News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by OminousWeapons on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @12:52PM (#25445749)
The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the federal government. If you are going to shutter businesses and put people out of work, you need to pay the business owners and the employees who you have affected. Staying economically viable vs staying medically viable should have never been a tradeoff people had to make here, and Americans should all remember that when the next election rolls around.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by nradov on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:12PM (#25446000)
The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the state and local governments. The federal government didn't force any businesses to close. There is a huge variance between states in pandemic control measures. If businesses are still open in Florida then why should Floridians pay federal income taxes to subsidize closed businesses in California?

And states do have options for funding relief at the state level. For example they could temporarily raise income taxes on the wealthy for the duration of the pandemic. Or issue pandemic bonds.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by slg on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:19PM (#25446115)
>The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the state and local governments. The federal government didn't force any businesses to close.

The state and local government had to act entirely because the federal government had no real plan. Someone is going to fill the decision making vacuum, but it is a problem when the people making the decisions don't have the financial power to make the right decision. The federal government is the only government in the US that had the power to pay people to stay home and experts were telling us that was the right decision 9 months ago.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by nradov on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:35PM (#25446387)
You appear to be laboring under a misconception. The responsibility to act on public health measures has always been primarily at the state and local levels. Under our federal system, the federal government doesn't even really have legal authority to order lockdown measures. Granted the federal response has been an appalling mix of corruption and incompetence, but the federal role is mostly just advisory anyway.

State governments have the power to pay people to stay home. They might have to shift funding from other areas or raise taxes in order to do so.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by ardy42 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @05:33PM (#25449702)
> State governments have the power to pay people to stay home. They might have to shift funding from other areas or raise taxes in order to do so.

But they don't have the money to do so. Plans like that require deficit spending, which the federal government can do but the states can't.

Your alternative suggestions are not serious ideas. Do you really think the states could find the money to pay people to stay home by levying taxes on basically those same payments?

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by nradov on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:12PM (#25450069)
I am seriously suggesting that if states want to pay people to stay home they should find the money by cutting other spending, selling assets, raising taxes on the wealthy (households with an income over about $200K who didn't receive a stimulus payment in the first place), and issuing general obligation bonds. Some states have legal restrictions on those things but those are entirely self imposed and can be removed without any federal intervention. It's time to make tough decisions and decide what to prioritize rather than pretending we can have it all and letting future generations deal with the consequences.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by ardy42 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:28AM (#25456404)
> I am seriously suggesting that if states want to pay people to stay home they should find the money by cutting other spending, selling assets, raising taxes on the wealthy (households with an income over about $200K who didn't receive a stimulus payment in the first place), and issuing general obligation bonds.

So, basically, you think they should do things like finance their house with their credit card (general obligation bonds) instead of taking out a mortgage (federal deficit spending)? And what's your reason for that?

Honestly, this seems more like you're opposed to stay at home orders directly, but expressing that opposition indirectly by demanding arbitrary (unreasonable) policy restrictions to make them seems less desirable by making their implementation unnecessarily painful and difficult.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by maxerickson on Thursday December 17, 2020 @09:02AM (#25455621)
There's not dire future consequences to deficit spending during a demand shock. Austerity is the wrong response to such situations.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by ant6n on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:48PM (#25446633)
The argument isn’t about power in the sense of authority, but power in the sense of having the tools to control the situation.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by slg on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:52PM (#25446688)
Where in my comment did I say the federal government should have enacted a national lockdown? My complaint was the lack of a real plan. They left the states to fend for themselves without the level of guidance, coordination, or financial support that was needed for a proper response.

>State governments have the power to pay people to stay home. They might have to shift funding from other areas or raise taxes in order to do so.

Most states are run on a deficit and several states are already near bankruptcy. There simply isn't a capability at the state level to have the type of financial response that is possible at the federal level with its ability to print money.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by throwaway201103 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:27PM (#25448135)
> Most states are run on a deficit

This is not true. All the states except Vermont have a legal requirement of a balanced budget.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/fiscal-policy/state-balanced-b...

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by slg on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @05:25PM (#25449623)
I phrased that poorly. However there is also a difference between what these rules require and what you are stating. A proposed balanced budget isn't the same as a balanced budget in practice. And to quote your linked article:

>State balanced budget requirements in practice refer to operating budgets and not to capital budgets. Operating budgets include annual expenditures--such items as salaries and wages, aid to local governments, health and welfare benefits, and other expenditures that are repeated from year to year. State capital expenditure, mainly for land, highways, and buildings, is largely financed by debt

It is much easier to balance the budget when you ignore all those capital expenses.

Also there are other complexities involved. You can look at what happened in Illinois a few years back as an example. They basically didn't have an official state budget for multiple years. That didn't stop them from racking up costs and debt. It contributed to a debt crisis that the state is still trying to claw its way out of.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by nobody9999 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:32PM (#25448185)
>Most states are run on a deficit and several states are already near bankruptcy.

The first isn't true at all. Most US States are forbidden to run deficits[0].

Which is why many states are already cutting services and laying off workers.

What's more, there are significant restrictions in most states on when and how they can raise money by issuing debt obligations (bonds).

With sales and income tax revenues plummeting in many states, that leaves them with few options other than cutting services, laying off workers and slashing public programs.

Without Federal assistance, things are going to get much worse before they get better.

[0] https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-are-state...

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by pkaye on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:09PM (#25446974)
Florida is already a taker state instead of a giver. Why should we give them more if they can just tax themselves for the difference?

https://rockinst.org/issue-area/new-yorks-balance-of-payment...

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by southeastern on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @08:58PM (#25451440)
Seriously, OP's argument makes no sense. It's just distracting from the issue of the federal government's failures. This constant distraction is part of why the government is able to fail so badly without any consequences.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by uoaei on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:41PM (#25446521)
> why should Floridians pay federal income taxes to subsidize closed businesses in California?

Because Florida benefits immensely from supporting a state which has, if it were a country, the 6th highest GDP in the world.

The economy in Florida would be heavily affected if California left the union.

Your question is basically like asking "why do federations exist?"

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by nradov on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:14PM (#25450082)
No one has seriously suggested seceding from the union. The survival or bankruptcy of some small businesses in California has very little impact on Florida.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by uoaei on Saturday December 19, 2020 @05:49PM (#25482014)
Obviously not literally seceding, I am referring to the impact of economic disruption.

"Some small businesses" is a washy phrase with no substance.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by djsumdog on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:21PM (#25446161)
I feel like rural areas are going to keep their small businesses alive and well, while city restaurants and service industry will collapse. Seattle and Portland will be Detroit within 2 years. Even after COIVD, that type of devastation would take a decade to recover from, if they had sound leaders. They don't, and it's only going to make it worse.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by TheBlight on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:09PM (#25445964)
But the federal government didn't shutter any businesses. You can thank the state governors, county officials and big city mayors for that.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by OminousWeapons on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:14PM (#25446033)
My point is that the governors and mayors always had to weigh the economic damage they were doing to people whenever they made a shutdown decision, which resulted in erratic, complicated, and somewhat nonsensical shutdown orders. If the federal government had backstopped the economy properly and compensated any business or person directly affected by a shutdown, then the governors / mayors would have been able to take more coordinated, effective action. You can't maintain aggressive shutdowns if every day of your shutdown is destroying peoples' bank accounts.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by djsumdog on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:28PM (#25446277)
The way the US is structured makes this very difficult. We're not a country of countries like the United Kingdom, but the US is a country of States. Despite our federal solidification over the past century, states still have a lot of autonomy. Passing marijuana laws that contradict Federal law, is probably the most prevalent example of this.

The Federal government tried to create PPP programs, but look at what happened. Multi-million dollar franchises pulled in huge chunks while small restaurants got nothing. It's the 2008 bank bailouts all over again. It's like PS5/nvidia graphics cards scalping for businesses.

The corruption flows through every system, and the blame can be focuses on businesses with the means and people and legal staff to take advantage of the situation at the expense of every possible competitor.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by pkaye on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:17PM (#25447114)
They could have done a tiered fund. A PPP pool for businesses under $<1M, $<10M, etc.

Also Trump removed the independent watchdog for the coronavirus funds.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/07/trump-removes-indep...

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by nradov on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:24PM (#25446221)
Most governors and mayors didn't perform a rigorous cost benefit analysis before making shutdown decisions. Many of the lockdown orders were arbitrary and capricious, full of exemptions for politically favored groups. These were largely faith based policies without proper scientific backing from an evidence-based medicine perspective.

Free money from the federal government wouldn't have improved that situation. If state governors want to shut down businesses then state governments should be issuing relief payments.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by lumost on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:14PM (#25447079)
When we’re talking about 30% of national GDP and millions of lives, then turning it into a state v state issue doesn’t sound like a recipe for long term stability.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by ryathal on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:39AM (#25455427)
A lot of free money went to governments, my state largely squandered that money, and hoped more would come to actually help people. They used it to avoid any sort of budget cuts for the current and previous years, and even set up a tuition grant that helps our governor look better at achieving campaign promises.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by TheBlight on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:16PM (#25446065)
What in your view would've been more effective action? Do you not think enough businesses are closed or enough masks are being worn?
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by hpkuarg on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:21PM (#25446155)
Big city mayors, some of whom then turned around and dined indoors at $400 a plate kind of restaurants.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by TheBlight on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:24PM (#25446208)
Don't leave the governors out! They're enjoying the party too!
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by war1025 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:01PM (#25445880)
> Americans should all remember that when the next election rolls around

Unfortunately, for most people the truth is that they "like their representatives, it's all the rest that are corrupt"

Plus Washington is close enough to a 50/50 split right now that you can always just say it was the other party holding everything up.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by djsumdog on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:23PM (#25446185)
Our election processes have never been fair. Big money has typically been the largest factor. This year solidifies it .. at least for half the population. The American psyche has been split in two by a corrupt and runaway media.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by disgrunt on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:14PM (#25446029)
It was state governors who shut their states down. Not the federal government.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by bearjaws on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:41PM (#25446512)
The state isn't in any position to offer emergency loans / bailouts. The federal government needed to work with the states that were being hit hardest by Coronavirus, when they were being hit. Instead some got a random $1200 check and some PPP loans, when many didn't even need it yet.

States had a choice, leave everything open and deal with the loss of life, and still suffer as people would be going out less. OR shut down to help prevent deaths and hope the federal government would help (which it should have).

Instead it became a political battle to give corporate immunity, and nobody got anything after March.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by kthxbye123 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:48PM (#25446627)
The whole game for the social sociopaths is to pretend that the federal government had no obligation to provide for people's livelihoods during lockdown - which they absolutely did, obviously. This was wholly intentional, to sabotage health-and-safety conscious Democratic local governments, and force them into the Sophie's choice of mass unemployment or mass death among their constituents (local GOP leaders, for the most part, of course didn't actually care about mass death OR mass employment, since their constituency is the handful of billionaires who fund the whole party and right-wing ideological apparatus; so they were able to further sabotage the health-and-safety efforts by simply refusing to implement any).

The state and local governments that shutdown did the right thing - they put the health and safety of their populations first. The federal government failed them by defaulting on its obligations. It did this intentionally.

[dead]
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by TheBlight on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:14PM (#25446032)
While overtly this fell on the state and local governments, I think it's probably safe to assume the party line came from the top of the party. Most of the governors and local officials are all just along for the ride themselves in the hopes of appeasing the party and maybe becoming president one day.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:19PM (#25446118)
Not saying you're wrong, but... what particularly did the Democrats do (or not do)?
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by rayiner on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:08PM (#25446966)
Listening to Elizabeth Warren in 2019 (who I respected tremendously as someone who previously announced she was a "capitalist to her bones") put an intersectionality spin on every policy item did it for me. At first, the whole "person of color" thing was just weird, and now I find it incredibly grating and alienating. Like I can't listen to one of her speeches without feeling "othered."
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by tptacek on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @08:01PM (#25451009)
It's a real problem with her, the language stuff; I cringed every time I saw her say "Latinx" during the campaign, which is a term Latinos overwhelmingly reject, and was originally intended to refer to LGBT Latinos. Obama landed some glancing hits on her presentation style in his most recent book, too.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by pen2l on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @09:21PM (#25451604)
I've been really curious about where the "Latinx" actually originates from -- I'd suspected in academia, and indeed the first usage seems to have been in a paper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latinx#Origins

Why does it seem cringey? Is it cringey when Fauci uses it? He uses it every time he's referring to Latinos. This Vice video, where Dee asks people on the street about the term, gives the impression that Latino (or, ahem, Latinx :)) folks are mostly fine with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zx4m2ok6D0

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by tptacek on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @09:36PM (#25451720)
Here's Pew, which I trust more than a Vice person-on-the-street interview: just 1/4 of Latinos have even head of the term, and only 3% use it. They're mostly just wondering what the hell Very Online People are on about.

https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in...

Again: zero objection to people using the term "Latinx" for themselves! If you tell me you identify "Latinx", that's the term I'll use for you. I understand that it's a serious and important term, for instance, for LGBT people. But that just makes Warren's use of it all the goofier. When she talks about helping Latinx people, are we meant to infer that she's specifically talking about LGBT people of Latin descent?

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by rayiner on Thursday December 17, 2020 @09:22AM (#25455764)
Latino/Latina are from Spanish. The words are gendered because it’s a gendered language. When non-Spanish speakers change it to Latinx it comes across as them declaring Spanish as problematic and “fixing” someone else’s language for them. There is also a class/education issue. It’s a term originating in academia that non-college educated people have mostly never heard of. Being called by a label that you don’t recognize is alienating. Languages are extremely sensitive things. People go to war over them. It’s one thing for academics to mess around with words, but politicians should be very careful about doings so.

Matt Yglesias has a good article on it: https://www.vox.com/2020/11/5/21548677/trump-hispanic-vote-l...

More generally, Elizabeth Warren leans too much on intersectional rhetoric and it’s alienating at least to me and I suspect others. I’m a “brown person” but I don’t see America as a country where “white” people are in perpetual conflict with “black and brown” people. See: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/18/opinion/biden-latino-vote...

> Progressives commonly categorize Latinos as people of color, no doubt partly because progressive Latinos see the group that way and encourage others to do so as well. Certainly, we both once took that perspective for granted. Yet in our survey, only one in four Hispanics saw the group as people of color.

> In contrast, the majority rejected this designation. They preferred to see Hispanics as a group integrating into the American mainstream, one not overly bound by racial constraints but instead able to get ahead through hard work.

Going full critical race theory like Warren has, and talking about how we must fix the water infrastructure maintenance deficit because of how it affects “black and brown” people is otherizing. You’re putting me in a bucket and now I’m thinking about that instead of water infrastructure.

It would be easy for Democrats if all non-whites had a strong pattern of voting out of racial solidarity. And this premise filters into their rhetoric. But I’m not going to vote Democrat out of racial solidarity and frankly I deeply resent the implication.

It’s also alienating in a similar sense to “latinx.” A lot of the progressive rhetoric over the last four years centered this idea of a rainbow coalition of “black and brown” and LGBT people. What does that coalition have in common? If you look at countries run by “black and brown people” homosexuality is often illegal. Even among American Muslims, which tend to support same-sec marriage as a legal matter, it is strongly taboo. Almost no US mosques will perform a same-sex marriage and few American Muslims openly self-identify as LGBT: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/28/us/lgbt-muslims-pride-progres.... Most Bangladeshis I know are Democrats and have reconciled themselves to the platform, but would be very upset if their son came out as gay.

The only thing that coalition actually has in common, other than universal American principles, is a common enemy. That doesn’t make for great politics, so part of the whole progressive project is putting for example an LGBT-friendly face on Islam. Folks like Ilhan Omar are not representative of Muslims in America. American Muslims are socially conservative—traditional notions of family part of their identity. They voted for George W. Bush. But progressives have made Ilhan Omar the face of Muslims in America. (Even my dad, who is a moderately liberal Democrat, mentioned this as something that annoyed him without prompting.) And all that just feels like white progressives hijacking people’s identity for political purposes.

Now, it’s fair game to solicit the vote of identity groups based on issues. George W. Bush’s pitch to Muslims was “you’re socially conservative and religious and so am I.” That’s appealing on a specific issue and leaves open the independence of the groups.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by pen2l on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:09AM (#25456204)
Don't entirely agree with what some of what you've said but upvoting you nevertheless as clearly you argue in good faith (and to get you out of negative score), that aside -- you say:

> It’s a term originating in academia that non-college educated people have mostly never heard of. Being called by a label that you don’t recognize is alienating.

Okay, so the word is an academic construct. But it comes from a good place: an effort to be more inclusive. I will understand if everyday folks don't subscribe to the latest code and vocabulary of a younger progressive society, and I understand any resistance to new vocabulary, but that is no reason to stop progress. You can't deny that embedded in our language are the biases of our history, and it's possible that a natural evolution of language may not get us out of this, so why not let a prescriptivist push get us out, even if it comes from academia?

Separately, curious to hear your thoughts on changes imposed by Académie Française in recent years toward a similar direction of being more inclusive.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by rayiner on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:53AM (#25457344)
Let me address the issue from a slightly different angle. White progressives calling Latinos “Latinx” is in some respects a demand for assimilation into prevailing American ideas of gender-identity inclusivity. (I recognize that it’s not an exclusively American phenomenon, but the movement has more purchase in the United States than in say Guatemala.)

There is a long tradition of Americans saying “it’s fine if you’re Catholic or Polish so long as you believe the same things that Protestant Americans believe.” This continues to this day. Whites set the direction of the Democratic Party on social issues, and Black/Hispanic/Muslim people, who are much more conservative on social issues, follow. (Obviously there are many Black/Hispanic/Muslim people who are socially progressive. But on average they’re much more conservative: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/02/27/5-facts-abo.... For example, 55% of Black Democrats say “you must believe in God to be moral.” Just 11% of white Democrats say that.)

I’m not criticizing all that, I’m just noting that it’s a power dynamic that clearly exists. However, these days, nobody wants to come out and say “it’s okay if you’re a Muslim immigrant from a country where homosexuality is illegal, but you’re in America now and you’re going to have to get cool with LGBT rights.” What happens instead is social engineering of people’s’ identities by media, academia, and political leaders. Ilhan Omar and Linda Sarsour are amplified and become the face of Islam. Movies and TV are filled with socially progressive hijabis. Progressive Muslim academics and writers are amplified and given platforms.

To use another example: fully half of Black people still do not accept same-sex marriage. Just half say abortion is morally acceptable. When was the last time a socially conservative Black person got any mainstream media airtime? Same thing with Hispanic people opposed to abortion? A Muslim who holds social views held by nearly all of the world’s billion Muslims?

I’m not objecting to the sentiment. I agree Bangladeshis who come to America should leave Bangladeshi views of homosexuality in the old country. What’s creepy to me is the mechanics of how this works. Instead of telling people, “you’re in America now and here’s what we believe” we are redefining peoples’ identities. We selectively amplify Bangladeshi voices that happen to agree with white progressives.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by rayiner on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:09AM (#25456846)
Inclusivity isn’t a single axis. When a politician calls a group of people by a label that’s unfamiliar to them and that they don’t recognize or identify with, that’s exclusionary and alienating.

Example: I’m from Bangladesh. It means “country of Bengalis.” We fought an independence war with Pakistan to have a country for our own ethnic/linguistic group. The name of the country is exclusionary of the non-Bengali ethnic and linguistic groups, including the indigenous population. If an academic wants to come up with a different label for us, they can do that. But politicians shouldn’t use it until we broadly accept the label. It’s not Elizabeth Warren’s place to take a prescriptive position on what Bangladeshis call themselves.

Stepping back, identity and how it’s defined and what it’s defined by reference to is an explosively complicated issue. Focusing on issues like gender inclusivity is a western, and particularly American, way of looking at language and identity labels. Different cultures will sort out how they want to approach these issues. It’s not something white Americans like Elizabeth Warren should just parachute into.

> Académie Française

The French can do what they want with their own language. But as an Anglophile I have to point out that they could easily solve the problem of gendering in French by just speaking English instead. That would also solve their problem of having to come up with French words for things invented by English-speakers.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by JamesBarney on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:29AM (#25456413)
Rayiner is making an argument about whether politicians should use the word. He argued no and I think that's right.

You're trying to pull him into a separate argument which is should individuals use latinx or latino. (The obvious answer here is to use whatever word who you're talking to would prefer)

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by jahaja on Thursday December 17, 2020 @09:29AM (#25455831)
All this huff and puff just for someone using a gender neutral term? I can't understand why people get upset by something so unimportant. Or to get upset for not using it for that matter.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by xyzzyz on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:01AM (#25456130)
Imagine if a US presidential candidate were insisting on using the term “Americanxs” every time they referred to their voters.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by jahaja on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:11AM (#25456223)
What would be the point of that? "Americans" is already gender neutral?
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by xyzzyz on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:36AM (#25456480)
And what do you think is the “gender neutral” term that Spanish speakers use when they refer to group of people of Latin American origin? It surely is not “latinxs”.

“What would be point of that?”, yes, that’s exactly the issue. It would seem weird, forced and foreign, just like “latinxs” does to people it is purported to refer to.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by jahaja on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:59AM (#25456727)
It seems to be a bit strange to complain about how widespread the use is of a newly coined term.

I assume that much of this "outrage" is some kind of a "culture war" thing. Instead of focusing on important stuff people get all distracted with "old man angry at minor change" and bike shed things like this ad infinitum.

> yes, that’s exactly the issue

What? it's not needed with "Americans" so there's no need. In some languages gender neutral terms can be legitimately used as a shortcut for using both after each other or similar.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by xyzzyz on Thursday December 17, 2020 @12:43PM (#25457962)
> What? it's not needed with "Americans" so there's no need

But that’s the point: it’s not needed in Spanish either. Spanish speakers are totally fine without new inventions like “latinx”. They see those strange American people, who usually don’t even speak Spanish, try to impose their own new norms on what the Latinos should be called, and they don’t like this kind of cultural imperialism.

The whole problem stems to a large degree from lack of understanding the English speakers have for gendered languages. English is, with few exceptions, not gendered. The exceptions are rare enough that people who care can try to lobby for using gender neutral terms, like they are used for almost everything else. This is often against established language patterns, but since English is, in general, not gendered, it doesn’t seem all that out of place.

That’s not how gendered languages works. In gendered languages, everything had a gender. In Spanish, chair is female, and desk is male. When you use an adjective, you need to use it in an appropriate gendered form to match the gender of the noun. Spanish speakers are completely used to it, and don’t see this as anything special or in need of rectification: that’s just how their language works. External efforts to make some specific words gender neutral are just strange and foreign to them.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by jahaja on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:38PM (#25460808)
You seem to be mixing gendered nouns with something that's actually referring to actual people. Two different things.

In German for example every job ad title need to be suffixed with (m/w). It would be handy if it was gender neutral. I don't understand how the grammatical gender of a random noun e.g. wine, that happens to be masculine in German, is comparable to something that's referring to actual persons.

In Swedish for example there are the pronouns "han" (he) and "hon" (she), and now there's a gender neutral "hen". The latter being very handy when you don't know the gender of the person that's being talked about. But of course this addition has made culture warring people (a.k.a right-wing folks) very upset in Sweden too.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by xyzzyz on Thursday December 17, 2020 @05:28PM (#25461346)
> You seem to be mixing gendered nouns with something that's actually referring to actual people. Two different things.

No, because when you refer to actual people, you still need to use a gendered noun. The issue is which gendered nouns to use, and different language have different rules about it.

In German, for example, one just like in Spanish needs to match the gender of the adjective to the gender of the noun. However, unlike in Spanish, German doesn't really have gender distinction in plural, and you generally use the same form to refer to group of people regardless of whether it comprises of only males, only females, or whether it's mixed.

Spanish, however, has gendered plural, and it also has a rule that whenever one refers to a group of people, one uses female gender noun only if the group comprises of only females. Whenever the group is fully male or mixed, one uses masculine form of the noun. So, a group of Latino men is "latinos", a group of Latino women is "latinas", but the mixed group of Latino men and women is actually "latinos" again. To add to that, the masculine plural version of the word "latinoamericano" is "latinoamericani", but the feminine version is "latinoamericanas", and not "latinaamericanas" (this is a compound word, and not an adjective-noun pair, hence the "latino" doesn't get declensed to "latina")

In short, any time you refer to group of Latin Americans in Spanish that doesn't happen to be all female, you'll always be saying "latino", and never "latina". Hence, the word "latinx" is solving a nonexistent problem, same as the word "Americanxs" would in English.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by jahaja on Thursday December 17, 2020 @05:48PM (#25461550)
Why did you skip the Swedish example? That's the most similar to this. It's just a shortcut.

This is English speaking folks that have adopted a Spanish word and are now making it gender neutral by skipping the last letter. They are under no obligation to continue to follow the the original language's grammar. We would have a major linguistical crises on our hands if that was so.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by xyzzyz on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:09PM (#25461732)
> Why did you skip the Swedish example?

Because I don't know anything about Swedish language :)

> This is English speaking folks that have adopted a Spanish word and are now making it gender neutral by skipping the last letter.

Which is silly, because "Latinos" is already gender neutral in its actual use, both in Spanish and in English. It declenses in Spanish using masculine form, but as the above example of chair and desk, grammatical gender of a noun doesn't have to say anything about gender of whatever it refers to. It does in the case of the word "latinos", but it only says that the group is not all-female: this is the gender neutral form.

> They are under no obligation to keep following the the original language's grammar.

Sure, there is no obligation. They could also decide to just call all groups of people from Latin America "Latinas", or just do away with that stem altogether, and just use "Hispanic" instead. Of course, in the former case, the Spanish speakers would be very confused that Americans keep insisting on only referring to females, and in the latter, the Brazilians might get confused why they are now called Hispanic. But, they'd be wrong to have any concerns about this, because languages are completely arbitrary, and Americans are under no obligation to have their language make any sense or be consistent with anything else.

The above is, of course, absurd, just like the word "Latinxs". Just use the word Latinos, which is already gender neutral, if you happen to care about it.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by dragonwriter on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:01AM (#25464889)
> It does in the case of the word "latinos", but it only says that the group is not all-female:

It doesn't even say that; it only means that the groups is not known to be all-female, as the masculine grammatical gender is used for indeterminate as well as mixed human gender.

> The above is, of course, absurd, just like the word "Latinxs". Just use the word Latinos, which is already gender neutral, if you happen to care about it.

Or, since Latinx is an adjective (not a noun), use “Latin” which American English, at least, already did before adopting the Spanish Latino/Latina. If we're dropping it for a non-Spanish gender-neutral English adjective with the same meaning, why not revert to the one we were using before that was only dropped to respect the language of the described population?

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by jahaja on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:52AM (#25464842)
> It does in the case of the word "latinos", but it only says that the group is not all-female: this is the gender neutral form.

And that requires information about a groups composition ahead of time doesn't it?

Anyway, I think it's important to remember that this is English speaking folks that are trying to be more inclusive and finding "Latinos" to refer primarily to a group of males. They may even disagree with the original preference of Spanish to go with Latinos over Latinas for a mixed composition.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by xyzzyz on Friday December 18, 2020 @10:46AM (#25468144)
> And that requires information about a groups composition ahead of time doesn't it?

No, because when you know nothing about composition of the group, you use the gender neutral form (masculine) instead of feminine one.

> English speaking folks that are trying to be more inclusive and finding "Latinos" to refer primarily to a group of males.

When American use the word “people”, it primarily refers to groups of Americans. Should they be more inclusive and invent a term, say, maybe peoplxs, that includes also non-Americans? That’s absurd, of course.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by jahaja on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:07PM (#25469182)
> When American use the word “people”, it primarily refers to groups of Americans. Should they be more inclusive and invent a term, say, maybe peoplxs, that includes also non-Americans? That’s absurd, of course.

Sorry, but this makes no sense to me at all.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by xyzzyz on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:14PM (#25470747)
Exactly: just like latinxs.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by jahaja on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:35PM (#25471599)
It's not the same thing?
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by rayiner on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:08PM (#25462607)
> This is English speaking folks that have adopted a Spanish word and are now making it gender neutral by skipping the last letter. They are under no obligation to continue to follow the the original language's grammar.

Don’t you see how that makes it worse? The English word-Latin—is already gender neutral! Americans adopted “Latino” as gesture to the large number of Spanish speakers living in America. It’s not just a borrowed word Americans happen to use, it’s a word used to refer to a large Spanish-speaking minority group living in the country.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by jahaja on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:36AM (#25464741)
But "Latin" is ambiguous and normally not used to describe people of Latin-American decent, at least not in Europe, and the emphasis in America seem to be towards Spanish speaking countries rather than the Latin/Romance languages as a whole.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by rayiner on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:04PM (#25462582)
This isn’t about using a gender neutral pronoun with respect to a specific person. It’s about English-speaking people trying to change the label used for an entire group of mostly immigrant people by slicing and dicing a Spanish word and adding an English ending to it.

It’s like if I started calling you “Swedix.”

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by jahaja on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:31AM (#25464710)
> It’s like if I started calling you “Swedix.”

It would be comparable if English already divided up in Swedish and Swedishess or similar.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by mrguyorama on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:10PM (#25446994)
Don't you know? Democrat state governors and reps were just supposed to let people die for the economy!
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by matthewmacleod on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:39PM (#25446464)
The FEDERAL government didn't do anything.

Sounds like you do understand the issue then after all.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by djsumdog on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:20PM (#25446133)
> The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the federal government

It's more complex than that. The UK is keeping things stable/frozen, but with nothing being produced, the value of their money is shifting.

You cannot keep paying people to do nothing. You have people in jobs where they are still employed, saving tons (because there's nothing to spend it on) and record buying of future e-waste (Going back to the 2000s, PS3 prices were back to normal two weeks before x-mas Christmas. PS5s are still $1000+ on eBay), and the income inequality is growing between those who happen to be in safe industries and those who weren't .. and it's arbitrary. Nothing has changed for the manager at a Wal-Mart, or a UPS driver or an engineer, but it has for the restaurant manager or someone who owns a small corner store in California.

The completely arbitrary and almost random lock-down decisions have crushed all small business, giving over their entire customer bases to large big box stores.

The people with their small businesses don't want handouts. They'll take it sure, but they want to work. Some have shifted and found new creative ways to make money. That's the nature of capitalism. You do what you have to, within the limits we've evolved over the past 100 years (no more child labor; pure capitalism without regulation is bad), to offer goods and services people want. But many are struggling.

In contrast, the earlier larger unemployment payments provided a perverse incentive to keep people from returning to jobs that had reopened. Lowering them a bit has helped those return to jobs that were there, but it's been devastating to those who have nothing to go back to.

We cannot just inject money. Social welfare has been a disaster in many respect. Only only need to watch modern documentary that break the bubble: "What Killed Michael Brown" and "Uncle Tom" to see how the perverse incentives from badly constructed government systems actually hurt a lot of low income communities and destroyed families.

There is a lot of talk about "A great reset," used in many countries to indicate a global agenda to fundamentally change economic models. Make no mistake, people at the top with influence are not going to give up or redistribute their wealth. Bezos, Gates and others at the top will hold on to their wealth. But reconstruction could destroy people under a certain income threshold if it's not done correctly.

People need merit and value, and the draconian COVID regulations have removed personal agency from the masses.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by mindslight on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:38PM (#25446446)
What has been gradually removing personal agency from the masses is this ever-growing debt black hole, accumulating for decades.

Small business owners aren't feeling some pressing desire to continue their craft during the pandemic, beyond that of anyone with a passion. What's really driving their desperation is needing to pay rent, as the banks continue operating as normal, demanding their periodic tribute, and threatening to confiscate businesses if they don't find some way to pay up.

You said "people with their small businesses don't want handouts". The problem is that they've internalized rent as some inherent fact of life, while viewing anything that could mitigate rent as a "government handout" - despite decades of government financial meddling being responsible for this jam!

The direct solution was/is to suspend all rent/mortgages denominated in USD, and let the pain accrue to those who are usually benefiting from vacuum-up economics. Instead, as always, disinvolved capital was given a pass (along with a huge bailout!) while the political machine went to work dividing the productive members of society to distract from their real enemy.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by rbritton on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:19PM (#25447149)
> The completely arbitrary and almost random lock-down decisions have crushed all small business, giving over their entire customer bases to large big box stores.

The response here in Washington State has resulted in permanent closure of more businesses than deaths with covid within the state.