News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by 1980phipsi on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:11PM (#24933398)
I would withhold any opinion that it is a "garbage story" until actually reading it...
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ivalm on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:18PM (#24933506)
It is about emails which have no headers, that are impossible to verify, that were “known to fbi” for a long time but didn’t produce any action (because likely fake), and that are specifically being pushed to change outcome of election despite, again, no real evidence of their veracity.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by TearsInTheRain on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:06PM (#24934283)
The emails have literally been verified by people on the emails and further their authenticity has never been denied by the Biden campaign. To claim that they are fake or disinformation at this point is either an act of extreme ignorance or duplicitous intent.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by fiblye on Thursday October 29, 2020 @06:28PM (#24936867)
A few elections back, there was a the “swift boat” controversy with John Kerry. Out of nowhere a bunch of people who worked with Kerry claimed his military experience was fraudulent in some way and the media ate it up, being one of the major factors that costed him the election.

Later on, and with more digging, people who were near him at the time confirmed that the controversy was all a sham. The people who previously claimed Kerry lied all suddenly claimed they misremembered, or gently admitted that they lied. There were just enough bits and pieces of facts to build a story, and BS was used to glue it all together.

I think people are seeing a repeat of that. Some things may be true, but a lot of overly convenient information is coming out to bind it together that’s hard to absolutely verify and will likely collapse under scrutiny.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by Wistar on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:53PM (#24934914)
No denial other than Joe Biden saying, "I have not taken a penny from any foreign source ever in my life," during the 3rd Presidential debate.

It's not Biden's to deny, it's Giuliani's to prove.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ganoushoreilly on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:01PM (#24935018)
To be fair, the implication in the emails isn't that he took money directly, but that his son held it for him. So the answer given above doesn't actually answer the question on enrichment of office.

It's not only Biden's to deny, it's His brothers, His Sons, and the others named. Further, if the information wasn't true or not believe to be true, why is it being blacklisted / treated as it's true? Why was distribution banned?

That's the questions being asked that are being shut down.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by Wistar on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:07PM (#24935097)
Generally, unverifiable information is not given much airplay. Not even Fox News or the WSJ would touch this one.

Making an outrageous accusation and then demanding that the accused defend themselves against it is an old Glenn Beck technique. Sort of like the question, "Are you still beating your wife?"

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by blhack on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:26PM (#24935326)
>Not even Fox News or the WSJ would touch this one.

Fox New's most popular show, and as far as I know the most popular cable news show there is, dedicated their entire hour to an interview with one of the people involved in this story, and has been covering the story extensively for the last week. What you are saying here is absolutely wrong.

And I mean, just a quick google search also shows that WSJ was writing stories about this a couple of weeks ago: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-hunter-biden-business-11602...

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by dragonwriter on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:13PM (#24935974)
> Fox New's most popular show, and as far as I know the most popular cable news show there is

Carlson's show doesn't even pretend to be a news show, in the sense of something that communicates what is even purportedly actual facts about the subjects it discusses, it is a vehicle for presenting hyperbole and non-literal commentary which is recognized as such by any reasonable viewer.

That's not just me, that's Fox News's own successful argument defending the show against defamation claims.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by Seam0nkey on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:48PM (#24935625)
To clarify the WSJ opinion section wrote articles including the one you linked that treat the allegations credibly. The newsroom wasn't as generous: https://variety.com/2020/politics/news/wall-street-journal-h...
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ufo on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:05PM (#24935885)
I think what they were talking about is that before Rudy Giuliani approached the NY Post he tried to get Fox News to publish the story but they refused it.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by Wistar on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:49PM (#24935641)
I should have been clearer. The news departments of those two Murdoch entities would not touch the story. Anything goes in the oped department.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:36PM (#24935468)
Responding to sibling comment.

Fox News’s most popular show is Tucker Carlson’s.

Note that Fox lawyers recently argued in court that Carlson has no obligation to tell the truth.

Fox News Argues Viewers Don't Assume Tucker Carlson Reports Facts

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/fox-news-defends-t...

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by sandwichest on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:48PM (#24935627)
The New York Post is a 200 year old publication started by Alexander Hamilton, it's not some fringe media source.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by pwned1 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:26PM (#24933664)
One could simply ask the people in the email if they are real. "Impossible to verify" is just lazy excuse-making.

This is basic journalism.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by jasonwatkinspdx on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:25PM (#24934537)
That's not how basic fact checking works. You don't just single source a story on the basis of that sources "trust me."
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by remarkEon on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:36PM (#24934670)
That's literally been the last 4 years of journalism surrounding this administration. Not only that, but the sources almost never are actually named.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by rat87 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:17PM (#24935228)
It hasn't but people like to pretend it has

Good journalists tend to not rely on on one anonymous source, they check with other sources and available evidence. The thing is this white house is extremely dishonest and corrupt and leaks like a seive hence a lot of anonymous sources

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ivalm on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:31PM (#24933750)
So there is one shady person who says he is real but who can’t prove anything and other people in the emails deny them. Of course if the emails are fake then the forgers would include a confederate as one of the people in the chain.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by nwienert on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:41PM (#24933924)
Is the shady person you’re referring to Tony Bobulinski?

If so, he is the documented primary business partner in the suspected deals who has provided verified emails, he’s a US citizen with a history of military service who put his real name on the line.

It doesn’t get less shady than that. Unless you’re referring to someone else.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by rebelos on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:28PM (#24936145)
This is among the most naive comments in this thread. You clearly know very little about the about the history of military personnel, their credibility, and their political affiliations. You should look into Seal Team Six as an example. Some of them have turned out to be rabid crackpots.

Being associated with the military confers absolutely zero marginal credibility over any other citizen. If anything, it's the opposite since there's a known conservative bias in military and law enforcement - dovish liberalism threatens their values and their power.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by JeremyHoward on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:56PM (#24934153)
> and other people in the emails deny them.

No they haven't. Neither Hunter Biden, Jim Biden, James Gilliar or Rob Walker, have denied that the emails and text messages sent to Tony Bobulinski are real.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:45PM (#24933990)
Bobulinski has audio recording talking to one of Biden family partners saying "if you go public with this story, you will bury us all".
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by JeremyHoward on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:04PM (#24934251)
Here's an audio source[1] for the people downvoting this.

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxE2nlDjYt8

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by DyslexicAtheist on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:47PM (#24934815)
"evidence" presented by Tucker Carlosn on Fox. you've already lost me there.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by nailer on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:24PM (#24935302)
That's not how truth works. If something is not correct, state why it is not correct. You may not like Fox or The Guardian or the NYT or Daily Wire or Vox but that doesn't affect whether their content is true.
[dead]
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by nailer on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:01PM (#24935830)
Also European, but again: that's not how truth works.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by zbyte64 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:22PM (#24936077)
Ahh yes, Tucker Carlson "I have the evidence but it was lost in the mail" totally wouldn't allow another to present a one-sided account without challenge and would certainly present evidence in context.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by googthrowaway42 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @06:10PM (#24936704)
Tucker Carlson has said they made copies anyway.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by scottlocklin on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:53PM (#24936524)
FWIIW it appears that UPS located the mail.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by brendoelfrendo on Thursday October 29, 2020 @07:22PM (#24937288)
I'm not under any obligation to wait for the broken clock to be right twice a day when there are plenty of other, perfectly good clocks. Tucker Carlson's journalistic integrity and reputation absolutely play a role in my judgement of the information he reports.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by jeegsy on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:47PM (#24934820)
You are wasting your time. People have arrived at the conclusion and are just trying to reverse engineer a "rational" reason for the conclusion. I mean it shouldn't be that hard to convince ppl what in Biden's long career and the millions resulting from it aren't tied up in some corrupt or at the very least shady activity.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:01PM (#24935007)
True. But it still needs to be said.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:34PM (#24933806)
They should be treated with caution and skepticism, but you seem to be using motivated reasoning without an impartial look of the actual probabilities. There's no hard proof they're real and no hard proof they're doctored. This requires a rigorous analysis, not dismissal.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by drewrv on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:01PM (#24935010)
> There's no hard proof they're real

Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:10PM (#24935132)
"Hard proof" is different from "evidence". In my opinion, there is some evidence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24934971

Of course it's not proof, but there's currently some evidence indicating it's real, and currently no evidence indicating it's doctored. Given the circumstances, it'd be extremely irresponsible for any media outlet to assume they're definitely true, but it's almost as irresponsible to assume they can't possibly be true and to not even raise the possibility they could be real.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ivalm on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:38PM (#24933854)
“Facts” conveniently dropped right before election whose veracity cannot be proven and which were clearly placed to affect the election outcome should be treated as fake and not promulgated in public discourse. Otherwise it encourages release of outrageous lies right before election and degrades the whole process.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:47PM (#24934018)
Will you change your stance on this, in a general sense, if it's all later confirmed to be real? And isn't it true that someone wishing to affect an election, and in possession of real information, would take the exact same action? You can't judge truth solely based on motive. That motive and action is consistent with the carefully timed release of either fake or real information.

The same was probably true of the person who leaked Trump's tax returns before the election. Of course they were initially treated with caution, but the media worked to confirm their veracity. Here they won't even ask the question.

I don't think the emails contain anything very damaging to Biden, as far as I can tell. I think the cover-up, lack of care about truth, and blind zealotry is way worse than anything in the emails. I do happen to think the emails are > 50% likely real, but the absolute refusal to consider them impartially is the actual problem, not the emails. It just shows neither pro-Trump nor anti-Trump give a single shit about truth. They just care about winning. Ideology trumps epistemology.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by tzs on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:07PM (#24934288)
> I don't think the emails contain anything very damaging to Biden, as far as I can tell.

This is the weirdest part about Republican attacks on Biden's ethics or integrity. All that I have seen have been accusing Biden or his family of things that Trump and his family do much more often than the Biden's are alleged to have done them.

In a rational world, that kind of attack would totally backfire.

But it's pretty clear people aren't rational. I've had people tell me that Trump must be trustworthy because he's a billionaire, and had the same people tell me that Gates, Soros, Buffett, and Bezos cannot be trusted because they are billionaires. Huh!?

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by dragonwriter on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:39PM (#24934704)
> All that I have seen have been accusing Biden or his family of things that Trump and his family do much more often than the Biden's are alleged to have done them.

Attack your enemy (especially falsely!) for the things you are guilty of so the people who are outside of the bubble that uncritically listens to propaganda (yours or your opponents) have been primed to dismiss that line of attack as just the kind of thing that propagandists invent about their enemies isn't a novel technique.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by jungletime on Friday October 30, 2020 @01:58AM (#24939582)
Trump went into politics a rich man. Biden become rich while being in Politics.

The difference in the accusations is something like this: "Biden monetized the vice presidency, for personal gain. He set up a money laundering operation, that funnelled money from foreign entities back to his family, through deals his crack head son was making."

His son was making 50k/month from a power energy company in Ukraine, that he had no prior experience in.

This is a lot different than hiring your own kids to work for you in your own administration, as Trump did.

Lots of people here are still holding on to "emails" being fake. Maybe you have heard the term, "A lie is 3 questions deep". The problem with the emails are fake theory, is that that emails have these snippets of personal information, that have been collaborated, along with very incriminating selfie photos of Hunter doing crack and prostitutes in hotel rooms. Both would be incredibly difficult to fake because they are so mundane, and intimate, as no one would have the imagination to fake them.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by tzs on Friday October 30, 2020 @11:12AM (#24943056)
> Trump went into politics a rich man. Biden become rich while being in Politics.

Biden wasn't very wealthy for most of his political career, which was as a Senator from 1973 to 2009, nor when he was VP. His net worth was under half a million when his VP term ended.

His current wealth of around $10-20 million or so came after he was no longer in office, mostly from a multi-book deal with Flatiron Books for both he and his wife ($8 million), speaking fees (basic fee $100k, but sometimes as low as $8k and as high as $190k), and $540k from his professorship with the University of Pennsylvania's Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement.

There's a chart of Biden and his wife's total earnings from 1998-2019 in this Forbes article [1].

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/michelatindera/2020/10/22/how-t...

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:11PM (#24934360)
I fully agree with you. That's why I think the cover-up is way, way worse than the actual original thing. It was a nothingburger, and now the media's unintentionally turned it into one of the biggest controversies of the year, by refusing to treat it in a reasonable and balanced way. It's the epitome of the Streisand effect.

This is why I keep posting about this. It's all just unwittingly helping Trump, all because they somehow think being journalists is the thing that'd actually help him or will cause accusations of helping him if he wins.

There's a middleground here. Of course the media having a front page headline about the emails every day would be irresponsible. But refusing to talk about it or look at it inquisitively, at all, ever, is just as irresponsible. As is Twitter censoring links to it.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by zzleeper on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:50PM (#24934851)
> the media's unintentionally turned it into one if the biggest controversies of the year

Maybe in the Republican bubble. Outside of it, no one really cares and sees it as a weird and poorly executed complot

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:08PM (#24935104)
I think you're very wrong. I'm the opposite of a Republican, and I think this scandal (the media's and Twitter's behavior, not the emails) is big. Matt Taibbi, a very definitely not-Republican journalist, agrees: https://taibbi.substack.com/p/with-the-hunter-biden-expose-s...

I think the main reason it's not a big controversy elsewhere is due to exactly what you mention - both bubbles absolutely reject anything negative about their side and absolutely accept anything negative about the opposing side. So of course one bubble won't care, or even be aware of what's going on.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by rat87 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:23PM (#24935287)
Taibbi like Greenwald has gone gaga against the establishment/evidence of Trump's collusion with Russia.

I don't think many people care what he has to say

More relevant is https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/28/trump-conspiracy-th...

Basically a bunch of Republican operatives admitting that virtually no one is buying the BS and that's it's not a useful line of attack

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:27PM (#24935334)
There wasn't any evidence of Trump colluding with Russia, though, as explained in Mueller's report. Greenwald has in the past gone so far as to even doubt interference, but he seems to have changed his stance and on JRE the other day he did say they interfered. Also, as you can tell from my post history, I strongly dislike Trump and everything he stands for, to be absolutely clear. I just want to accuse him of the thousands of things he's actually guilty of and not the things he's not guilty of.

If you read Taibbi's article, he's not at all claiming that the emails are damaging to Biden. The headline is "With the Hunter Biden Expose, Suppression is a Bigger Scandal Than The Actual Story".

Like in my posts, he's talking about the media's and Twitter's behavior in censoring the story - not the emails themselves. Everything he says is perfectly consistent with what's said in the Politico article you linked.

Taibbi is one of the most reputable, high-integrity, rational, and truth-seeking journalists working today, in my opinion. Reality often sits between a gray area of poles.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by nailer on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:28PM (#24935362)
Russiagate has been investigated with insufficient evidence to charge anyone in the Trump campaign. You can easily verify this for yourself. Please stop promoting conspiracy theories.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by teclordphrack2 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:34PM (#24935424)
Do you think Obama was told that Hilary was going to claim russia was helping trump?
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ivalm on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:57PM (#24934163)
I want to discourage anyone trying to “time dropping facts”, real or not. If you have real evidence then publish it when you get it. I disliked the NYT Trump taxes expose timing as well, although at least they put a bigger lead time to election.

The problem with these timed attacks is that they fundamentally encourage lying to affect elections.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:03PM (#24934249)
I don't agree that they encourage lying. "October Surprises" have been a thing for a very long time. It's just politics; the whole point of politics is to try to get your person to win and the other person to lose.

I think the NYT with the tax returns and the NY Post with the emails both acted properly, personally. (Though I strongly distrust both of them in general. NY Post much more so, but NYT gets worse and worse by the month, in my eyes.)

It's also unclear if either of them hoarded anything; they both may have published their pieces as quickly as they could, given the circumstances and when they received the information. I might be missing some evidence of hoarding; apologies if so.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by kolanos on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:01PM (#24935009)
The FBI, according to reports, received this laptop at the same time Trump was being impeached for asking Ukraine to investigate the matter. It appears the FBI sat on this evidence for 9 months.

> Meanwhile, additional documents obtained by Fox News include FBI paperwork that details the bureau’s interactions with John Paul Mac Isaac, the owner of “The Mac Shop” who reported the laptop’s contents to authorities, as first reported by the New York Post. > Isaac received a subpoena to testify before U.S. District Court in Delaware on Dec. 9, 2019, the documents show. One page shows what appears to be serial numbers for a laptop and hard drive taken into possession.

[0]: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fbi-purported-hunter-biden-...

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by rat87 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:19PM (#24935247)
Trump probably illegally cheated on his taxes what's wrong with Nytimes reporting that

Oh you meant the more recent taxes expose.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:51PM (#24934078)
Biden could have addressed this months ago. the fact that he hasn't is very telling. Before he got the nomination, major publications were running stories about it, like Politico and Bloomberg, etc.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:57PM (#24934170)
Absolutely, and there're several other indicators as well. I think it's still unclear if all of it's real, and the acquisition story seems sketchy (and very unethical if true), but it seems more likely than not to be legit.

I think staying silent about it is absolutely the smartest move on Joe's part. Trying to defend the contents will only draw more attention to them. It's the media's refusal to be actual journalists that's the dumb thing.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:34PM (#24934641)
The fact that he's not addressing this properly is the scandalous part. Don't we deserve answers. Even if he's elected, this is not going away and will only hobble his administration. He needs to clear it up and get it out of the way. There's a troubling trend among democrat nominees to suppress. Like him or hate him, you have to admit Trump holds press conferences and answers questions.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:42PM (#24934738)
Eh, any politician would probably do the same.

I strongly disagree about Trump. That's basically been Trump's exact MO since forever; any real story concerning him just gets instantly dismissed. "It's locker room talk", "it's fake news", etc. Trump and his White House have held far fewer press conferences than past presidents. And at his press conferences, he refuses many questions and dismisses others with either non-answers or just his typical bullshit salesman-speak.

I do think this is probably the "Trumpiest" Biden has acted so far, but I think I'd probably do the same thing if I were in his position, honestly. At least until the election is over. It's politics. He doesn't want to throw too much gasoline on the fire. It's just the media's and Twitter's behavior that I just mind-boggling and gross, and the irrational way so much of the left is treating it.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:53PM (#24935698)
My point is that we can survive a Biden or Trump. But once you start suppressing points of view, in the end, the election outcome won't matter. And if they think they are doing it "just this once" to save the country, they will do it again, as soon as its convenient for them. These are not the signs of a healthy free press.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by hackinthebochs on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:04PM (#24935057)
No. Responding to smears gives them more attention than they would otherwise get ruminating in the bowels of the internet. Those who are calling for Biden to deny them really want him to legitimize the content by addressing them.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ivalm on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:01PM (#24934213)
What do you mean he knew about it months ago? The point is that this is all just a fabrication, there is no story to address. That’s why they are pushing it now and not months ago.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:07PM (#24934286)
I'd be willing to take a bet with you that they're not a fabrication, if you want.

If they were a fabrication, the smartest thing to do would be a vehement pronouncement that it's all doctored, fake bullshit. It'd make sense to do that once and then never talk about it again and refuse questions, but the fact that there's not a single denial is telling. It's definitely not proof, but it's a sign.

Also, at least one email thread was corroborated by someone else on the thread as being real. That doesn't prove the rest of the emails are real, but it increases the likelihood.

Again, I don't even think there's anything damaging in there. But the absolute kneejerk insistence that they're fabricated, and that even trying to be impartial about it is giving into propaganda, by so many people, is pretty bizarre to me. There's a reasonable, rational, balanced middle ground here that very few people (besides some actual journalists like Matt Taibbi, Ross Douthat, and perhaps Glenn Greenwald - pending exactly what he says in this forthcoming article) seem to be taking.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by hackinthebochs on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:06PM (#24935080)
>If they were a fabrication, the smartest thing to do would be a vehement pronouncement that it's all doctored, fake bullshit

This is false, and rather laughable. If he addresses them directly, then that gives legitimate news organizations license to report on his denial, including reporting on the accusations. By not denying them he puts the onus on those pushing the story to demonstrate its legitimacy first.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @06:26PM (#24936846)
I don't agree at all. Quoting another comment I made:

>For example, here's a screenshot of a few of the emails in question: https://i.imgur.com/XNQarwF.png

>Is this a smoking gun of corruption of any sort? Obviously not. But could it raise some questions, before an important election? It could. If someone had completely fabricated this email, in my opinion almost any rational person would, at least once, somewhere, say or write that it was absolutely completely fabricated.

>Additionally, someone on this exact email thread corroborates that the email thread is all real, and claims that "H" is Hunter Biden and "the big guy" is Joe Biden, which seems plausible given the email context.

The smartest move, if they're true, is to be silent. The smartest move, if even a single email is doctored, is to protest that it's fake.

There's already been tons of reporting in non-left-aligned media about the emails and the fact that his silence is suggestive of them being real. If he were to deny it, the very little bit of reporting that NYT etc. did about it, suggesting it's likely disinformation, likely from Russia, could be even more strong with its claims that it's total bullshit.

Combined with the corroboration of the person in that email thread, and the fact there isn't anything that interesting in the emails (why doctor something so boring? like with the DNC emails hacked and leaked by Russian intelligence), I'm happy to bet money with you that they'll be proven to be legitimate within a few months. I don't think it's proven at all, but I think it's more likely than not.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by hackinthebochs on Thursday October 29, 2020 @06:37PM (#24936937)
There was an article I saw recently quoting from a right-wing political operative about smears. The takeaway was that a smear has little value if it stays contained within right-wing echo chambers. The goal is to get the mainstream press to talk about it non-stop. That is the mark of a successful smear campaign (this is tangential to the information's accuracy).

The fact that the mainstream press hasn't talked about the controversy much outside of the context of twitter et al blocking its dissemination, or it being a suspected disinformation campaign is a win for Biden. Denying the content of the controversy suddenly allows the story to be reported as a he-said, she-said, giving the story a life of its own. This does a disservice to Biden because now the reporting can be neutral between the parties. The battle here is over swing voters, and a he-said/she-said controversy is exactly the kind of nebulous "concerns" the GOP hope to raise about Biden. It was the specter of something going on that defeated Hillary and they're hoping to repeat this with Biden. Not addressing the specifics of the controversy allows the story to stay where it belongs, as a right-wing media hail mary.

As a comparison, mainstream press didn't report on the Trump dossier until Buzzfeed's reporting of the dossier became the story. Once the story becomes reified, mainstream outlets can then report on the controversy. The winning move is to keep the story from becoming its own controversy. Not addressing it directly helps to accomplish this.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by uoaei on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:33PM (#24934634)
Observing similar cases throughout history, the lack of immediate denial and dismissal is a very strong signal that there is some truth to it.

Take for instance the Podesta emails as a recent example. No one denied that they were real, just denounced the means by which they were made public.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:44PM (#24934773)
Exactly. And the acquisition here also has a very sketchy story. It kind of sounds made up. If it's true, it's very unethical. If it's untrue, it very likely still was. But the method of acquisition doesn't say anything about the content itself.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:30PM (#24934601)
The drug use and pornography is not relevant and more of a distraction. But the indications he may have been paid off by the CCP is troubling, and would mean he's a compromised candidate. We've spent the last four years of dire warnings from the media about Russian information, only to see them ignore the vast influence of CCP money around the globe.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:35PM (#24934652)
I don't think the emails show clear signs of any improper behavior with respect to China. It's not necessarily unethical for his family to have had businesses or business relationships in other countries, and it's not necessarily evidence of any relationship with the CCP. The CCP technically controls all business, so it could be said that any business dealing with any part of China is dealing with the CCP, but I think that'd be unfair if there's not an actual, concrete governmental relationship.

And so far, there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence that Joe was profiting from or involved with any of the deals himself (though there are some accusations of this).

The leaks are worthy of fair assessment and research, but people definitely shouldn't jump to conclusions of corruption.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by lhnz on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:34PM (#24936220)

  > I don't think the emails show clear signs
  > of any improper behavior with respect to China.
Yeah, but there was this recent report (https://www.baldingsworld.com/2020/10/22/report-on-biden-act...) which does seem to show clear links to the Bidens having received CCP money.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:55PM (#24934935)
I don't know. Watch Tucker Carlson's Bobulinski interview. He's got nothing to gain from this and comes off very credible. He accounts messages from the Biden family, even Biden himself that are very troubling. Not to mention the "plausible deniability" line chortled by his brother Jim. It deserves an accounting from the candidate. The company they got money, the CFEC was controlled by the CCP.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by nneonneo on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:41PM (#24934732)
If Biden came out and said it was false, he’d (a) be giving this garbage more air time than it deserved, and (b) embolden people who think it’s a cover-up. There’s no reason to believe that making such a statement would actually improve things; rather, it would probably make things much worse.

You say there’s nothing damaging in there. If that’s the case then the Biden campaign has even less reason to respond.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:58PM (#24934971)
At this late stage, yeah, you'd probably be right. But when the story first broke - before a cover-up, before most of the air time - if someone completely forged some emails, it would be the reasonable thing to do.

There's probably nothing really damaging. But some things in it could still potentially be interpreted that way, to the point that if someone had completely fabricated the emails, I think it'd be worth coming out and saying "to be clear, these are blatantly made up, my son never sent this email/these emails" even just once. Even in just an off-hand comment in an interview.

For example, here's a screenshot of a few of the emails in question: https://i.imgur.com/XNQarwF.png

Is this a smoking gun of corruption of any sort? Obviously not. But could it raise some questions, before an important election? It could. If someone had completely fabricated this email, in my opinion almost any rational person would, at least once, somewhere, say or write that it was absolutely completely fabricated. Additionally, someone on this exact email thread corroborates that the email thread is all real, and claims that "H" is Hunter Biden and "the big guy" is Joe Biden, which seems plausible given the email context.

I think it definitely is a cover-up. Not because of some collusion between Biden and the media; I think it's all social forces and incentives.

Optically, the media doesn't want accusations of having helped Trump win if he wins.

At the object level, a large percentage of people in the media lean left and strongly dislike Trump and don't want to do anything that might help him win.

And, probably, some percentage may also be so biased that they really think there's no possible way the emails could be real.

In the last case it wouldn't be called a cover-up, but it's being awful at one's job. In all of the cases, it's not a cover-up in the sense of a nefarious conspiracy, but it's journalists not being journalists due to strong political bias.

I think if this were leaked emails about Trump, the right-leaning media would've done exactly the same thing and not reported on it, or only reported that "the left-wing media is spewing conspiracy theories again!", as the inverse of what's happening here. I think the lesson that's reinforced here for me is just that all media organizations of any kind once again can't be trusted when it comes to actually caring about truth and epistemology.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by teclordphrack2 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:32PM (#24935414)
"before a cover-up" Its been talked about and has as many holes in it as the other dozen attempted smears.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by meowface on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:35PM (#24935457)
It's not about the holes, it's about if it's newsworthy to even discuss, and in my opinion it is newsworthy to discuss. There's a difference between holes and bullshit. The emails are real; the extrapolations and Bobulinski's claims are what's unclear. Some of his claims are objectively true, and some may not be.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by DyslexicAtheist on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:50PM (#24934865)
> This requires a rigorous analysis, not dismissal.

a distraction so to speak. This is exactly why they're doing it.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:21PM (#24933574)
Those issues could be addressed in the article. In open debate. That's the way the first amendment works.

There are reasons to not think its purely garbage storage, as many have pointed out. Not to mention a business partner, and someone who was sentenced to jail who has released their gmail account to the public.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ceejayoz on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:41PM (#24933915)
> Those issues could be addressed in the article. In open debate.

We learned this doesn't work all that well with the Comey letter eleven days before the 2016 election. "We've reopened the Hillary investigation" turned into "oops, nothing new" a few days after the election.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by nradov on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:50PM (#24934855)
Comey's letter wasn't a lie. The timing was bad but it accurately represented what the FBI was doing at the time.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ceejayoz on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:02PM (#24935029)
I'm not saying the Comey letter was a lie; I'm saying media organizations made mistakes in how they covered it. If you prefer:

"A fact that's missing critical context can travel half way around the world while the full context is putting on its shoes."

The same fundamental concept is at play here.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by rat87 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:25PM (#24935309)
It was against FBI policy to declare that so close to an election

Supposedly Comey violated it because some FBI agents were already illegally leaking it to Guliani and he was sure Clinton would win anyway

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by mixmastamyk on Thursday October 29, 2020 @07:04PM (#24937146)
And then he was fired. :D
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:47PM (#24934024)
Biden could have addressed this story months ago. He knew about it. You'd think the democrats would have learned not to nominate a second clinton who refuses questions. They still think its easy to stomp on a story than address it.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Friday October 30, 2020 @12:20PM (#24943818)
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ivalm on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:53PM (#24934107)
What do you mean he knew about it months ago? The point is that this is all just a fabrication, there is no story to address.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ceejayoz on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:01PM (#24934218)
> Biden could have addressed this story months ago.

If the story is true. If it's a fabrication - as they allege, and given that Fox News passed on it (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-electio...) and the Post's reporter didn't want his byline on it (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/18/business/media/new-york-p...), seems reasonably likely - they didn't hear about it until last week.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by tzs on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:54PM (#24934118)
> Those issues could be addressed in the article. In open debate.

It's a non-tabloid newspaper. What I want and expect from such a publication is to only see stories for which the basic underlying facts have already been verified. There might still be disagreements over the implications of those facts and how to act on them, which I want and expect to see covered.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by thrill on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:30PM (#24933724)
The first amendment has nothing to do with activities outside Congress making laws.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by xref on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:07PM (#24934298)
You’ve gotten some downvotes so figure I’d paste the actual text of the first amendment here so people know exactly what you’re referring to:

> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:48PM (#24934043)
huh? it's an inalienable right of us all. It either applies to all of us or it is meaningless.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ghaff on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:09PM (#24934327)
You might want to actually read the first amendment:

Congress shall make no law [emphasis added] respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

(In various ways that aren't very relevant to the current discussion, this generally applies to states as well.)

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by throwaway2048 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:58PM (#24934180)
So if the intercept refuses to publish my story, they are infringing upon my first amendment rights?
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by benmmurphy on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:10PM (#24934334)
I would say the most likely reason the FBI did nothing because there was no crime.

What Hunter/Joe Biden are accused of doing is a very popular scam among politicians in most countries and unless you are dumb enough to explicitly put in writing a bribery scheme then there is very little legal risk.

The scam comes about because it is fundamentally unfair to limit the employment opportunities of a politician’s family or the politician themselves after they leave office. So what happen is that companies will put a politician’s family members into positions of employment where there is a large gap between the value they produce in that position and what their reenumeration is. Alternatively, after the politician leaves office they will be parachuted into one of these scam jobs.

In return for organising these scam positions the company gets some alternative value from the politician. There can be a whole range of value from impressing (helping to scam) third parties to actually getting favourable government action or policy changes.

I feel like this is a very common arrangement for politicians and this is part of the reason there is a lot of pressure by the media to not cover this.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by hailwren on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:55PM (#24935741)
This argument is specifically, and repeatedly, addressed by Greenwald in his article. [1]

> The Hunter Biden documents have at least as much verification as those other archives that were widely reported. There are sources in the email chains who have verified that the published emails are accurate. The archive contains private photos and videos of Hunter whose authenticity is not in doubt. A former business partner of Hunter has stated, unequivocally and on the record, that not only are the emails authentic but they describe events accurately, including proposed participation by the former Vice President in at least one deal Hunter and Jim Biden were pursuing in China. And, most importantly of all, neither Hunter Biden nor the Biden campaign has even suggested, let alone claimed, that a single email or text is fake.

1 - https://greenwald.substack.com/p/article-on-joe-and-hunter-b...

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by Ancapistani on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:39PM (#24933878)
While I haven't seen Greenwald's piece, there is a lot more to the "Hunter Biden leaks" than some screenshots of emails allegedly recovered from a laptop.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by nightowl_games on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:47PM (#24934012)
We need to have faith in the general public that if this story comes out, along with the set of doubts that you just mentioned, that the public will be able to interpret it accurately.

Keep in mind that _you_ are a member of the public.

Your statement is counter to fundamental thesis of democracy. We must believe in the intelligence of the public to make an educated decision.

Your statement is also counter to the fundamental thesis of capitalism. We must believe in the intelligence of the consumer to make an educated decision.

If you don't believe in the sanctity of the public to make educated decisions, than what do you suggest we do to restore the fallen pillars of our society? You no longer believe in the capability of the public to perform capitalism and democracy. Rather, you believe that some subset of society should wield the power to influence the lower masses. Like rats in a maze.

Now, that I have characterized this harsh dichotomy for you, you must face the question are you a rat in a cage or are you one of the puppet masters?

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by naiveprogrammer on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:41PM (#24933921)
You are nto following the story, cleary. Not only some texts have been verified, they have a former business partner going on record, verifying the messages along the way. What else do you want? People involved in the threads are claiming the messages to be true. What else do you want?

And, by the way, I could care less for the video and photographic content of that laptop, to me that content is irrelevant --actually, I feel sorry for Joe Biden and I can't imagine how hard it must be to have a son who is a drug addict and a man child. But shouldn't that also corroborate the validity of the laptop content? Why isn't the media all over it?

And, please, let's not pretend that several Trump stories came from anonymous sources with no audio or text evidence. And the mainstream media danced all over it. For instance, the (supposedly) anonymous senior administration who was part of the resistance. Not only did the NYT run stories on his unverified accounts (no audio/text/video to back it up), they also wrote a book with his accounts. And we just learned that this senior admin wasn't senior after all. How can you really read thsoe stories and not come way perplexed by the blatant bias? I understand why people hate Trump, but is it worth to abandon journalism standards? Where do we go from here?

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by Karunamon on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:13PM (#24935975)
At this point I'm forced to conclude that there is more evidence pointing towards the authenticity of this information than pointing away from it.

Consider:

- The FBI came out and said there's no evidence of foreign disinformation.

- As has the DOJ.

- As has the director of national intelligence.

- Hunter's lawyer contacting the shop owner to ask for the return of the hardware

- The FBI's grand jury subpoena for the laptop

- The Biden campaign's weak (those meetings weren't in our schedule), later walked back to non (they might have happened anyways), repudiation of authenticity

- Travel mentioned in the emails matches up with Secret Service travel records

- The absurd volume of pictures of Hunter Biden in compromising positions

The argument against authenticity, at this point, falls deeper and deeper into conspiracy theorist territory. At the very least, it fails Occam's razor. The best argument I know of against authenticity is the lack of release of any raw messages with headers, but even that is pretty low-impact in the face of FBI/DOJ/DNI confirmation.

I've collected what I found so far here, both arguments for and against, with sources where possible: https://www.kialo.com/are-the-hunter-biden-emails-as-release...

If the raw messages are later released in whole, and the DKIM is validated, that's the smoking gun. A number of media organizations are then going to have some very uncomfortable questions to answer. The same later applies to some of our three-letter agencies if they turn out to be bogus. That would mean our investigative and intelligence agencies are both tainted.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by Karunamon on Friday October 30, 2020 @09:53AM (#24942179)
As of this morning, a third party has verified the DKIM headers on at least one of the messages.

https://dailycaller.com/2020/10/29/cybersecurity-expert-auth...

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by dylan604 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:18PM (#24933505)
I read that "garbage story" was meant as the decision of the editors who would have just finished reading the story to decide if the story was worthy to run and not the poster's personal labeling of the story.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:18PM (#24933515)
You can't do that if its censored.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by anoonmoose on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:28PM (#24933688)
It hasn't been, though. Private citizens of a private company opted not to publish it in their paper, and that's not the same thing.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by juniper_strong on Thursday October 29, 2020 @06:02PM (#24936622)
Here's the Merriam-Webster definition of censored: "suppressed, altered, or deleted as objectionable : subjected to censorship".

Government censorship is a subset of censorship. Private citizens of a private company are perfectly capable of suppressing, altering, or deleting material they consider objectionable, which seems to have been what happened in this case.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by dx87 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:42PM (#24933944)
And he says that they're threatening litigation if he publishes it anywhere else because it could make them look bad.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by anoonmoose on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:46PM (#24934003)
Where did he say that? Towards the top of the linked substack, he says: "The censored article will be published on this page shortly."

Edit: I dunno if I agree that this counts.

"But Intercept editors in New York are demanding I not only accept their censorship of my article at The Intercept, but also refrain from publishing it with any other journalistic outlet, and are using thinly disguised lawyer-crafted threats to coerce me not to do so (proclaiming it would be “detrimental” to The Intercept if I published it elsewhere)."

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by RonanTheGrey on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:00PM (#24935803)
> are using thinly disguised lawyer-crafted threats

I don't think there's any other way to interpret that than "threatening litigation". You don't receive a message from a company's lawyers because they're having a friendly conversation about not intending to do anything.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by anoonmoose on Friday October 30, 2020 @08:22AM (#24941461)
Greenwald published his email exchange with his editor. He brought up his contractual right to publish elsewhere if he likes, in his first response to his editor. He started accusing them of censorship in the second email (which he sent after the first before he got a reply back). WHen they did respond, they said it would be "harmful and detrimental to The Intercept" if he published it elsewhere. Glenn can call that a "lawyer crafted threat", I see it as a true and accurate statement from his editor.

Guess what I'm saying is, he didn't receive a message from the company's lawyers that I've seen yet.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by skybrian on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:26PM (#24933655)
You also can't say for sure whether it's true or not if it's not censored. At best you can judge plausibility, but plausibility isn't truth.

Most evidence can be faked. The chain of custody for evidence is important, and that's not a property of the evidence, but of its history.

There's no substitute for trust in the person or organization reporting the news.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:31PM (#24933752)
They can be cross referenced with the information that's in the emails. Many have already done this. A business partner, Bobulinski, and a gmail account of one of his partners serving in prison. This is a moving story. The non-interest in even trying to verify it, as pointed out by Greenwald, is very concerning.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by mlthoughts2018 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @06:02PM (#24936618)
Now that his actual article has been published it is super clear Greenwald’s story is pretty garbage. He has no evidence of anything and even states so plainly. It is purely conjecture that Hunter Biden’s big mouth statements might be connected to impropriety, with utterly no proof.

Then it turns into a comically bad diatribe about bias in the press.

Greenwald over the past 4 years has become an insufferable troll. This article adds nothing new in any way, and given the wildly unjustified harm it could do to an impending election, it is beyond doubt that the Intercept editorial decision not to run this was the right decision.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by throwaway2048 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:20PM (#24933559)
The poster makes no claims that the story is garbage, only that the editor though so.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by nojito on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:18PM (#24933519)
If the entire editorial team and his peers rejected it, it seems pretty clear.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ping_pong on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:27PM (#24933682)
There was an almost mutiny from the NYT when they published Tom Cotton's article in their op-ed, which forced the editor to resign. They couldn't bear hearing from the other side, and this is just another example of the same mentality. This is exactly what Greenwald and Tabbiti have been reporting about, the fascist left censoring or wanting to censor the news to only those opinions that they want to hear.

EDIT: For the record, I'm "center-left". When I say fascist left, I mean the extreme left who believe that anyone who disagrees with them is the enemy. Unfortunately this belief is spreading more and more amongst the left, but I still believe there are a lot of moderate, even-headed left but the conversation is being dominated by the fascist left.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ghayes on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:41PM (#24933927)
The use of terms like "the fascist left" makes it harder to appreciate the merits of statements like this. Also, the phrase is a bit oxymoronic as fascism is, specifically, a conservative ideology.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by __blockcipher__ on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:00PM (#24934203)
Perhaps the term "the authoritarian left" or "the totalitarian left" would fit a bit better. I think in context their point is very clear though.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by abecedarius on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:11PM (#24935162)
For those on the left who're against free speech and such, I've started using "antiliberal left". I'm not even sure they'd object to the term. (Consider this a try at finding out.)
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:57PM (#24934166)
Nobody really knows what fascism is. It's more of an excuse to make up the rules as you go along to obtain a certain objective. Both left and right are susceptible to it. That's why we need transparency and a free and open press.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by CogentHedgehog on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:15PM (#24934410)
> Nobody really knows what fascism is. It's more of an excuse to make up the rules as you go along to obtain a certain objective. Both left and right are susceptible to it.

This really only serves to muddy the waters. There are a few clear and well-recognized definitions of fascism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#By_scho...

There may be some differences, but they very clearly describe the same set of core traits.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by Fellshard on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:33PM (#24934629)
A better phrasing of the parent post is that very few people use the term fascism based on its actual definition; it's a highly-parroted word whose colloquial meaning has been entirely diluted, yet still carries gargantuan negative weight.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by CogentHedgehog on Thursday October 29, 2020 @07:03PM (#24937142)
I will agree that people intentionally misuse the word "fascism."

For example, the people in this comment thread claiming that editors making editorial decisions are the "fascist left" are pretty clearly misusing the word.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by Fellshard on Thursday October 29, 2020 @07:43PM (#24937442)
I would tend to agree. It would be stronger to extract the individual behaviours in mind, and not use that word incorrectly.

That said, 'not fascistic' does not imply 'good'.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by CogentHedgehog on Thursday October 29, 2020 @09:13PM (#24938092)
Sure, there's TONS of things that are 'not fascistic' but are bad.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:25PM (#24934546)
My point was that its not a "left" or "right" phenomenon. The political extremes tend to resemble one another as they are willing to forego principles such as free speech in order to suppress political opponents. Everyone should be very weary of this. We can survive Trump, what we can't survive is a press that feels the need to censor content. If they get away with it, they will use it again and again.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by CogentHedgehog on Thursday October 29, 2020 @07:12PM (#24937212)
That's not true either though. Fascism is by definition a right-wing form of authoritarianism, because of how it uses class divides to build its political power.

The corresponding left-wing authoritarianism would be "leftist populism", "Stalinism", or some other term.

What you're describing is called Horseshoe Theory, and it's not well-supported by evidence. Right-wing and left-wing populism have a few things in common (authoritarianism primarily), but have much larger differences than similarities.

I will point out that attacks on a free press ARE a clear sign of authoritarian regimes. I would encourage you to take a look at the history of the German word "Lügenpresse" (literally "lying press"). Especially take note if you see similar things being said about the modern media -- and which groups are saying it.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by knaq on Friday October 30, 2020 @12:49AM (#24939283)
You say "by definition a right-wing form [...] it uses class divides to build its political power", but how does that match the right? The very first thing I associate with obtaining power via class divides is Karl Marx. There's also Mao, Lenin, Pol Pot, and anybody in modern USA politics who complains about the "1%ers" or "income inequality". I'm really really not seeing how that matches up as you claim it does. I think you need to accept the uncomfortable and obvious conclusion here.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by CogentHedgehog on Friday October 30, 2020 @09:01AM (#24941749)
I phrased that poorly. Fascism uses economic and class features that largely do not exist in a far-left society, such as a sizeable middle class and corporate power.

From Umberto Eco's definition of fascism: "'Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class', fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups."

From Gentile's definition: "corporative organization of the economy that suppresses trade union liberty, broadens the sphere of state intervention, and seeks to achieve, by principles of technocracy and solidarity, the collaboration of the 'productive sectors' under control of the regime, to achieve its goals of power, yet preserving private property and class divisions;"

I understand that it is appealing to try to dilute the meaning of "fascism" by applying it overly broadly until it loses its meaing. Whataboutism is also convenient way for the Right to distance themselves from the evils committed by the right-wing Nazis and other far-right fascist groups.

The better way for the Right to distance itself is by supporting moderate democratic norms rather than giving in to violent populist impulses. Power is one heck of a drug though.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by knaq on Friday October 30, 2020 @09:30PM (#24948380)
The world has gone 75 years without real fascism or Nazis, so the definitions shouldn't be changing, yet they have over the last 20 years. Older dictionaries and encyclopedias very clearly contradict the newer ones on the left-right measure of fascism and Nazis.

So, correcting for the projection:

"I understand that it is appealing to try to dilute the meaning of "fascism" by applying it overly broadly until it loses its meaing. Whataboutism is also convenient way for the Left to distance themselves from the evils committed by the left-wing Nazis and other far-left fascist groups."

The facts don't change just because some people want to fling a dehumanizing insult.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by spaetzleesser on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:51PM (#24935662)
“Fascism “ means basically “really bad” the same way “Hitler” means “really bad”. I really hate it that most groups have their favorite bad words, be it “racist”, “socialist”, “fascist” or “neocon” without having even a basic understanding of their meaning or history. They all just mean “so bad that it can’t be even discussed or questioned”.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ping_pong on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:11PM (#24934363)
Every single action taken by the fascist left mimic traditional fascism. They have taken the tactics from Mussolini and adapted well for their own purposes. Suppression of different ideas, censorship, etc. The only difference is that it's flown under the banner of the left, but their tactics are very much the same.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by spaetzleesser on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:53PM (#24935702)
This is not a uniquely fascist thing. Every dictatorship suppresses different ideas, censors etc.

Otherwise you could argue that giving speeches or writing pamphlets and books is a fascist thing.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by monocasa on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:52PM (#24936514)
Here's an actual, in depth definition of fascism from Umberto Eco's essay Ur-Fascism. The connections to the modern left are tangential at best.

    "The Cult of Tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by Tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.

    "The Rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.

    "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.

    "Disagreement Is Treason" – Fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.

    "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.

    "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.

    "Obsession with a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society (such as the German elite's 'fear' of the 1930s Jewish populace's businesses and well-doings; see also anti-Semitism). Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.

    Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.

    "Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.

    "Contempt for the Weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate Leader who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.

    "Everybody is Educated to Become a Hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."

    "Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality."

    "Selective Populism" – The People, conceived monolithically, have a Common Will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the Leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the Voice of the People."

    "Newspeak" – Fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by dragonwriter on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:16PM (#24934423)
> Every single action taken by the fascist left mimic traditional fascism. They have taken the tactics from Mussolini and adapted well for their own purposes.

There's no such as even fascist left, even in the kind of disputable way in which Leninist and non-Leninist Marxists will argue over whether Leninism is a genuinely Marxist, Communist, or leftist movement, or a form of right-wing state capitalism.

Fascism is an ideology, not a set of tactics. Yes, right and left wing groups (both moderate and extreme) often learn tactics from each other. No, that doesn't make the ideologies the same.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ping_pong on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:20PM (#24934478)
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by monocasa on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:55PM (#24936550)
That's a reference to National Bolsheviks, which haven't existed since the night of long knives.

"There should be a communist utopia...for aryans as they crush all other races under their boot" is not a movement with really any members anymore.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ping_pong on Thursday October 29, 2020 @08:24PM (#24937767)
Try reading the links for once. It has nothing to do with National Bolsheviks. The links talk about more modern forms of left-wing fascism.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by CogentHedgehog on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:01PM (#24934214)
One of Gentile's elements defining fascism is "a police apparatus that prevents, controls, and represses dissidence and opposition, including through the use of organized terror." Sending in the military against protesters would be literally a textbook example.

Cotton's OpEd was a prominent member of government advocating for fascist actions.

The irony here is palpable.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ping_pong on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:08PM (#24934320)
He specifically said rioters, not protesters. Read the actual op-ed.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by CogentHedgehog on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:24PM (#24934525)
I did, when it came out. Labeling them as rioters did not make the piece any less concerning.

Read up on the Reichstag fire and how it was used to justify suspension of civil rights. The parallels are striking.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by ping_pong on Thursday October 29, 2020 @03:30PM (#24934603)
You didn't read it properly, because he never said protesters. Changing "rioters" to "protesters" completely changes the meaning of what Cotton said. I don't agree with him, but I am vehemently against people twisting others' words to spread lies and misinformation. He said "rioters". Don't lie and say he said "protesters" because then you are implying he is trying to quash free speech with the military.

In this case, you are the one in the wrong. Spreading misinformation purposefully to trick people into agreeing with you is what is destroying this country right now and you are doing this.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by CogentHedgehog on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:20PM (#24935264)
> You didn't read it properly, because he never said protesters. Changing "rioters" to "protesters" completely changes the meaning of what Cotton said.

This was a calculated move to paint all the protesters as rioters and drum up support for treating them as such.

Even without reading into it, Cotton was advocating for bringing US military troops into US cities to put down the protests because some of them turned violent. That is NOT normal, and NOT something we should see in a healthy democracy.

I might add that once the police stopped attacking protesters violently, the protests calmed down pretty quickly.

> Spreading misinformation purposefully to trick people into agreeing with you is what is destroying this country right now and you are doing this.

Projection is such an ugly thing to see.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by nkurz on Thursday October 29, 2020 @05:30PM (#24936177)
> This was a calculated move to paint all the protesters as rioters

I don't think this is true. Quoting from his piece:

"Some elites have excused this orgy of violence in the spirit of radical chic, calling it an understandable response to the wrongful death of George Floyd. Those excuses are built on a revolting moral equivalence of rioters and looters to peaceful, law-abiding protesters. A majority who seek to protest peacefully shouldn’t be confused with bands of miscreants."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opinion/tom-cotton-protes...

He clearly says in plain words that the majority are law-abiding protestors. I suppose you could argue that the piece actually means something other than the plain words that it uses, and you could certainly argue that he's drawing the line between protestors and rioters in the wrong place, but at no point does the op-ed make the claim that all protestors are rioters.

Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by joshuamorton on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:05PM (#24935073)
In context, many had, and continue to, misconstrue protests as riots. As such, a call to send in the military against rioters cannot be differentiated from a call to send in the military against protestors, unless you can get cotton and the protestors to agree on what the differences between protest and riot are.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by CogentHedgehog on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:22PM (#24935278)
Yes, it was a calculated move to try to paint ALL the protests as riots and justify potentially deadly use of force.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by rat87 on Thursday October 29, 2020 @04:27PM (#24935343)
Not publishing an editorial calling for an authoritarian crackdown is facism now?
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by tomp on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:25PM (#24933638)
Vs someone with the history of journalistic integrity and clout as Greenwald, there's no doubt in my mind whom I'd trust more on their opinion (btw: it's not the New York editorial elite).
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by albroland on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:35PM (#24933808)
The same editorial team and peers that tried to get Lee Fang fired for having the audacity to interview actual residents in areas where rioting was happening?
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by whimsicalism on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:21PM (#24933571)
I will reserve judgement until reading the article. Greenwald has certainly had his share of garbage takes, but also can have a quite refreshingly honest perspective.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by starkd on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:33PM (#24933787)
Greenwald was the founder of the outfit. I would think weight would be given to senior editors judgment.
Re:My Resignation from the Intercept by jtbayly on Thursday October 29, 2020 @02:25PM (#24933643)
Yep. Just like the entire team of conference organizers decided that there was a code of conduct violation. No doubt about it. He's guilty. I don't need to evaluate any evidence to know that. It's obvious.