM (#25557786)
Whether they want to or not is irrelevant. I'm only concerned with whether or not they do. My point is that for a civilization to have an unlimited lifespan it either has to exist in multiple star systems or progress beyond the need for a star system at all. A single planet is just too vulnerable. Nuclear war, biological war, grey goo, supervolcano, gamma ray burst, ecological collapse. To exist for billions of years on one planet requires that a species be dynamic enough to create hyper-advanced science but so peaceful it doesn't kill itself with it while being so incredibly culturally stable that doesn't change for eons. I don't buy it. Living on one planet is a death sentence in probably much less than a billion years.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by jjk166 on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:05AM (#25558030)
Multiple is not the same as all. Once a civilization colonizes a handful of solar systems, it is essentially impervious to any disaster. Further expansion produces diminishing returns. There is no resource which can justify the cost of interstellar travel, and any civilization capable of making technology on that scale will have to be social enough that a latency of years to centuries in communication with the civilization's core would be a major disincentive. Even if there were a brief exploration phase when everything was new and uncharted, there would be no reason to maintain all those colonies indefinitely. A civilization inhabiting a dozen star systems all within a few lightyears of eachother would not be significantly more detectable than a single planet civilization.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by Causality1 on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:51AM (#25558219)
That's a lot of assumptions you're making. For example, some undiscovered resource could be that valuable. Perhaps the species has a slow enough physical metabolism and mental process that interstellar travel times are only mildly inconvenient.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by jjk166 on Monday December 28, 2020 @08:32AM (#25559042)
It is easier to synthesize any substance from scratch than it is to transport it between even the nearest star systems. The only way such a resource could exist is if our entire understanding of physics is way off.

Earth gives us a wide range of organisms with different lifespans and metabolic rates. There are not that many species that live longer than us, and extremely few that live significantly longer than us. Even if something lived 100 times longer than us, only a very small portion of the galaxy would be traversible within a lifetime, and there is still no reason to go more than a few lightyears.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by guerrilla on Monday December 28, 2020 @12:14AM (#25556895)
I think it was implied that the motivation would be a lack of resources here. Space and water to start with probably.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by drewrv on Monday December 28, 2020 @03:44AM (#25557706)
I suspect solving those problems within a solar system will almost always be easier than traveling to other systems. Then again maybe travel to neighboring systems is easier in a denser neighborhood.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by rsynnott on Monday December 28, 2020 @09:31AM (#25559421)
If you have the energy technology to build enough starships to put a dent in your population, you probably don’t have to worry too much about space or water unless you have runaway population growth.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by rsynnott on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:52PM (#25556522)
I don’t think it would be necessarily that big a deal from a religious point of view; the issue has been addressed by various theologians.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by mellosouls on Monday December 28, 2020 @07:17AM (#25558623)
Personally, I feel the thought that we are alone in this universe is a wee bit arrogant

An insult repeated to the point of cliche in this context which I suspect isn't normally personally meant, but nevertheless seems to deny the counter-arguer the abilities of imagination and wonder, and also presumes ("arrogantly"?) they haven't considered the known numbers first before coming to their conclusion that either there is little hope of communication or we don't know enough to decide.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by rendall on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:35PM (#25556458)
Our Universe may support life for at least a trillion years. If so, our existence a mere 14 billion years after its creation is so improbable that we may well be the first
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by drewrv on Monday December 28, 2020 @03:40AM (#25557692)
I do think this idea answers the Fermi paradox. We are here early in the universe’s life. Especially considering it was mostly just hydrogen and helium for the first few billion years.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by UShouldBWorking on Monday December 28, 2020 @12:35AM (#25556979)
Your comment is burried below dozens more optimistic views that life "should" exist and evolve intelligence, but I like your take. We are so wildly improbable that most of us can't even fathom it. That our minds exist at all is so impossibly unlikely that by all accounts we should not exist.

For most I think that we are hear seems to indicate some inevitably but I like that we are an anomaly, we shouldn't exist, the we die.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by jjk166 on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:42AM (#25557948)
Even still, artifacts don't last forever. The vast majority of the things our civilization has built would be destroyed or rendered unrecognizable within a few centuries of being abandoned. Even things specifically designed to stand the test of time are unlikely to last more than a few orders of magnitude longer than the civilization that produced them.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by kumarvvr on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:50AM (#25558215)
True, But those are old tech. How many years would it take for the Burj Khalifa or the Eieffel Tower to ruined to such an extent?
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by jjk166 on Monday December 28, 2020 @03:26PM (#25562850)
Steel structures actually are much shorter lived. Without active maintenance, odds are neither tower would last a century. Generally the more advanced a technology is, the more fragile it is, and the more reliant on other advanced technology to maintain it. If you want something that lasts a long time, you're best bet is to stick to something simple like solid granite, though even if your artifact remains mostly intact, it's useless if it gets buried under sediment or weathered to the point that it's unrecognizable as an artificial construct.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by scotty79 on Monday December 28, 2020 @01:14AM (#25557147)
For me the timeframe for life doesn't sound that relaxed.

Getting to complex cells took 2 billion years. And getting to where we are now another 2 billion years.

All that time conditions were fairly stable.

Given that life might need some elements created in supernova explosions mixed into other solar systems, and that we had just 13 billion years since the beginning, when you add some randomness, schedule starts to look tight for me.

We might be one of the first civilisations in our neighborhood.

I'm not saying that I believe that's the case but that's entirely possible.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by analog31 on Monday December 28, 2020 @12:20AM (#25556916)
Indeed, within those 5 million years, we've produced coherent electromagnetic signals for just a bit over 100 years, and will probably go dark again before another 100 years elapse. Already, most of our electromagnetic information bandwidth is confined to fiber optic cables. Like a primitive Dyson sphere. Our remaining free space communications are increasingly designed to be virtually indistinguishable from noise.

Perhaps the evolving spectroscopic signature of our atmosphere will provide a durable signpost. The earth terraformed itself well before intelligent beings ever evolved, and maybe an astute and patient observer might have been able to guess that we were on our way towards intelligent life at some point.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by crazydoggers on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:58PM (#25556549)
Author and professor Timothy Ferris explained this well in the PBS documentary Life Beyond Earth with a Christmas tree light analogy. Ultimately it comes down to how long other civilizations last for and are willing to communicate. If a civilization either kills itself off or turns inward (cyberspace life, no radio outward communication) then the chances of concurrence decrease significantly.

https://youtu.be/Y_4roppaq7s?t=1h37m45s

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by hyperpallium2 on Monday December 28, 2020 @12:30AM (#25556960)
Backtrapolating the rate of increase of complexity of life over time suggests "intelligent life has just begun appearing in our universe". https://arxiv.org/abs/1304.3381
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by sytelus on Monday December 28, 2020 @12:10AM (#25556868)
This would be true if we were the first or near first advanced species. But we cannot be because there far many more older stars and planets. If you believe that advanced life forms will revolve in 3B yrs given hospitable planet then there had probably been many many such opportunities before Earth in Milky Way. At this point then we should expect to hear other civilizations screaming all over.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by garmaine on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:42PM (#25556222)
If it was any faster, we’d not have evolved because they’d have taken over the entire galaxy.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by cortesoft on Sunday December 27, 2020 @08:38PM (#25555920)
As long as the older species survives, they would eventually coexist.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by grishka on Sunday December 27, 2020 @08:30PM (#25555883)
And their perception of time itself might be different too.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by awwaiid on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:19PM (#25556112)
Maybe creatures from planets with higher gravity think faster to deal with the accelerated thrown-object calculations.