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Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by floatrock on Thursday November 19, 2020 @12:39PM (#25152015)
The thing was iconic... even if not everyone watching/playing Goldeneye knew it was a real radio telescope, it was nevertheless one of those science megaprojects that featured prominently in the popular zeitgeist and got more than one young kid excited about what's out there in the stars.

But infrastructure ages, and 60 years isn't a bad run. What comes next? Clearly there's going to be a capabilities gap for a while, but now that it's 60 years after its original design, what kind of design is going to replace it? Do we even need giant monolith dishes anymore?

Hoping a radio astronomer can chime in here. For example, I know out in New Mexico they have a distributed array of dishes (literally called the "Very Large Array", oh scientific creativity [0]) where, my understanding is, a bunch of computers stitch together all the individual signals and effectively get a resolution better than any single dish can. Is a design like that now state of the art, or does a monolithic design like Arecibo still give capabilities unique to single large dishes?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_Large_Array

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by aylmao on Thursday November 19, 2020 @12:59PM (#25152249)
> But infrastructure ages, and 60 years isn't a bad run.

Infrastructure can also be maintained and last longer than this, which is why I'm personally sad. Had Arecibo always had the ~60 year timeline, it would've been a bittersweet retirement, like Voyager. In this case I just feel like it's gone before it should. Arecibo has been receiving reduced funding since the early 2000s [1].

The end of an era, although thankfully not of science mega-projects. There's still plenty of cool ones operating or under construction.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_Observatory#Funding_co...

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by Retric on Thursday November 19, 2020 @01:20PM (#25152524)
It really depends on the structure. Giant steel objects are much harder to keep intact, to the point where non iconic objects are easier to replace once than maintain for 100+ years.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by dgr582systems on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:01PM (#25154306)
Like the (iconic) Sydney Harbour Bridge which requires continuous repainting. It’s very expensive to maintain.

https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/blogs/ag-blog/2013/1...

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by angus-prune on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:38PM (#25154700)
Constant painting is also a sign of efficiency.

Rather than a large number of people painting it for a small period of time, which requires a startup and close down overhead; they have instead resourced it so that they can keep a small number of people employed permenantly who accumulate expertise and minimise the mobilisations costs.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by dgr582systems on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:47PM (#25155268)
Agreed, but it is still more expensive in terms of direct costs than ‘do nothing’ which seems to be the case for the telescope.

Whoever downvoted me, thanks a bunch. Not sure why.

Running a team of painters still costs more than nothing. The cost of painting doesn’t cover the cost of ongoing inspections for metal fatigue etc etc. Engineering reviews, government oversight and so on.

Large bridges, especially with vehicle traffic, vibrate quite a lot and this is causes major ongoing concerns with fatigue, which means extensive monitoring along with the painting. More costs (not saying it’s unjustified).

Keeping a team going is efficient as you say, but more expensive than nothing.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by petschge on Thursday November 19, 2020 @08:15PM (#25156400)
Telescopes are not typically "do nothing. I am not aware of the details of Arecibo, but the big telescope in Greenbank has a paint crew work for 8 hours a day for multiple weeks each summer. And after several years the entire telescope is repainted and they start all over from the beginning. During the day time hours when the paint crew the is working the telescope can not be moved to point at objects, but is still taking data in the form of drift scans, recording whatever passes through the field of view of the telescope. A whole bunch of pulsars has been found that way.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by dgr582systems on Friday November 20, 2020 @04:00AM (#25158638)
To clarify, I only meant that the telescope has not been maintained (do nothing) lately as per the article. My fault for not writing more clearly.

As you say, it would be a lot of work to maintain if they wanted to keep Arecibo running.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by brnt on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:09PM (#25154956)
Now I really want to know what it's like working on the team that repaints the bridge for years or decades on end.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by nicoffeine on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:24PM (#25155105)
Probably not to different from refactoring the same CRUD applications over and over to keep up with with the other poor bastards who had to do it first.

Except you get exercise and fresh air.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by kortilla on Thursday November 19, 2020 @10:48PM (#25157146)
That’s a pretty bad analogy because you don’t refactor for maintenance. A better equivalent would be swapping out hard drives in a major storage system or servers in a data center on the scale of Google. It’s mind numbing work but it’s better than many other “pick and place” style manual labor. At least with painting a bridge the scenery is better although the temperature is more harsh.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by shagie on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:35PM (#25155179)
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by ashtonkem on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:50AM (#25157674)
Paint is preventative maintenance. It's a lot cheaper in the long run than not painting at all.

For those that don't know, paint should be considered a non-optional component of most iron or steel objects, since paint serves the important role of preventing rust formation. It's less important in most uses of aluminum, since aluminum oxide tends to form a protective layer instead of flaking away.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by arethuza on Friday November 20, 2020 @06:39AM (#25159501)
"Painting the Forth Bridge" is an expression in these parts describing a never ending task. However, with better pain this is apparently not the case anymore:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_Bridge#Maintenance

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by paul_f on Saturday November 21, 2020 @06:59AM (#25169215)
Another example of continuous painting is the Golden Gate bridge https://www.goldengate.org/bridge/bridge-maintenance/paintin...
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by mixmax on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:38PM (#25155201)
Not really - steel boats easily last 100 years. A friend of mine lives in one from around 1940 and the steel is in fine shape. As long as it's properly maintained there's no problem.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by Retric on Thursday November 19, 2020 @11:24PM (#25157296)
Yet, Modern ships have a lifespan of 25 to 30 years before corrosion, metal fatigue and a lack of parts render them uneconomical to operate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_breaking

With smaller boats labor is a higher fraction of construction costs vs raw materials. Going big results in massive increases in efficiency which almost paradoxically shift things to a shorter ship lifespan.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by goatinaboat on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:39PM (#25154072)
Giant steel objects are much harder to keep intact, to the point where non iconic objects are easier to replace once than maintain for 100+ years.

What about the Eiffel Tower? Or Blackpool Tower. That proves it can be done.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by oillio on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:50PM (#25154180)
Those are iconic. The difference between being possible and being cost effective.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by Miraste on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:30PM (#25154623)
Those are both made of iron.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by spiritplumber on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:56PM (#25155343)
So they're iconic and ironic.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by auxym on Thursday November 19, 2020 @08:09PM (#25156366)
The word is actually "ferrous", but, yeah.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by throwanem on Thursday November 19, 2020 @10:43PM (#25157127)
Steel is iron, with a carbon content somewhere in the range of about 0.25% to 2%.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by ashtonkem on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:53AM (#25157687)
No, steel is an alloy of iron, carbon, and other trace elements. Saying that "Steel is iron" is like saying "Bronze is copper".
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by throwanem on Friday November 20, 2020 @05:11AM (#25159020)
It isn't, but that's beside the point, which is that there's little enough difference between iron and steel that the Eiffel and Blackpool towers being made of wrought iron doesn't prevent them demonstrating that large structures engineered in steel are quite possible to maintain given the requisite investment in actually doing the maintenance.

(Saying that, for example, 300-series stainless, around 30-40% chromium and nickel, "is iron", could be fairly criticized this way. Mild steel not so much, and that was what I really had in mind with the statement, although I concede I didn't say so.)

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by onecommentman on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:44PM (#25154121)
I think the skyscrapers in NYC would beg to differ. But there is regular maintenance on those. Which is why this sounds like more like a failure in due diligence than the natural course of affairs.

But if it is obsolete, then that is another matter.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by jacquesm on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:39PM (#25155208)
Steel exposed to the weather is an entirely different story from steel inside a structure.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by rmason on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:49PM (#25153598)
Wouldn't it be infinitely cheaper to replace all the cables/fixtures and simply rebuild it? Or have the funders simply lost interest in it?

Is a GoFundMe campaign outside of the realm of possibility? I know that I'd contribute to such a worthy effort, but only if the rest of the players would pledge to fund current operations.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by ardy42 on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:17PM (#25153867)
> Is a GoFundMe campaign outside of the realm of possibility? I know that I'd contribute to such a worthy effort, but only if the rest of the players would pledge to fund current operations.

The biggest GoFundMe campaign according to Wikipedia only raised $25 million in 2020 dollars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoFundMe#Notable_projects, Bannon's et al's fraudulent We Build the Wall project). Arecibo cost $9.3 million to build in 1963 dollars (https://ethw.org/Milestones:NAIC/Arecibo_Radiotelescope,_196...), which is about $80 million in 2020 dollars. Even after one-time construction costs, millions in ongoing operating costs and maintenance would be required as well.

So, no, a GoFundMe campaign to rebuild it is not a possibility. Even hot-button political issues can't get close to the needed funds, and this is not ever going to be a hot-button issue.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by smnrchrds on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:23PM (#25154545)
Wikipedia itself raises more than $120 million per year. I don't think a telescope could attract as much in donations as Wikipedia, but it is interesting to see how high could donations possibly go.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by adventured on Thursday November 19, 2020 @07:16PM (#25156014)
The only reason Wikipedia can do that is because it's at the top of 50% of all Google search results. Constant epic scale exposure that Wikipedia has been able to use to push for donations (and further to build up a routine of it, an understanding of how Wikipedia operates, to millions of people). Realistically Arecibo has nothing like that to leverage. Donating to Wikipedia is a value to action instant feedback process: you land on a nice and helpful Wikipedia page, you derive value, you give some value back; again, Arecibo can't offer that kind of in the moment, click of a mouse, value-donation gratification to large numbers of donors. Arecibo's donor pool is mostly the Paul Allens of the world.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by jessaustin on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:11AM (#25157482)
TLAs have lots of money.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by rmason on Friday November 20, 2020 @05:12AM (#25159023)
Arecibo was in full operation before the cables broke. If you replace all the cables and hardware and reassemble it shouldn't cost anywhere near $80 million cause you're not starting from scratch.

Assuming the people supplying the operational funding want to continue to do so it shouldn't take more than low millions to get it going again.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by TylerE on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:25AM (#25157553)
It would be way more expensive then that. You can't just inflation adjust.

Construction has a lot more costs these days - have to take care of the environment, not kill your workers...

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by ufo on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:18PM (#25153869)
Unfortunately, I think the article is saying that the telescope is now at a point where decommissioning it in a controlled manner is the only safe option.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by myrandomcomment on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:56PM (#25155881)
The story states that there is belief that the work itself could trigger another collapse putting those doing the work at risk.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by RhodoYolo on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:03PM (#25153088)
Do you have a list or link to any mega projects you are currently excited about?
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by piyh on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:11PM (#25153169)
Starshade is a crazy concept that could do more for the search for life than any previous approach by allowing us to block out a star to directly view its planets.

https://youtu.be/-jA2ABHBc6Y?t=3652

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by kristianp on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:06PM (#25155443)
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by aylmao on Thursday November 19, 2020 @09:16PM (#25156708)
Three that sound pretty exciting to me are ITER [1], the Extremely Large Telescope [2] and the James Webb Space Telescope. I'm sure there is also more I haven't heard of yet!

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_Large_Telescope

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_Large_Telescope

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by peterwoerner on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:19AM (#25157521)
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by aylmao on Friday November 20, 2020 @04:29PM (#25165218)
I didn't know about these two. Thanks for sharing!
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by XorNot on Thursday November 19, 2020 @11:26PM (#25157302)
James Webb is the one I worry about the most. ITER has a taken a long time, but they're making steady forward progress with it.

Whereas I live in fear that James Webb will suffer a failure during launch or deployment that just turns it into a very expensive explosion.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by aylmao on Friday November 20, 2020 @04:26PM (#25165185)
I agree. Or even if nothing explodes, I'm worried that during the unfolding something will break or get stuck and, and unlike Hubble it won't be "easily" repairable (if at all). Hopefully this doesn't happen, because it is a once-in-many-decades project.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by koski_pindora on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:13PM (#25154415)
I'm sad as well. I was lucky to visit the site 2006.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by SiempreViernes on Thursday November 19, 2020 @01:54PM (#25152977)
Arecibo has been superseded in terms of raw aperture by FAST, and in terms of angular resolution by the interferometry arrays since 1966 at the latest when the One Mile observatory was doing 23 arcsecond resolution images. I think it's main somewhat unique capability was doing radar measurements of things in our solar system.

My impressions is the neglect comes from having done all the useful things it could do ages ago, and not finding anything new to help with in the areas of science that gets funding.

The state of the art interferometry arrays are ASKAP and MeerKAT currently, in the sense of being the newest and being precusors of the SKA which is the biggest project right now.

In terms of best in class, it varies with the specific frequency and which bit of the sky you want to look at and also with what you consider an observatory: the Event Horizon Telescope that resolved the M87 black hole has the worlds best resolution at their mm wavelengths, but it's really a bunch of existing telescopes collaborating and not a purpose built facility.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by RedOrGreen on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:03PM (#25154898)
I'm too sad today to engage with this, but you're simply wrong about Arecibo "having done all the useful things it could do ages ago, and not finding anything new".

Here, for example, is Arecibo on the cover of Nature, in 2018: [1]. And you might want to look into NANOGrav [2]: you'll be hearing a lot more about it (I promise) in one or two years, depending on publication timelines.

[1] https://twitter.com/nature/status/951423495107481602 [2] http://nanograv.org/

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by SiempreViernes on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:24PM (#25155589)
Despite its large instantaneous sensitivity, Arecibo is not really suited for transient work. In the FRB example Arecibo has a factor 22 advantage in collective area and yet trails Parkes by a factor of 14 in number of discovered FRBs: weak evidence of a unique capability.

And it's too bad the NANOGrav risks getting its results delayed by the inability to extend observations on half its sources, but the loss of Arecibo will not doom the entire project: again not conclusive proof that Arecibo added a unique capability.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by galgalesh on Saturday November 21, 2020 @11:10AM (#25170428)
There is a sea of difference between your initial statement of "having done all the useful things it could do ages ago, and not finding anything new" and your new statement of wanting conclusive proof that Arecibo has "a unique capability".

The "proof" shows Arecibo was still very useful and finding new things and this disaster will significantly delay research. (As a side note; delays in research can easily mean the death of that research as funding is often time-bound)

Somewhere in this there is a larger story of useful projects not receiving enough funding because they aren't sexy enough.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by sleavey on Friday November 20, 2020 @02:43AM (#25158162)
What's your connection to NANOGrav?
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by jasonwatkinspdx on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:33PM (#25154659)
Interferometry can simulate the resolution of a dish corresponding to its baseline but not the sensitivity.

The VLA may simulate the resolution of a 36 km dish, but it has the sensitivity of a 130 meter one, considerably less than Arecibo's 305. You're ultimately limited by signal vs noise and can't make up for the receiving area that simply isn't there, no matter the width of the baseline.

This makes interferometers and stationary giant dishes different tools, suited to different types of observations. Arrays are not good at imaging extended diffuse sources.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by Gibbon1 on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:57PM (#25154258)
Am I wrong but I remember something that it's resolution sucks because it's not parabolic.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by lightlyused on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:47PM (#25154774)
May be true, but its real value was has a radar.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by bronson on Thursday November 19, 2020 @07:22PM (#25156054)
The transmission capability is part of the reason Arecibo would be so difficult to fix. The platform is almost 900 tons.

China's FAST telescope was designed without transmit, mostly to save on suspended weight. Its focus cabin is only 30 tons.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by antognini on Thursday November 19, 2020 @01:03PM (#25152283)
It's been a little while since I dabbled in radio astronomy, but arrays like the VLA use interferometry to produce high resolution images. However, the high resolution is only along the directions between pairs of telescopes. Since you don't have telescopes in all directions, there are some directions with low resolution and others with high resolution. (In the technical parlance they talk about "UV-coverage" and filling the UV plane".) This produces patterns in the Fourier domain that look like this: http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~vlbacald/idx/snap_uv.gif. [1]

As the object moves in the sky, these dots move around and sort of "fill out" the image in Fourier space, so you get coverage that could look like this: http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~vlbacald/idx/lowd_uv.gif but it's still not 100% full.

The advantage of a telescope that is a single large dish like Arecibo is that this plane is completely filled. The resolution is more or less the same in all directions. The main disadvantage, of course, is that it is embedded in the ground and can only look at what is directly overhead. (They can maneuver the secondary dish to look at things a little bit away from directly overhead, but I seem to remember it only being a few degrees.)

[1]: See this page for those images and more details: http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~vlbacald/read.shtml

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by mumblemumble on Thursday November 19, 2020 @01:33PM (#25152695)
Could this characteristic be mitigated by arranging the telescopes in a random pattern rather than using simple, regular pattern like the VLA follows? That seems like it might be what's going on with the UV coverage diagrams being demonstrated at the bottom of page 3 in this paper about the ATA: https://www.seti.org/sites/default/files/ATA-memo-series/mem...
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by petschge on Thursday November 19, 2020 @01:36PM (#25152735)
You can improve UV coverage a bit but removing redundant duplicate baselines. Which is what pseudo-random patterns do. And these are used e.g. by Lofar. But the problem of lacking very small baselines to fill in very large scales on the sky remains. Interferometer are simply not very good for imaging extended objects. And of course the other thing is that you might have less reflective area in total and thus lower sensitivity for dim things.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by watersb on Thursday November 19, 2020 @11:02PM (#25157195)
It isn't a random pattern, but yes.

A logarithmic expansion of baseline distances seems to be the first thing you want in a sparse array. Ideally you want to be able to look in all directions with about the same amount of sensitivity and angular resolution. But the UV coverage of even an asymmetrical, relatively sparse array like the VLBA is surprisingly good, because as the Earth rotates, the antennas describe sweeping arcs on the sky.

The regular UV coverage of the VLA is great, though, for sensitivity at short duration observations.

But Arecibo was great for pulsar work. :-(

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by asgekar on Friday November 20, 2020 @01:38AM (#25157844)
Hi,

A radio astronomer here, and writing opinion for all that's worth.

I visited Arecibo once and stayed for a short project for 3 months. It was awesome, and they have a fabulous small astronomy team doing some really interesting science.

My mentor and long-term collaborator has used this telescope since the 70s, and she will be devastated. This dish has produced so many unexpected discoveries, solid science of highest calibre, and has stayed at the edge of science over 50+ years. It's sad to see such a sudden end.

There are three variants of radio-telescope design:

1. monolith dish (Arecibo or Green Bank) 2. Network of dishes (Very Large Array, or VLA, in New Mexico) 3. Network of individual dipoles (LOFAR in the Netherlands)

One needs to combine all three in some ways to target different classes of astronomical problems. For example, if you want to understand the source structure, separate its left limb from the right, then you need smaller dishes separated by a large distance (like Very Large Array -- VLA). If you are looking at low frequencies of radio light, then you need dipole arrays like LOFAR. On the other hand if you are looking for giant burst of short-term energy, you are collecting light from a distant object. The more you collect, the better it is. So, single dish (or many dishes combined) works very well. Large single dish (Arecibo like) telescopes are also critical to characterize arrays like VLA or LOFAR. So, they are very useful still.

Arecibo's success gave rise to improved design of a single mammoth dish telescopes in China (FAST). So, the design stays relevant and of importance. A new telescope called Square Kilometer Array (of size one square kilometer in effective area) would in principle replace a mammoth dish like Arecibo and tackle very diverse set of problems.

However, Arecibo is like an old Volvo car that kept on going strong. You never want to junk such a old beauty even if you have a swanky Tesla standing outside your door, would you?

Cheers!

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by sandworm101 on Friday November 20, 2020 @02:46AM (#25158177)
I would add that the one thing arecebo had over fast was a transmit function, a suspended cabin heavy enough to support a radar emitter. If you want to bounce radar off planets, fast wont work.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by asgekar on Saturday November 21, 2020 @12:58AM (#25168094)
Correct! Bird lovers would hate to see those birds die, but the LiDar was the facility which allowed high-res atmospheric studies. FAST, or most other telescopes, don't have this capacity, especially with any comparable size (which allows us to amplify the signal when focused).

Truly sad.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by libraryofbabel on Thursday November 19, 2020 @12:56PM (#25152203)
Not a radio astronomer (hoping one chimes in), but my understanding is that it’s about sensitivity (what’s the faintest signal it can detect) and resolution (distinguishing signals from points close together in the sky). The Very Large Array has “the resolution of an antenna 36 km (22 miles) across, with the equivalent sensitivity of a dish 130 meters (422 feet) in diameter”[0], i.e. amazing resolution but sensitivity much smaller than the current largest single dish, which is China’s FAST (500 meters in diameter).

[0] http://www.vla.nrao.edu/

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by kawfey on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:42AM (#25157633)
I used to work at the VLA as an RF engineering intern. I learned a lot. There is a good technical answer in these comments already, in regards to reception.

But AO was also a transmitter - it could pump out millions of watts to illuminate asteroids, the moon, and other orbiting objects for mono static and bistatic radar measurements. For example, images such as these [0] are created by receiving the reflection of energy emitted from transmitters like AO and Goldstone (I didn’t find an exact image of an AO-VLA measurement but they’re out there).

The AO and VLA had a unique relationship, in that one could precisely measure and image irregularities of any particular VLA dish panel down to a few tenths of a millimeter using bistatic radar of the moon. It’s somewhere in the eVLA library but my google fu is failing me (also google really sucks now).

They also had a few events for ham radio where AO lit up the moon and hams across the world could hear its reflection with basic equipment. [1]

[0] https://m-cacm.acm.org/careers/182810-high-def-radar-images-...

[1] https://youtu.be/SUr1z5XeOE0

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by leoc on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:31PM (#25155653)
On this website we can't fail to mention the connection to James Burke's Connections: Arecibo Observatory appears in Episode 3 from 43:50 https://youtu.be/eCp8h9RkaSw?list=PLf02uWXhaGRng_YzH-Ser_VEV... (skip to 47:00 https://youtu.be/eCp8h9RkaSw?list=PLf02uWXhaGRng_YzH-Ser_VEV... for discussion of the obsevatory), including in some nice aerial shots.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by fuoqi on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:16PM (#25153219)
>what kind of design is going to replace it?

FAST [0] can be considered an Arecibo replacement, see the comparison chapter on the wiki page. Though it is built in China, so some may say that it's not a replacement for the US and the West science community.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-hundred-meter_Aperture_Sp...

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by JshWright on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:22PM (#25153298)
FAST doesn't have some of the more interesting capabilities of Arecibo (most notably, the ability to perform radar astronomy).
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by beambot on Thursday November 19, 2020 @12:47PM (#25152095)
What comes next: Hopefully lunar-based optical & radio telescopes!
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by dheera on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:17PM (#25153858)
Random stupid questions from someone who is not a civil engineer:

(a) Why not replace the cables?

(b) What would they do if the cables on the Golden Gate bridge also corroded like this?

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by dreamcompiler on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:56PM (#25155342)
The article suggests that the act of replacing the cables could cause a catastrophic failure. My interpretation of this is that unless one could replace all the cables at exactly the same time (which is impossible), at least one more would fail, which would almost certainly cause the instrument pod to fall, destroying the dish and damaging buildings with flying cables.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by chordalkeyboard on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:43PM (#25154119)
judging by other comments, the observatory is obsolete. I believe they regularly paint the cables on the GG bridge in order to protect from corrosion.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by retostamm on Thursday November 19, 2020 @10:04PM (#25156974)
Not a radioastronomer, but it seems like it'd be nice to add a dish the back of (some of the) Starlink satellites. To make an even larger array.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by bitexploder on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:08PM (#25155463)
SETI at home was always fun back in the day. I always thought it was cool to see data from that telescope.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by ashtonkem on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:48AM (#25157659)
60 years in a tropical environment, no less. The humidity there cannot be kind to steel.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by samstave on Friday November 20, 2020 @01:10AM (#25157744)
Bezos should build an updated one there for his legacy!
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by moonbug on Thursday November 19, 2020 @01:05PM (#25152305)
> What comes next?

The Square Kilometre Array

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by petschge on Thursday November 19, 2020 @01:09PM (#25152359)
That the US (as of April 2020) does not take any part in.
[dead]
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by spenczar5 on Thursday November 19, 2020 @01:59PM (#25153046)
So many US astronomers will have trouble getting funding to use it, so it doesn’t replace Arecibo for that group, and a very large number of radio astronomers work at US institutions.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by ardy42 on Thursday November 19, 2020 @12:48PM (#25152105)
> But infrastructure ages, and 60 years isn't a bad run. What comes next? Clearly there's going to be a capabilities gap for a while, but now that it's 60 years after its original design, what kind of design is going to replace it? Do we even need giant monolith dishes anymore?

China already built one: https://phys.org/news/2016-07-china-world-largest-radio-tele....

Given that it's nonmilitary US government infrastructure, I doubt it will be replaced. After all, why spend money on a telescope when the government can cut the budget to lower taxes a little bit more?

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by Tuna-Fish on Thursday November 19, 2020 @12:58PM (#25152229)
It wasn't nonmilitary, it's military use has just come to an end.

In a small sidenote of an absolutely magnificent lecture by Steve Blank, the Secret History of Silicon Valley [0], he notes that the reason the radio telescopes were built in the 60's was because the Soviets were using air defense radars in their interiors that were hard to get information on using other methods that were available, but a few times a month a very sensitive radio telescope would get a very good view of their emissions as they bounced off the moon.

This was the cause of the massive radio astronomy boom during the 60's that built all the western radio telescope megaprojects that have produced so much great scientific data.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTC_RxWN_xo (radio telescope talk at 50m30s or so)

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by bullfightonmars on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:32PM (#25153409)
Well that is fascinating. I am reading The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell.

Part of the plot is that a radio astronomer at Arecibo discovers intermittent Alien radio signals originating from the Alpha Centari System. The protagonists can't figure out why the Alpha Centari's are transmitting such strong radio signals and why they are intermittent. It turns out that their planet doesn't have an ionosphere to reflect broadcast radio waves, so the inhabitants instead bounce radio off the moon to broadcast it back to the surface.

Arecibo only picked up the radio signals when they bounced off the moon at the right angle.

The origin of radio telescopes in the 60s must be the kernel for that bit of plot.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by lightlyused on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:53PM (#25154825)
The Sparrow is an excellent but distributing book.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by twic on Friday November 20, 2020 @04:32AM (#25158811)
Personally i couldn't stand it, because it felt like telling a straightforward story out of order was a trick to make that story seem more interesting than it really was. But i encourage everyone to read it and form their own opinion!
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by AniseAbyss on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:26PM (#25153936)
Basically everything that has to do with space is tied into the military. I'm sure the Chinese aren't going to the moon just for science.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by jonathankoren on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:06PM (#25154354)
Same reason the Americans and the Soviets did: national pride.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by tk75x on Friday November 20, 2020 @08:19AM (#25160164)
I'd say it's more "feelings of national inadequacy"
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by bitcurious on Friday November 20, 2020 @10:10AM (#25161151)
This was a super cool talk, thanks for sharing.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by aardvarkr on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:36PM (#25153459)
Great video, thanks for sharing!
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by xyzzyz on Thursday November 19, 2020 @01:18PM (#25152494)
> After all, why spend money on a telescope when the government can cut the budget to lower taxes a little bit more?

The NSF budget had been steadily growing in real terms, and is now over 3 times larger than in early 80s (8 times in nominal terms). If Arecibo has not been getting enough money to maintain it, and if there is no plan for new telescope in its budget, it’s not because of “budget cuts”, but rather because of spending decisions.

I do believe that we are getting less than we used to for the spend, but it’s clear that it’s not budget cuts that are responsible: rather, it’s the productivity of science is falling, and so is efficiency of the government, despite growing expenditures.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by 1MoreThing on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:59PM (#25153685)
Is it productivity, or is the work to mine new "knowledge coins" just harder now that we've done some of the easier work?
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by xyzzyz on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:06PM (#25154351)
By falling productivity, I simply mean that the same amount of funding results in fewer, less valuable and less useful results. Whether it’s caused by research itself becoming progressively more difficult, or some kind of fundamental dysfunction within science, I cannot accurately determine: I think it’s both at least to some degree. I think it’s reasonable to expect that keeping pace of results requires growth in spending, in general.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by chordalkeyboard on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:41PM (#25154097)
That is an excellent question that also strikes to the heart of how we measure "productivity."
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by javert on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:22PM (#25153295)
The government does not cut the budget. It is ever-growing.

Republicans lower taxes sometimes.

They re-allocate budget from one thing to another.

They don't cut the budget.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by Florin_Andrei on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:34PM (#25153427)
It's almost as if this is correlated with the population increase. Almost.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by javert on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:56PM (#25153663)
Except growth of the budget outstrips growth of the population, enormously.

Please cut out the sarcasm. Let's be nice to one another. (And if you didn't mean it to be sarcasm, never mind.)

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by Aeolun on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:39PM (#25154077)
It seems like we should be able to build these things in space.
Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by bronson on Thursday November 19, 2020 @07:56PM (#25156281)
We can. They would be vastly more expensive than the telescopes we're building on earth, and uneconomical to fix or upgrade.

One day we'll have synthetic aperture radiotelescope swarms in space. For now, it's a better use of money to improve our earth-based systems first.

Re:Arecibo telescope, on the brink of collapse, will be dism... by adamc on Thursday November 19, 2020 @12:53PM (#25152160)
Makes me sad.