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Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:27AM (#25245625)
Personally I prefer the plethora of OSes approach, and I never been a big UNIX fan to start with.

Yes it does have a couple of nice ideas, and it was much better to use than Windows 3.x + MS-DOS, but that is about it.

All the UNIX based OSes that I really appreciate, have moved beyond it, namely NeXTSTEP, Solaris/NeWS, Irix, Plan 9/Inferno.

Thankfully only BSD and GNU/Linux are stuck into being a continuum of UNIX clones without much to add, when you see their conferences it always boils down to kernel features or filesystems.

GNU/Linux has the ingredients to make an Amiga like desktop experience, with D-BUS, GNOME/KDE, but the fragmentation and love for POSIX CLI applications just doesn't make it worthwhile to try to make it work.

Look at iOS, macOS, Android, Windows (UWP), GenodeOS, Fuchsia, Haiku, Azure Sphere for the pursuit of modern ideas in OS research. The fact that some of those have a POSIX like kernel (or deeply customise Linux kernel) it is just an implementation detail of the overall architecture.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by nix23 on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:24AM (#25253047)
>NeXTSTEP, Solaris/NeWS, Irix, Plan 9/Inferno.

With the Exemption of Plan9 all the OS's you named are pure Unixes. As a example FreeBSD is nearly a mirror of Solaris. Nexstep was pure BSD with a Mach Kernel (OO development was the great seller on NextStep)...Irix? Well OpenGL and XFS is available under Linux.

>iOS, macOS, Android, Windows (UWP), GenodeOS, Fuchsia, Haiku, Azure Sphere for the pursuit of modern ideas in OS research

Haiku modern?? BeOS is 25 years old.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Monday November 30, 2020 @08:07AM (#25253324)
Narrowing your understanding to the kernel delivered with the UNIX variants that I mentioned, only reveals lack of understanding of what the user and developer experience feels like in such OSes.

Hint, it goes beyond doing CLI applications and daemons.

BeOS is 25 years older and 25 years younger than UNIX, yes modern.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by nix23 on Monday November 30, 2020 @09:39AM (#25254144)
>Hint, it goes beyond doing CLI applications and daemons.

So please tell me then. All Unixes have more or less the same FHS, Solaris did nothing different as..lets say BSD in the User-space nor did Irix, so tell me what did Solaris or Irix and even Nextstep fundamentally different then any other Unix?

>BeOS is 25 years older and 25 years younger than UNIX, yes modern.

Yeah lets stop here, it's getting ridiculous.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:02PM (#25258220)
Solaris had NeWS, ToolTalk, OpenLook, the only UNIX alternative to Windows IO complementation ports, explored the idea of Java based kernel drivers.

Irix had Inventor.

NeXT had the mach kernel, drivers written in Objective-C, Renderman, EOF, WebObjects, DisplayPostscript.

Ridiculous is putting up with certain clueless people online that don't have any idea of what they are talking about.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by nix23 on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:21PM (#25259141)
Now you mix User-space programs with kernels, we talked about Operating-system (Unix), if you see it like that Windows or Linux is the most modern OS, because most Software.

>explored the idea of Java based kernel drivers

They even made a Java OS a Browser and a Chip, we all know what a stupid decision that was, you could have say ZFS which is against the unix philosophy (one program one job) but you forgot that i think.

>Irix had Inventor.

Windows had paint, and Mac the almighty HyperCard...but that's NOT the Operating-system nor does it make any difference Unix-wise.

>NeXT had the mach kernel, drivers written in Objective-C

Ahh, now you bring the kernel argument i already brought, yeah drivers written in the beloved Objective-C (is that a feature or a User-space thing?)...you know Multics was made with EPL waaay earlier.

They are pure and certified Unixes (not NeXT, but MacOS X is/was), based on Unix ideas..basta.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by otabdeveloper4 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @01:26PM (#25246887)
Looks like you missed the whole systemd and cgroups thing. The two are huge and novel developments in OS design, and much more significant than the GUI flimflam you pine for.

(Yeah, Linux is a server OS, not news.)

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Sunday November 29, 2020 @01:28PM (#25246911)
Systemd is nothing new, Linux copying comercial UNIXes and Windows/VMS, with the community dumping hate left and right on the authors.

cgroups has been a thing on mainframes for decades.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by otabdeveloper4 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @04:38PM (#25248321)
Everything "has been done before" in computing. The difference is a matter of degree and attention to detail.

And your comment about it having been a thing on mainframes underscores my point.

The server story for Linux is evolving (and maturing) greatly, and very quickly. The Linux of today is not at all like the Linux from 2010. To say that Linux is stuck in some sort of legacy UNIX quagmire is just silly.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:00PM (#25248887)
So what ideas are actually new, introduced by Linux crowd, instead of copied from either older UNIXes or mainframes?
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by jzwinck on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:28PM (#25249503)
How about recvmmsg? I never saw that before Linux, and haven't been able to find a reference to anything similar on say AIX or Solaris.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:27AM (#25251804)
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by jzwinck on Monday November 30, 2020 @09:21AM (#25253961)
Yes really. I wrote recvmmsg. You linked to recvmsg. They are not the same thing.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by nix23 on Monday November 30, 2020 @09:54AM (#25254321)
I never have seen a Bitrot resistant filesystem on Linux before NILFS.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by otabdeveloper4 on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:24AM (#25252112)
Did you read my comment? There are no "new" ideas in computing. Everything has already been invented in the 1960's. It's the finesse of execution that matters, not ideas.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Monday November 30, 2020 @08:09AM (#25253337)
I did and you are wrong, there are plenty of ideas to bring to the market, when one doesn't constrain themselves to copy mainframes and big iron UNIXes, and catching up with whatever Apple, Google and Microsoft do on UI/UX.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by nix23 on Monday November 30, 2020 @09:57AM (#25254353)
>It's the finesse of execution that matters, not ideas.

That's a crime to say "finesse" and "systemd" in the same discussion.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by anthk on Sunday November 29, 2020 @01:49PM (#25247036)
SystemD is like Solaris service manager, but far worse.

And, on cgroups, I think AIX has something like that but much, much, MUCH better.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by qz2 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @03:14PM (#25247681)
It’s even worse. Systemd, dbus and journald are basically service manager, DCOM and Event Log from windows, but worse!

It’s not the wrong type of solution but systemd is somewhat stinky compared to what we could have had.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Sunday November 29, 2020 @04:39PM (#25248327)
D-BUS ideas actually trace back to ToolTalk on Solaris.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ToolTalk

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by mixmastamyk on Sunday November 29, 2020 @02:14PM (#25247227)
What made Solaris sm better? Curious as I never used that one.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Sunday November 29, 2020 @02:04PM (#25247156)
It is called LPAR.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by monocasa on Sunday November 29, 2020 @04:13PM (#25248138)
It's called WPAR. LPARs are hypervisor level partitioning.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Sunday November 29, 2020 @04:36PM (#25248310)
You're right, I stand corrected.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by otabdeveloper4 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @04:39PM (#25248328)
Systemd does a lot more than just manage services. The underlying architecture is a generic resource and dependency management system.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by nix23 on Monday November 30, 2020 @10:01AM (#25254404)
>generic resource and dependency management system

Generic is the complete wrong word for systemd, it's the opposite of Generic.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by nix23 on Monday November 30, 2020 @09:46AM (#25254224)
Long time ago in a other galaxy there was a system called "time sharing system"

>The two are huge and novel developments in OS design

Yeah "new" since the 1960 on a Computer called PDP10 from DEC

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by tsm_sf on Sunday November 29, 2020 @03:33PM (#25247826)
The older I get, the more our devotion to the CLI feels like gatekeeping.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by mschaef on Monday November 30, 2020 @09:19AM (#25253926)
> The older I get, the more our devotion to the CLI feels like gatekeeping.

Nah... you can't take one of the handful of major styles of interaction with computing devices and diminish adherence to that style as just 'gatekeeping'. There are moments where the strengths of GUI interaction is useful (discovery of options, selection of individual objects, etc.), but modern systems are complex and large enough that you can't really walk away from the idea of expressing operations and state linguistically without walking away from tools you need to do your job efficiently (or at all). So yeah, maybe CLI is less accessible and more difficult for newcomers, but the problems they solve aren't necessarily easy, either.

However... I do think there are many opportunities for both better accessibility in CLI's and better interoperability between CLI's and GUI's. Better discovery of options in CLI would help (autocomplete, etc.), as would a better connection between the GUI and CLI worlds. (Lisp has some good ideas where the "terminal" remembers the object it prints and allows interaction with those objects, as opposed to just remembering a string character representation of them. Microsoft's Office applications similarly will write macro code for you as you interact with the UI - which is a great way to understand the relationship between the two worlds.)

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by 7thaccount on Sunday November 29, 2020 @04:50PM (#25248412)
I don't see it that way. My first computer used Win95 and I didn't get into CLI until college and then seriously at work. I'm not a Unix expert, but am blown away by how much more powerful it is than Windows in many uses. I even push files to a Linux server for analysis at times as I can tear through a file with grep/cut/awk/sort/uniq and some pipes very quickly and efficiently. There are many other technologies I know, yet the simple terminal is still the best approach for many of my uses. The design has stood the test of time for a reason and the compositional approach is nice. Nobody is gatekeeping here.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by otabdeveloper4 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @04:35PM (#25248302)
Gatekeeping from what? Linux is a server OS.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Sunday November 29, 2020 @04:37PM (#25248316)
Finally given up on "Year of Desktop Linux"?
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by otabdeveloper4 on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:26AM (#25252125)
I've been running desktop Linux for 20 years, but this isn't a hill I'm gonna die on. Kernel and userland developers treat Linux as a server OS first and foremost, and that's where the funding goes.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by the_af on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:01PM (#25248494)
The year of Desktop Linux arrived for me about a decade ago. Now I work, game, watch movies, edit graphics and photos, all on Linux.

I like and want the powerful combination of the CLI and GUI applications.

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by blub on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:09AM (#25252017)
The point of "Linux on the desktop" was not that it happens for you and the other commenter, but that Linux becomes mainstream. :) Never happened and unless something extraordinary occurs it likely never will. And Android doesn't count, obviously.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by the_af on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:49AM (#25253211)
True. But it also has the connotation that Linux is "not good enough" for the desktop, and this is false. Popularity has a lot of factors, sadly. A user-friendly Linux like Ubuntu is indeed "good enough" and has been so for years.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by pjmlp on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:39PM (#25248749)
Finally met one of the happy 1% from Steam surveys.
Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by the_af on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:45PM (#25249223)
Also GOG and Humble Bundle ;)

It's generally a joy to use Linux. In some cases (like HP LaserJet printers) even more painless than Windows and macOS!

Re:Little Things That Made Amiga Great by eitland on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:06PM (#25248940)
Hi, here's another one :-)

Happy Linux user since 2004/5.

Everything else is painful in some way or another.