Do it.
Come here to Europe.
The baseline level of self-awareness in people here is off the scale when you compare it to the typical Indian. People actually queue, instead of creating a melee at every counter. You're never worrying about people cutting you in lines. Cars stop at zebra crossings to let pedestrians cross. No one honks! They nod and smile "bonjour!" as they cross you on the street. There is no pollution here. The food is great, the coffee is even better, the $5 wine at your local grocery store is some of the best in the world. The employees you'll work with have some basic dignity and shame. If they don't know something, they'll admit it. They won't grossly lie on their resumes. You'll never hear the words "do the needful" or "prepone" or, my most hated "kindly revert back"! There is a basic amount of honesty here. You don't spend all your time worrying if the guy you're doing business with is fleecing you. You will find information about businesses online.
This place is as close to paradise as it gets on planet Earth.
Life, and especially youth, passes by in an instance. I highly advocate keeping this fact in mind in the face of do-gooders who judge you for your choices. The million small and large quality of life improvements lead to exactly that. A vastly higher quality of life.
I think it's more of a common theme to unequal and impoverished countries where enforcement of law is tenuous at best and people don't trust others. If trust collapses everyone only cares about themselves and their loved ones, if bribing a police officer will help your kid to get out of a DUI... So be it, you will be considered an idiot if you don't do what the rest of society does, whatever small corruption or abuse that is. Because people know they will get away with it so why hinder yourself for such a thing as moral and values?
I know it's a very broad generalisation of huge societies, unfortunately it's my experience growing up in Brazil and why I can't ever live there again.
You'd be surprised to experience firsthand how low values like integrity, ownership and shame rank for an overwhelming majority of people. The general rule of thumb is "get by, somehow, anyhow". Another trait is having little to no perspective on what a higher quality of life entails. It is awful, and depressing.
A handful of people who are hurt and frustrated by this, share the same sentiment as the parent comment.
Where did that saying come from in India?
Many such anachronisms exist; thankfully, they're dying out one by one. A few decades ago (in the last century, to be precise), it wasn't very uncommon for official letters to be signed off with "I remain, Sir, your obedient servant". Later, it was shortened to "yours obediently"; it vanished altogether, thankfully.
It is also partly from workplace culture and what their mentors and bosses did when they were junior, somewhat akin to the polite language you hear in the U.S. South. You can pick up mannerisms easily, when you are not sure what is the right way to behave.
Edit, for other's curious, as the person I'm replying to said, it's not racist per se, but has its origins in racist practice:
> The term originated in late nineteenth-century legislation and constitutional amendments passed by a number of U.S. Southern states, which created new requirements for literacy tests, payment of poll taxes, and/or residency and property restrictions to register to vote. States in some cases exempted those whose ancestors (grandfathers) had the right to vote before the American Civil War, or as of a particular date, from such requirements. The intent and effect of such rules was to prevent African-American former slaves and their descendants from voting, but without denying poor and illiterate whites the right to vote.
I often hear people use the phrase "call a spade a spade", thinking it's saying "if a card shows a spade, call it as a spade (when showing the hand)", but I've heard for a long time that phrase is also racist. Not growing up around anyone who ever used that phrase, I would have had no idea.
Makes me wonder how many other phrases out there in every day use don't have a happy meaning, even though at first glance they might seem innocuous.
The spade is question is a digging tool.
But "chink" is also an offensive term for a Chinese person, so "chink in one's armor" can be misunderstood, especially if what you are talking about actually involves a Chinese person. ESPN got in trouble a couple of times with it, even though they had used it thousands of times before without incident, because of a couple articles where the weakness they were describing on some team was a player who was Chinese.
They are both good places for many reasons but don't be fooled. There is still corruption (different quality and distribution).
Examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirecard_scandal#Aggressive_at...
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2018/06/0...
Humans are same irrespective of culture. Surface level features and behavior are different but thats it.
I hear your complaints. But does this really deserve a mention as a reason not to live in India? Are you really this upset over a few phrases that has no material impact on your life? Seems a bit pretentious.
I'll just say that your notion of what is worth getting upset about (or not) _might not_ apply to everybody else, and leave it at that :)
Fair enough that what is worth getting upset about for me doesn’t apply to others.
Without that, the word overreaction is meaningless.
I firmly believe that if you go to a country eager to impose your own culture and your own way of doing things, you'll see friction. If you're open-minded and willing to attempt to integrate, you'll find even a little bit goes a long way, and the locals will willingly meet you halfway.
As a 24-yr-old looking to emigrate within the next year or so, I couldn't agree more with your take.
I feel India as a country (I know I'm homogenizing India; but I feel exceptions are rare, if any) has decayed to a point where there's pretty much no hope left for folks with progressive views looking to lead a life (especially one with intellectual pursuits) on their own terms instead of conforming to incredibly regressive stuff that an overbearing "society" constantly howls into your ears with a bullhorn.
The most common route would be going there for Master's degree (MS or equivalent) and then later finding a job either before or immediately after graduating from your course.
But you can also try other avenues like directly trying for a job via work visa, get someone to sponsor you (via an immigration petition -- but you need a present a valid argument for this and also find someone you trust who've established themselves there), or find a partner there with whom you're willing to cohabitate.
I'd highly recommend trying for EU/Canada (as you mentioned yourself), Aus/NZ over the United States of America-- at least for the next few years until something resembling an immigration reform takes place -- unless if you have folks in the States who're willing to sponsor you or get you a good, well-paying H1B job.
Good luck!
Not in Italy though.
If enough people keep landing in Europe like this, I am pretty sure sooner or later, Europeans will be upset. It’s inevitable and human nature. Fixing your own place is better than crashing at somebody else’s.
To an extent, they are. But most of the conversation here seems to be about refugees and asylum seekers rather than legal immigrants. It helps that I'm more than willing to adopt the European way of life: fashion, food, work-life balance and all the rest of it.
As to your first point, that was the crux of my post. I no longer care (nor am offended by, mind you!) whether you judge me or not. I know how much vitriol coursed through my veins every day I was in Chennai, Bangalore, Delhi etc. And I know how much more at peace I am in France. I am a better human because of it; kinder, more useful to society etc. I would not trade any of it for more abstract notions of whether Europeans as a whole will be upset by the wider trends.
At the risk of judging you, are you sure you are kinder? You just wrote a paragraph about “the typical Indian” in a fairly condescending tone and how you get upset over trivial things like “Indian English” phrases.
It’s okay to not like the Indian lifestyle, not everyone has to, even if you are Indian. But please give people a chance and be less judgmental in order to actually practice kindness. Kindness isn't selectively applied to the people whose lifestyle you like.
It's not just the "lower tech companies", btw. It depends on many factors which include but are not limited to, prevailing company culture, your immediate manager, the existence of an implicit (or explicit) cabal that calls the shots in your team -- which cabal could well exist because its members passed out of the same three-letter institute, say ...
Which is just a long-winded way of saying that your soul is liable to be crushed in any kind of company in India if you have the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
But many european people who lean against open immigration policies will not make the rational distinction between you and someone who has not intergrated very well, and will instead judge you based on e.g. your skin color or your last name.
I hope you don't have to deal with that!
Not everyone has to be a revolutionary. It is indeed human to tire of the fight, and equally human to want to live life without having to fight all the way.
It is easy indeed to judge everybody else on the basis of (y)our value system; it is harder to walk a few steps in the other person's shoes.
No, because all the troublemakers left to the US!
I kid. I kid.
In the case of Australia, the trouble-makers were sent there against their will.
[1] https://guides.loc.gov/chronicling-america-fenian-invasions-...
Somehow, it actually turned out great for both.
Looks in my closet: Variety of legal assault rifles that would shock a European.
Looks in my Garage: 4x4 Pickup truck and a plated dirtbike.
America is packed to the brim with contrarian troublemakers.
But we make some damn good beers.
It might be our strip malls, fetish with our slave owning past, white supremest president, anti-science pro-gun culture, or our vast obesity and narcissism.
But somehow in all of that, I still love living here.
The Ultimate Frisbee is great, lots of creative people, and we are starting to decriminalize psychedelics.
> The Global Slavery Index estimates that on any given day in 2016 there were nearly 8 million people living in modern slavery in India. In terms of prevalence of modern slavery in India, there were 6.1 victims for every thousand people.
https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/findings/country-stu...
Also, Here’s a good short 8 min doc about Ultimate in the “Slums” of India.
Is it the culture that drives progress or is it progress that drives a civil culture?
IMHO first you become rich, then once you have time in your hands to actually think about improving things, you do just that.
Becoming rich in a corruption-ridden country, however, tends to be next to impossible for the few honest people living in such place... so it's really difficult for enough honest people to become wealthy enough to start pushing for change to improve not only their own lives, but also that of those who are less privileged.
If you do manage to push beyond such threshold, however, I believe most people will start benefitting from the generosity of their fellow citizens, and slowly start to behave accordingly, i.e. politely and honestly and just kindly. Once you get there, it seems this new level of kindness in society tends to self-sustain, and that's when you know a country has become part of the "first world".
It's rare, though... I believe the latest example is South Korea, which has become a very advanced nation in just a few decades... wish there were other examples, but I'm not aware of any others besides perhaps China - but China does not exactly have a population and government I would decribe as "kind" :/ but I think they will get there eventually.
'rich' -> 'improving things' are the same thing.
Individuals can 'get rich' just by being corrupt.
But a nation generally cannot.
Yes, natural resources will help, but they are never the true basis for progress, because without civility, the wealth generated from the resources will be fleeting.
Domestic consumption is generally the only long-term 'stay rich' strategy and it depends to a high degree on civility.
Saudi Arabia can do as they please and remain rich for a while, but it's not sustainable.
Canada, Australia can get a 'jumpstart' and have a 'cushion' due to natural resources but even then it's not obvious.
Most of Africa is rich in natural resources and they are poor, it's mostly a systematic issue.
I meant "improving things" not just for yourself, but for your community. Most rich people in poor country don't give a shit about their community, to the contrary, they exploit them as much as they can without giving anything back.
China seems to be the only exception here with PRC having draconian control over everything.
Like many things, it's a random variable when there is no civic function, but once it exists, then it's part of 'planning' aka 'generating wealth' in whatever terms that means for a group of people.
How does a township with 50% unemployment also have garbage lying about everywhere? The marginal cost of employing people to at least collect is minimal. A town with 50% unemployment is extremely rich in excess labour capacity, they should be able to hire people cheaply.'
Why not? Because social organization is probably abysmal.
You have made some great points but stop shitting on Indian English. I don't like it either but you are coming off as an elitist shitting on people who are taught these phrases growing up.
I don't have issues with the rest of your post, but what is wrong using these Indian English words?
In my place, "do the needful" could mean you need to pay a bribe before they can do their job. Another way it's phrased is, "you know what to do."
Today as we speak, the people are getting stabbed on the road (Cardiff) and in France islam extremists are responsible for terrorism.
It doesn't seem like it will be stay the paradise for long.
Yeah, let me tell you about what a dangerous shithole this place is becoming.... /s
America's a big place.
There is no racial tie to any place. As an Indian you have no more of a responsibility to improve India than you do France. You didn't choose that, you were just born there. That's like me mowing your lawn and then asking you to pay me whatever fee I came up with. India birthed you. But India did not first ask.
And whether the Europeans like you there or not is also irrelevant. You are a free agent. It's probably smart to be liked and to be useful but beyond that residence there is not a gift, it's a value exchange. No one would do that if they didn't get something from it (in aggregate).
Look out for yourself. Everything else will naturally come from that.
1. anonymous whistleblowing/exposes of shady business practices becomes a thing
2. hedgefunds like muddy waters emerge in India whose goal is to find rotten companies and profit off them through short selling
Hope it rains creative destruction on such companies.
We need this so much, the guy who started this in fact was posting anonymously, but all his accounts from Reddit, to twitter got taken down following which he was forced to use his real identity and the developments the past few weeks followed.
Then companies will use this to post fake "reports" about their competitors to damage their reputations. This is a societal issue, technological solutions do not solve societal issues.
Best of luck for your journey abroad.
This guy is in serious danger, trust me. I had to delete my linkedin post when my ex-manager called me to delete it otherwise the startup's employees will go crazy and try every which way to make my life hell.
Unfortunately, thats what you get in living in this country and trying to voice your opinion (without any strong political and financial credentials).
I have mentioned this earlier, people keep complaining of "brain drain" here in India as tech graduates keep leaving India for opportunities abroad; I thought I won't be that one and will do something for the country; it's just too difficult, I have add enough, I can't wait to leave.
I always tell people to just be anonymous, having your personal identity linked when saying anything remotely offensive is just an open invitation for personal attacks and things like this.