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Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by jibcage on Saturday December 26, 2020 @11:29AM (#25544377)
Even if we manage to tackle the climate crisis, I wonder how we will address the accompanying ecological collapse that seems to be rapidly accelerating.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by hh3k0 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:21PM (#25544792)
I've recently seen a real hard-hitter of a picture online:

https://i0.wp.com/mackaycartoons.net/wp-content/uploads/2020...

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by pizza on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:49PM (#25545012)
Everyone’s a gangsta until the clathrate gun starts poppin off..
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by diveanon on Saturday December 26, 2020 @11:40AM (#25544471)
We won't.

It makes me sad to think that 50-100 years from now most of the species we know and many more we don't will be extinct.

The only things left alive will be what we need to survive and whatever manages to carve a niche out of the blasted landscapes we leave in our wake.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by loopz on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:48PM (#25544999)
David Attenborough thinks we can. We simply can't afford not to in the newest Netflix documentary:

David Attenborough: A Life on Our Planet (2020)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11989890/

But it doesn't mean it won't happen without a wake-up call. The answer is simple, just stop destroying what has caused unprecedented equilibrium in temperatures during the latest rise of civilization in the past 10k years.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by diveanon on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:46PM (#25545428)
David Attenborough believes its his responsibility to give a message of hope in the effort of making a change.

I admire his drive, but I also believe it is futile.

Humankind has done nothing but expand and devour over its short history on this planet, nothing that we have done makes me think this trend will stop.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by electricEmu on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:56PM (#25545505)
For years I've watched the rivers in Washington State receive consideration. Progress has been made and continues to be.

Saying humankind has done "nothing" is not only mistaken, but makes for poor conversation. Perhaps more people should take a page from Attenborough.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/dec/17/for-the-first-...

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by diveanon on Saturday December 26, 2020 @02:11PM (#25545604)
I think it speaks volumes that the very people responsible for this positive change were themselves victims of near extinction due to consumption and greed.

The only real hope the worlds ecosystems have is drastic and sudden reduction in human population, which won't be pleasant for anyone.

This was proved by the resurgence of nature in the areas surrounding Chernobyl. I've been a part of a coral conservation project in SEAsia for the last 15 years, and we have seen more recovery over the last year due to tourists being gone than ever before.

Unfortunately the boat captains who were ferrying snorkelers before have gone back to fishing the reefs, so that change was short lived. We are also beginning to see signs of a major bleaching event.

The long term impacts of COVID are going to see a relaxation of ecological protections worldwide, which I imagine will have a similar effect.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by ashtonkem on Saturday December 26, 2020 @02:08PM (#25545583)
Remember when acid rain was a serious threat, or the hole in the ozone layer? While we still have some work to go, we’ve actually done a lot of good work to stop these problems and begin reversing the damage that we caused. We can and do clean up after ourselves.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by the-dude on Saturday December 26, 2020 @11:45AM (#25544516)
Isn't this a bit exaggerated?
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by sp332 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:02PM (#25544647)
Here's an estimate that shows one third of all species going extinct by 2070 https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/21/weather/species-extinction-cl... And "In a worst-case scenario, that number could rise to over 55%."
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by ckastner on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:42PM (#25544951)
This protected death of millions of species, 50 years out from now, is based on an analysis of 538 of them.

That sounds woefully inadequate information for something as complex as what this model is trying predict.

That's like predicting the weather from only a handful of temperature sensors, or doing patient studies with N=4.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by diveanon on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:48PM (#25545441)
Key indicators and foundational species like coral are effective metrics.

A mass die offs of coral, which is currently happening, will decimate ocean ecosystems and have a cascading effect on the rest of the world.

People have been saying this for decades, its not new news. Its just inconvenient and impacts shareholders.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by hanniabu on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:47PM (#25544995)
If you select the proper species then you can make fairly accurate deductions due to cascading effects of the food chain.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by giardini on Saturday December 26, 2020 @10:41PM (#25548621)
Luckily no one is able to predict most anything beyond 4 years in the future. Ask any economist or epidemiologist.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by diveanon on Sunday December 27, 2020 @03:12PM (#25553873)
This is false.

We have been accurately modeling climate change for over 50 years now.

Also, epidemiologist have been predicting a coronavirus outbreak specifically for about 10 years, and a larger global pandemic for about 100.

You can choose to ignore science if you want, but that doesn't mean people havent been warning us.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by the-dude on Sunday December 27, 2020 @04:40PM (#25554499)
So they have been wrong for about 100 years. Great record.

I predict the sun will run out of steam and we are all gonna die. Furthermore, some volcanos will erupt too.

And we have not been 'accurately predicting the climate for 50 years' : about 50 years ago, there were worries about a new ice age.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by ironmagma on Saturday December 26, 2020 @11:59AM (#25544630)
In what sense? Seems realistic to me. The past ten years alone have been terrible for extinction; we lost about 500 species. And there is a feedback loop with these sorts of things.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by the-dude on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:36PM (#25544899)
Do you have a source for that fishy number?
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by ironmagma on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:56PM (#25545064)
“In the past decade, 467 species have been declared extinct (though they might have gone extinct in decades prior), according to the global authority on species conservation status, the International Union for Conservation of Nature, or IUCN.”

https://biobrief.org/species-the-world-lost-2010-2019/

[dead]
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by ironmagma on Saturday December 26, 2020 @02:05PM (#25545562)
What doublespeak? Do you have a preferred authority?
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by Omnitaus on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:44PM (#25544969)
"Since 1900, 543 species of vertebrates have gone extinct. And those are just the ones we know of. In the past century, we have witnessed the disappearance of the ivory-billed woodpecker (Campephilus principalis), the Round Island burrowing boa (Bolyeria multocarinata), the laughing owl (Ninox albifacies), the sea mink (Neovison macrodon), and the golden toad (Incilius periglenes), to name a few."

https://news.mongabay.com/2020/06/less-than-a-thousand-remai...

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by the-dude on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:46PM (#25544990)
@Omnitaus, you seem to be dead? Check the thread in incognito.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by giardini on Saturday December 26, 2020 @10:42PM (#25548626)
And how many new species arose?
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by diveanon on Sunday December 27, 2020 @05:40AM (#25550174)
Is that an attempt at a counter argument?

Burden of proof is on you if you want to make a claim like that.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by mimikatz on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:02PM (#25544650)
You're not accounting for adaptation, which nature is very good at.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by cloudwalking on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:05PM (#25544670)
Not at the timescale humans are forcing.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by sp332 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:05PM (#25544672)
Things will probably fill in niches later, but there will still be a lot fewer species by the end of the century, which is what the original comment said.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by diveanon on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:50PM (#25545458)
Evolution takes time.

We are much better at consumption than nature is at adaptation.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by alltakendamned on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:31PM (#25544859)
I think we can debate magnitude, but not direction.

I feel recently it's been a long time since I came across examples of where nature is increased or restored. Every time it's about nature disappearing.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by sojournerc on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:22PM (#25545269)
Beware of availability bias here.

Bad news is reported far more often than good.

There are signs of the planet greening as a result of higher CO2, for instance.

That doesn't diminish the potential damage, but it's not all bad.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by diveanon on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:44PM (#25545413)
The largest mass extinction in history was due to rising 02 levels.

Its the rate of change, not the change itself that causes mass extinctions.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by diveanon on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:55PM (#25545492)
The only example I can think of is the area around Chernobyl seeing a return of many species.

Which just goes to show that deadly radiation is better for the environment than the presence of humans.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by diveanon on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:43PM (#25545409)
Not really, we have lost 50% of the life in our oceans over the last 30 years.

Current trends show major ecological collapse within our lifetimes.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by eggsmediumrare on Saturday December 26, 2020 @11:57AM (#25544614)
Better to act like it isn't.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by pessimizer on Saturday December 26, 2020 @11:58AM (#25544619)
Care to offer your own diagnosis, or just here to frown at people?
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by diveanon on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:42PM (#25545403)
I'm old, I tried over my lifetime and failed.

Give it a shot if you care. Education isn't the problem, it's the will to sacrifice our comfort for a better world.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by carapace on Saturday December 26, 2020 @03:15PM (#25546138)
The good news is that we have the solutions already, we can regenerate ecosystems if we put our mind to it.

For example, regenerate forests using Miyawaki's method: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira_Miyawaki#Method_and_cond...

> The Miyawaki method of reconstitution of "indigenous forests by indigenous trees" produces a rich, dense and efficient protective pioneer forest in 20 to 30 years ... this method, if properly applied, quickly produces a multi-layered forest and according to him, a soil with a microbial and acari composition quickly approaching that of a normal primary forest.

And regenerative ecologically-harmonious agriculture, e.g.: "Treating the Farm as an Ecosystem with Gabe Brown Part 1, The 5 Tenets of Soil Health" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A

Reversing desertification: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_greening

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by specialist on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:26AM (#25551630)
Thanks for links.

Our future Garden Earth will need a lot of labor, investment.

I recently observed a couple dozen volunteers working on restoring some local woods (in a park). Removing rubbish, culling invasive species, restoring top soil, planting saplings, etc.

It was real work. I couldn't believe how small the targeted area was. Less than an acre.

Doing restoration, biomediation at scale would give a lot of people a lot of jobs. At this point in my life, I'd definitely do it for minimum wage and health insurance. My neighbor "retired" a few years ago, now does landscaping. He claims he's never been happier, more fit. He certainly looks it.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by carapace on Sunday December 27, 2020 @04:36PM (#25554471)
Cheers!

There was an article that went by here on HN not long ago that claimed that this is the year that humans and their livestock outweigh all other (wild) biomass. In other words, I think Garden Earth is today, eh?

And yeah, I agree with you that it's going to take a lot of work. Done well, regenerative agriculture is profitable, so that's great.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by spodek on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:16PM (#25545227)
Systemic change begins with personal transformation.

On a personal level, online calculators tell me I've reduced my footprint about 90 percent. More than the material change, I didn't expect it would improve my life so much -- saving money, time, increasing connection to family and control over my career, plus being invited to communities like food deserts who can benefit most from such transitions. I would bet most Americans could reduce about 70 or 80 percent with simple improvements they wish they did earlier. Most Silicon Valley types maybe 90 percent before any difficult decisions.

My podcast and nonprofit's missions are to help people realize they'll like the change. Everyone presents sustainability as a burden, chore, or sacrifice. In practice, it's the opposite, but no one tries so haven't experienced it. They think not flying means not working or seeing their family.

We're creating systemic change by leading well-known people to change, publicly so listeners have role models. Community influences people more than facts and figures, so we're focusing on people in everyone's communities.

Many opportunities for rewarding change.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by specialist on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:34AM (#25551678)
Good stuff, thanks. Subscribed to your podcast.

My two cents...

Due to this pandemic, I'm finally eating the way I've always intended to. Beans, legumes, brown rices, chilis, stews, novel flours, baking.

I've dropped 30lbs, now close to my ideal weight. I'm also eating non-stop, so it's not due calorie restriction.

To maximize social distancing, and maybe reduce risk of food shortages, I've been buying bulk as much as possible.

Another unexpected benefit is my food waste is now super low.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by i_love_music on Saturday December 26, 2020 @02:02PM (#25545537)
This sounds interesting. I'm interested in your podcast. Link?
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by spodek on Saturday December 26, 2020 @02:23PM (#25545704)
Glad to hear.

This Sustainable Life: https://joshuaspodek.com/podcast

Here's a list of popular guests based on downloads: https://joshuaspodek.com/leadership-and-the-environment-top-... though I recommend the solo episodes of my reflections without guests, starting here: https://joshuaspodek.com/guests/solo-episodes-volume-15.

My three TEDx talks: https://joshuaspodek.com/tedx

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by xyst on Saturday December 26, 2020 @04:14PM (#25546502)
Blue Origin, Virgin Galactic, SpaceX is the billionaire solution to fixing the world's impending doom. While the peasants are fighting over the limited supply of clean water, oil, and food, the billionaires of the world are off trying to colonize another planet. Unfortunately, they are likely to repeat the same patterns as Earth and bring that planet to a complete collapse.

Some times I think that humanity is just a disease itself. Despite overwhelming evidence of our detrimental effects to this planet, we continue to plunge all of it's precious resources and while sitting on a pile of ashes. We ponder at the question of "why?"

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by anonuser123456 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:15PM (#25544750)
Personally, I envision a world like blade runner 2049. Humans thrive with technology and the earth ceases to be our parent, providing for us.

I don't personally worry about the collapse of the ecosystem as some major long term issue. Major extinction events have occurred in the past, and it portends a massive explosion of diversity as life adapts to the new ecosystem. In a few million years our AI ancestors will tend an amazing garden of native, artificial and synthetic hybrid life.

And if we don't make it... multicellular life will continue to flourish and evolve.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by titzer on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:48PM (#25545437)
> Major extinction events have occurred in the past, and it portends a massive explosion of diversity

I'm not sure if you grasp the concept of extinction: the permanent removal of species from the ecosystem. Mass extinctions don't "portend a massive explosion of diversity" they literally signal the end of diversity. Ecosystems take millions of years to recover as there are few or no species left that fill prior ecological niches to provide ecosystem services. Biodiversity is not the result of extinction, it's what happens between extinction events as millions upon millions of mutations build up viable species.

It's like cutting down all the trees in the forest and declaring "but in the long run, this will be good for the forest! Think of all the trees that will eventually grow here!"

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by walleeee on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:29PM (#25544849)
> Humans thrive with technology and the earth ceases to be our parent, providing for us.

What leads you to believe this? I often see similar sentiments on this website. I don't understand it. Maybe I'm missing something.

High technology is fragile. As far as I can tell, it's nowhere close to self-sufficient. It's the pinnacle of a massive edifice whose foundation is biology: in particular non-human life. Kick that out and the whole thing collapses.

> And if we don't make it... multicellular life will continue to flourish and evolve.

This does seem reasonably likely. Life is resilient. Human life and human engineering, not so much.

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by jeffbee on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:42PM (#25544944)
Imagine watching Blade Runner and thinking "humans thrive".
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by hh3k0 on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:33PM (#25544874)
Wow. Just wow. That has to be the dumbest comment about climate change and biodiversity collapse I've read so far. If you are not concerned about anything which is not still impacting earth after time-scales that are approaching aeons have passed then you will surely have no qualms about wiring me all your money -- and hell, take some loans before you do that -- because what is it in the grand scheme of things, am I right?
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by Mc_Big_G on Saturday December 26, 2020 @01:54PM (#25545484)
The height of nihilism. "I don't care what happens to humanity..."
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by whalesalad on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:10PM (#25544707)
climate crisis == ecological collapse they are one in the same
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by seltzered_ on Saturday December 26, 2020 @03:36PM (#25546267)
I think the answer I keep getting at is we change our lives substantially and engage local community to collaborate - gradually, through mutual learning. A number of us talk about this and what we're trying to do at individual/community scales at https://earth-regenerators.mn.co .
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by coderaptor on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:34PM (#25544883)
Can someone more familiar with the field post some applicable models for review?
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by cloudwalking on Saturday December 26, 2020 @12:09PM (#25544700)
It’s not just climate change which is destroying these ecosystems. A huge factor is pesticide killing huge numbers of bugs, which these birds eat.
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by giardini on Saturday December 26, 2020 @10:46PM (#25548647)
Please post relevant links and arguments showing that pesticide is killing huge numbers of bugs unnecessarily (we do use pesticides for farming, after all).
Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by cloudwalking on Thursday January 07, 2021 @01:42PM (#25675286)
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/10/plummeti...

"More than 40% of insect species are declining and a third are endangered"

"The analysis, published in the journal Biological Conservation, says intensive agriculture is the main driver of the declines, particularly the heavy use of pesticides."

Re:Mass die-off of birds in south-western US 'caused by star... by giardini on Saturday December 26, 2020 @10:38PM (#25548609)
The OP said nothing about an "accompanying ecological collapse".