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Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:04PM (#25556314)
> i hear this argument constantly, but i've never been able to understand it. you say the universe is big and has existed for a long time, but compared to what? if i say the universe is small and new, how would you counter that? i don't mean to come across as aggressive, but if there's any arrogance on this issue, i'd suspect it lies in thinking we have enough information to come to any meaningful position on the issue.

Basically, the universe is so ludicrously huge and so ludicrously old that it is as close to statistically impossible as one can imagine that human beings are the only things ever to evolve in such circumstances as to be sapient.

Note that the paper you have linked uses the term "detectable civilization", which is significant limitation due to our current level of technology, the age of the universe, and the propagation speed of light. It wasn't that long ago that we couldn't even detect extra-solar planets.

There is of course an argument to be made for us being "alone" in the universe in the sense that sapience is rare enough that pretty much all species, including ourselves, will die out before ever meeting another sapience, but the idea that in all the unimaginable vastness of the universe we are the only ones?

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by mewpmewp2 on Monday December 28, 2020 @01:53AM (#25557312)
Without specific numbers and calculating chance of life like ours to occur I don't see how you can confidently make such claims. It could very well be the case that even for a universe this large, it was a statistical anomaly for it to have life. Maybe out of 1000 similar universes only 1 would happen to have life. How can you tell the odds so confidently?

Maybe even out of 1,000,000,000 of similar universes only 1 would actually happen to have life. It's similar with planets. If you only know of 1 planet within 1B to have life, how can you tell the odds are not low enough to have 1 universe out of 1B to have life?

This could be an awesome example of survivorship bias to assume because there's life here, there must be life elsewhere in the universe too. We only have experience with a planet where there's life, so we are innately biased to think that it might be more frequent occurrence than it really is.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by astrea on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:17PM (#25556383)
Other than arguing that the infiniteness of the universe somehow indubitably lends credence to the emergence of some convergent sentience, could you or anyone point to something a bit more rigorous (such as the paper your parent comment linked to)?
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:45PM (#25556497)
We are aware of the evolution of one sapience in the universe. What argument do you provide that suggests this is such a mind bogglingly unique occurrence that it cannot have happened anywhere else in the universe's volume of over 400,000Gly^3 at any time during its age of 13.8 Gyr?

In other words, the fact that it has happened at least once very strongly suggests it has happened more than once.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by jariel on Sunday December 27, 2020 @11:51PM (#25556775)
"In other words, the fact that it has happened at least once very strongly suggests it has happened more than once."

No, it doesn't at all.

Maybe just the opposite.

The universe is mind-bogglingly large, but it's also really, really empty, and really, rally sparse. The numbers games starts to dwindle very quickly in terms of all the ingredients necessary.

And the Fermi paradox helps provide crudely indirect evidence.

If there was any validity at all to the 'common life theory' - then it would have started long ago and probably spread everywhere to the point wherein there would probably be ample evidence.

In the 'common life' scenario, it should be rare/impossible to find life that's disconnected from other life scenarios.

There's a decent chance we are alone.

Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by astrea on Sunday December 27, 2020 @11:11PM (#25556602)
I guess I disagree with the basis of the argument that it happened once, it has to have happened another time. I don't think a single instance of very unique set of circumstances is the basis of a pattern.
Re:A Statistical Estimate of Extraterrestrial Intelligence i... by techbio on Monday December 28, 2020 @01:49AM (#25557289)
I don't think the argument is that it "has to have happened another time". The argument is that if it is possible to happen once, it's likely to have happened more than once, the "existence heuristic." It proves only that it might be worth looking, unless perhaps further research indicates that we on earth are not, in fact, intelligent life, and then the likelihood of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe falls off dramatically.