Some people value that they can get stuff done for themselves. I've grown up helping with various renovations around our home (floor tiling, wallpapers, building kitchen furniture etc), and they are fond memories and it makes a difference to how you feel living in a place. I know today mobility and renting is everything, but there is quite a distinct feel of living in actually your own place that you've worked on over the years with family or friends helping out. Now, we were poorer than most people around here for sure. Still, it's not the same when you just pay others to do it.

What's life about? What do you buy that time for? To have more time to "consume content"? Or to go on a vacation and sit at the beach being served cocktails? For many people, these quests for finding good deals, fixing stuff, etc. is like a "side project" or a side quest that contributes to their self-image and life satisfaction long-term.

If you eliminate all hassle, you could just as much pay people to live instead of you.

Now if you really loath some ways of spending time, sure try to make others do those. But not every "hassle" is wasted time. You can even learn new interesting things, interact with different types of people, while getting advice for laying your floor tiles or whatever.

I don't think this super productivity focused view is healthy long term, that all time must be spent either on brushing up on new job-related skills to chase more money, or on actual work time to fight for higher job positions, to make your hourly time even more expensive, so you do even less worldly stuff...

I wonder if there will come a new celebrity-backed fad (following mindfulness, minimalism, normcore etc.) where people do these mundane tasks themselves and give it some cute snappy buzzwordy name and there will be scientific studies that it increases one's well being.

"If you eliminate all hassle, you could just as much pay people to live instead of you."

I take your point, but don't worry, I'm living with the saved time. The CSS example was probably not as good as it could have been. Instead I'd probably be visiting my kids or something like that. I don't think "super productivity" is healthy long term as well.

"I wonder if there will come a new celebrity-backed fad (following mindfulness, minimalism, normcore etc.) where people do these mundane tasks themselves and give it some cute snappy buzzwordy name and there will be scientific studies that it increases one's well being."

Would that be the DIY thing?

I think that's just DIY. Does doing the dishes increase happiness? Unlikely. But fixing something or cooking a new dish is going to venture into learning and thinking and hopefully some level of increased awareness of how other parts of the world work.

With that said, there can be real value to walking mindlessly behind a lawn mower for a few hours.

I find doing the dishes somewhat meditative. If I've spent the morning grappling with a difficult work problem then I need something mindless to do for 20 minutes.

There are ripple effects from discovering that you're capable of doing things that professionals get paid to do.

Good ripple effects.

My wife has not only embraced me doing more things around the house (and to me, this is getting to do more things) as she's seen what I can do, but she's also embraced her own capabilities more as she's discovered what she can do.

There's also cases where professionals have different skill levels, or just a bad day, and make mistakes working on your issue. But when you did the initial build or repair yourself, you often learn enough to come in and troubleshoot an issue that arises, without having to schedule a troubleshooting session (or five, as is the case of my brand new roof that still has a new leak after quite a few visits and failure to identify the cause.)

The more capable you find yourself, the more you can readily learn to shape your immediate environment to be the world you want to live in. And arguably, there's more satisfaction in that than paying others to shape the world for you.

Also, paying someone to care about it as much as you do may be out of your wallet (well, perhaps not the case for SV devs reading).

The attention to detail and actual time that you are willing to put into your own home is just different from someone for whom it's just another job.

> If you eliminate all hassle, you could just as much pay people to live instead of you.

There are still a lot of things to do even if you have eliminated all the hassles. Singing, writing, learning a new language, surfing, volunteering as a firefighter, just to name a few.

I get it. Some people likes fixing stuff, building stuff with their hands, and it's perfectly interesting to them. At the same time, it's not that interesting to other people. Just like not everyone cooks, and that doesn't mean they are not enjoying their meal.

Last week, I spent a few hours learning about plumbing, in an attempt to fix my disposal. My quest failed, and I had to call a plumber, who fixed it in under a minute.

Next time, I'll call her directly.

> volunteering as a firefighter

This seems like exactly the case where I would apply the "There's a professional for that" maxim.

This made me laugh my drink through my nose -- and I've had my life saved by volunteer fire fighters in the PNW backcountry. A gifted, timely amateur beats an absent professional any day.

There are not enough professional firefighters in some places.

There are too many in others. They mostly do housecalls, serving as ambulances, since house fires are rare today.

Too many in cities but in rural areas, there are never enough. And they are never close enough. Lots of those places, the volunteers train once a month and carry a pager. They are all spread out over the county. When the page goes off, they leave work or home and go to the scene to be useful.

And the selection and training for volunteers is as rigorous as for the professionals, for the obvious reason that they can't permit life and property to be endangered just because someone's a volunteer.

I had a workshop fire once. Grabbing the fire extinguisher and quickly putting it out was defintely a better idea than outsourcing that task.

"If you eliminate all hassle, you could just as much pay people to live instead of you."

In general (90% of the time) I've found paying someone to do something merely alters the hassle. Now I have to deal through someone to get the desired result. And I'm paying for the privilege (increments hassle). There are very few times I've been able to pay money, state the desired result, and remain hands off.

Yep, it's easy to get screwed over. When we had major renovations, one knowledgeable family member always had to be around to make sure things are going well. The main repairs guy is obviously hostile to this, they are the pros after all, but if you take a hands off approach you can get screwed. And other handymen don't like taking up and finishing/fixing botched jobs. You can also try to run after your money. Sure you can delegate that too, pay a lawyer etc.

If you're really rich you can just have someone who does all this for you and you just sit in your chair and enjoy life and point to things in catalogues and everything else just appears around you.

There is merit to the parent comment advising that some DIY excursions are best left alone, but I appreciate the adventure that comes with grinding my wheels from time to time. Hassle builds character! My buddy is taking years to renovate his house, but it's a great story, like something you see in Architectural Digest.

The thing is that there's a difference between putting up a new wall (been there, enjoyed that) and hiring someone else to fix the toilet flange leak if you ask me :)

That's a tongue in cheek way of saying that I don't mind paying for the stuff that I would not enjoy trying to do myself. It's not limited to smelly stuff. I definitely didn't want to do the re-piping of the house (had Kitex) myself. But I definitely enjoyed the wall building and dry walling. I loved putting in the door and what I learned during that but I wouldn't want to do the window replacement even though it's kinda the same except for the insulation and water proofing part (which is where I want the professionals to do it). But then I will be looking into the shed water leak myself (wet garden tools and possibly some $$ spent on a new 2x4 or OSB roof board, sure). Leaky house with mold issues? Thabjs but no thanks. I got a day job :)

Sounds like you've struck a great balance between being unafraid to tackle some cool, challenging projects and sniffing out the tasks that aren't worth your trouble. Knowing the boundaries of your expertise is key, no matter the domain.

Luckily I got this advice early on, and I agree it’s aged well as I get older. It was given to me as “Time is your most precious resource. You can always make more money. You’ll never get back a second of your time.” Words I live by.

I tried to tile a room in my basement once. Took forever and I only got half done. Hired a professional to finish the job, and it took him less than a day. Then he told me the things I had done wrong.

I completely agree. I've found these are generally challenging tasks that pull you into a flow state, and when doing them with family, contribute to a great sense of accomplishment.

I wanted to say great replies - thoughtful and reasoned and polite. I read them all. Thanks HN folks.

I think GP agrees with you because they said:

> In the saved time I've polished up my CSS skills...

Some people have spent thousands of hours perfecting their craft. To think you can produce the same output with a few hours of YouTube tutorials is laughable.

I’m happy to pay these experts because I know I will get my moneys worth. It’ll also free up my time to explore things I have a higher interest and affinity for

If very high-skilled work is needed and/or specialized tools (replacing a front-door, plumbing a gas-line), I agree, it's hard to match a skilled professional.

In my experience, the vast majority of household diy/repair does not require that level of skill. It can also be hard to find a really skilled person that cares about your home as much as you.

For me, I tend towards fixing/making everything myself unless it requires high-skill or specialized tools.

> It can also be hard to find a really skilled person that cares about your home as much as you.

This is something I've found to be true.

We bought a house that we later found had some significant water damage issues. I hired a professional the first time we noticed it and he did little more than paper over the problem.

I ended up spending the next two years basically tearing the wall apart and redoing all the sheathing and insulation and house wrap.

Sure I could have hired someone and they would have eventually done all that for me, but I'm pretty confident it would have been in the tens of thousands of dollars by that point.

Caring about the end result will get you a long way.

But part of it is probably also that I come from a working class family and was immersed in the basics of that sort of work for my entire growing up time.

How do you know you're hiring an expert? It's easy to find people claiming to be experts who are willing to take your money. It's virtually impossible to evaluate whether they're any good or not when you're not an expert either.

If I do it myself, I might take three times as long, but at least I know what I'm going to get.

Somehow, it feels better if it's screwed up because I screwed it up rather than paying someone else to screw it up.

Word of mouth is a good way. Experts tend to have a portfolio of work so you can use that as your reference point.

Question is what do you spend your newfound time on. People usually like solving problems and proving to themselves and others they are capable. If I go and fix that broken chair myself, rather than toss it and buy a brand new one, you can say I’ve “lost” that time doing something unproductive, but I might consider it time well spent doing something I enjoy.

Also I think diversifying my competencies is also a good investment, as you get to exercise different parts of your brain and body.

And don’t get me started on the social aspect. Sure I’ll feel happy working on that toy recursive descent parser I’ve been thinking about. But I can do that at work too. But helping a friend do a paint job for that old room would help my well being even more.

I’ve largely stopped envying other people’s wealth at this point. I can see them having all the same problems as the rest of us - communication with partners or kids, “issues at work”, car problems, neighbor problems, substance abuse, just the details change, we’re all humans in the end. And thus trying to find joy in whatever I’ve set out to do this hour has helped me a lot with my general wellbeing.

> Time really is the most precious resource you have. Think hard before you trade it for anything else.

Including money!

I personally would much rather spend a sunny afternoon with my nephew transporting 2 tons of gravel and playing outside than sitting inside an office to earn the money to pay someone else to do it.

That's a particular case where you'd get other benefits (spending time with someone you like when the weather is nice), you know that's not always the case. And for the cost of half a day's transit work a software engineer probably only needs to work for an hour (and a professional's half day will probably take a layperson a whole day).

If you enjoy the activity it's a whole different story.

Since starting on my own homeownership journey, I've often found it a gigantic hassle to find professionals who I can trust to do a decent job AND have time in their schedule to do the job... Hiring someone for any kind of plumbing requires both time AND money, so I find it just as well to try using time first, and then adding money if the job is too big/complex to solve with a few youtube videos and a wrench.

I recently spent $2500 having a "recommended" handyman paint the trim of a rental house I own because I was taking too long to get the house done by myself and I figured it'd save money in the long run to accelerate the timetable, but his work wasn't up to my standards and I still had to spend another week touching up his mistakes. Probably would've been three days if I just did the job myself, and I wouldn't have had to spend any time picking paint out of the carpet either...

To be fair, though, the other subs I hired worked out okay.

I've applied this a lot in my life.

For example, holidays: Every day that I'm overseas, I lose about $1,000 because I'm a contractor and I'm not getting paid, plus the base expenses of the flights and hotel rooms. If I'm not getting a thousand dollars worth of value from a day, that money is wasted. Spending $50 at a normal restaurant is not "saving money", it's actually a waste of a day! Once you've sunk days into flying somewhere, and dedicated weeks of not working, you may as well spend $200-$300 on a really fancy dinner.

For a contrast, a friend of mine came with us on a trip and tried to save money by buying the exact same $5 takeaway budget pizza that you can get here. He got food poisoning from it and spent several days of his trip in his room feeling miserable. He spent the same time on the trip and spent the same money on flights and accommodation.

I agree with the end point you made but I think it's really unhealthy to think about any time not spent working as losing money.

I don't think parent means "every hour I'm not working I'm losing money", I think they mean "every day I spend on this vacation is a day I would normally be getting paid" so they need to make the opportunity cost assessment.

I'm not sure how $200-300 is "saving money" unless you're not enjoying your trip at all with a $50 restaurant.

Maybe your friend that spent $5 on pizza was on the trip for something other than food?

Also depending on destination, $200 / night on dinner is usually higher than my total daily incl amortized flights, and I don't really cut corners on anything (ie flights, hotel, activities, meals). Your friend with the $5 pizza could proportionally save a lot of money compared to me.

Of course, food poisoning is a pretty extreme example, doesn't make sense to order from anywhere if it seems undafe.

How do you factor in trips where being thrify - taking, for instance, public transport or staying in strange places or finding cheap back-street bars, are actually the way to have a far more genuine experience than throwing money at stuff? I've always found the trips I've taken when I've been broken to be the ones where I discover the most and immerse myself the most. When I've you're able to throw money at stuff you get lazy and don't get as much from it.

Understand what you are trying to say but maybe food isn't the best example. If i travel somewhere it's to enjoy a warm beach, the ski slope or something else unique i can't find at home. Not to eat. If i thrift on the food it means i can afford another day in slopes. (Assuming of course fancy restaurants is something that can be found at home and not a main unique attraction of the destination).

Often the cheap street food can also be the more unique local attraction when traveling somewhere!

On the other hand, if you enjoy fixing old trucks and hauling gravel then you haven't really lost anything. You've got to spend your time doing something after all.

I just replaced my failed furnace with a used one from craigslist, cost me about $250 and 2-4 hours ¯\_(0.0)_/¯

It's easy to recognize this but there really is something you miss by not having things you maintain yourself. It certainly doesn't have to be everything but if you outsource too much it's a lot easier to get depressed.

Relevant Malcolm in the Middle "Hal Replaces a Lightbulb" video. Sometimes I feel like this is my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSehcT19u0

I see this reacting depending on the interests, hobbies or identity of the person. The same people who decide to get a professional to paint their homes or install a heater can / will also rant about how you can save money by assembling your own server, driving an hour each way to a colo and installing it there, instead of using AWS. We all decide to do things ourselves if we're hobbyists, amateurs or have an vested identity (we think of ourselves as being handy with power tools or being the "man about the house") in the thing that needs to be done.

I disagree. I spent 20 hours installing a remote start on my wife’s minivan for $150 when it would have cost $400 to have professionals do it in 3 hours. My time was well spent.

Different strokes, of course. Find the balance : ) I think it’s healthy to realize that even things/chores you want to do and would enjoy doing you may be able to pay to have done both sooner and more professionally, allowing you to partake in activities you enjoy even more. I just moved and had new locks keyed and deadbolts installed for $200. I could have done it, and have before, but I got to work instead and take off early to go hike with the dogs. I think a lot of capable people feel guilty paying for stuff like that because they like to accomplish everything themselves, which can be exhausting in and of itself. That’s the pitfall to avoid, I think.

Yes, also try. We hired a nanny in the mornings to help care for the kids.

Yeah, it's not like I'm paying people to assemble my Lego sets or play my board games for me. But your example of 20 hours for $400 would definitely be one where I'd take that $20 an hour in a heartbeat and go do something else.

Right, definitely valid. But I could have spent that 20 hrs playing a video game, which has the same sort of feedbacks, but doesn't teach me a useful skill. If I reinterpret the installation as a meditative time of carefully learning and exploring, like playing an open world game like minecraft, it feels rewarding instead of tedious. Ideally I would do something similar for all my tasks so my life is very understandable and maintainable. Despite the normal call to just have a professional do it, many things are not so tricky to do one's self, and if I trick myself into thinking the time is worthwhile spent instead of wasted since I didn't do a preferred activity, I gain a sense of virtue and deeper satisfaction. Sure, I will miss out on financial and experiential opportunities. But, it seems with virtue and a sense of standing on my own feet, these missed opportunities don't bother me, which in turn gives me less anxiety over missing out on life overall, which is what I think I really want.

Yeah, and the point you make about satisfaction is important. If you're doing it for the satisfaction of learning and attaining some competence at it, that's time well spent I think.

I do almost everything myself--a byproduct of being raised poor--and I never know what I'm doing. I watch some youtube videos, buy a fancy new tool, and away I go. I've had a couple epic failures but overall I've found that the more things you learn to do yourself the faster and easier it gets to pick up any new thing.

I'll add that learning some basic skills can save hassle as well. A few weeks ago a hinge broke on my bathroom door. The door dropped and was wedged on the floor so it couldn't be opened or closed.

My wife's answer if I wasn't here, would have been to call someone and wait a week for them to come, while just dealing with a broken bathroom door. Maybe if you are on your own thats no big deal, but what if it was a exterior door or window?

I spend an hour to swap the hinges around (there are three on the door, so swapped the middle for the bottom one which was broken), and voila, good as new until I get a replacement.

I still need to get around to ordering a replacement, but that's another story....

Exactly, having a professional do it not only is more expensive, but can be more time consuming and annoying.

Have you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance? Your attitude reminds me of the protagonist's friend.

When you do things for yourself, not only do you gain the experience when you have the agency and skills to add a layer of self-reliance, and not only do you have the beautiful experience of learning and appreciating the ins and outs of the things that contribute to your existence, but often when you achieve some degree of master of something you'll be building or maintaining things to a higher standard because you have a vested interest in keeping the tools around you that way as opposed to relying on a division of labour.