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Re:Next.js 10 by bamazizi on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @01:50PM (#24909945)
I understand this is a Vercel framework and probably a great distribution channel for new business and increasing overall revenue. But, I'm a bit disappointed the "next" version is more about Vercel's own internal business agenda. Promoted as amazing "DX" is not really true. It had a better DX compared to the other tools, that's why it grew so popular, but not seeing anything real DX related in version "10". Other tools are starting to do things a bit better.

Analytics, great idea, is a huge disappointment. It's just a Vercel thing and not NextJS, not to mention a "pro/enterprise" paid feature, not cheap either.

A few days ago I saw the YT videos of "future of Svelte" and that video was really about "DX" with no non-sense no BS that just focused on the real next evolution on web/app dev. That DX really resonated with me.

My opinion, I'm not sold on NextJS 10, the "commercial" move kind of turned me off and scares me of platform lock-in, but I'm getting more and more interested into Svelte (v4?) and I'm seriously looking to switch to it from NextJS.

Note: "DX" stands for "Developer eXperience", meaning how joyful, easy it is to get started with the tool and feeling productive.

Re:Next.js 10 by mindrun on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @02:40PM (#24910431)
Whenever the Next.js + Vercel combo gains a new feature, Vercel ensures that it's available in standalone Next.js too – even when deployed to other providers.

That's true for all the features mentioned in the Next.js 10 blog post: Image optimization, Internationalization, but also Analytics.

Since you mentioned the latter: Did you notice that we wrote a detailed documentation page about how to report those metrics to any service of your choice?

https://nextjs.org/docs/advanced-features/measuring-performa...

Sure, there's obviously a whole UI piece to this as well – but since you interact with Next.js programmatically and there's a quite sophisticated data storage that needs to back all of this as well, Vercel optionally provides you with a pre-built solution.

But again, to be clear: If you want to use Analytics + Next.js elsewhere, Next.js supports reporting them natively – even if not hosted on Vercel.

Re:Next.js 10 by citruspi on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:05PM (#24910658)
> Did you notice that we wrote a detailed documentation page about how to report those metrics to any service of your choice?

Perhaps you should link that on the Analytics[0] page instead of directing users to contact the sales team for more information on non-Vercel deployments.

[0] https://nextjs.org/analytics

Re:Next.js 10 by mindrun on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:25PM (#24910852)
Great suggestion! We'll add a link right after the conference.
Re:Next.js 10 by wdb on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @04:32PM (#24911546)
Yes, but that reporting was already part of 9.5?
Re:Next.js 10 by yawnxyz on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:07PM (#24910690)
I'm rewriting a bunch of my Vue components into Svelte, and turning my Nuxt (which were previously React/Next) projects into Sapper, and it's a crazy easy process. My Svelte codebase is tiny compared to my Vue codebase.

I'm slightly "worried" about Sapper not being at v1.0 yet but... it's been working great for my MVPs

Re:Next.js 10 by atom_arranger on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:54PM (#24911110)
Relatively recent news, Sapper is not getting a 1.0.0. Svelte is going in a different direction in the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSfdtmcZ4d0&t=3s

Re:Next.js 10 by svieira on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @04:52PM (#24911742)
TL;DW - parts of Sapper may be in a future version of Svelte, but looking to add support for mixed static and dynamic pages and improving development speed to change by using Snowpack.
Re:Next.js 10 by vosper on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @04:00PM (#24911175)
I'm surprised to hear this - more details would be appreciated.

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll come back this afternoon and TL;DR the 22 minute video linked here.

Re:Next.js 10 by Xevi on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:43PM (#24910998)
I'm pretty out of the loop when it comes to Svelte/Sapper. I've looked at it, but never used it. However I did recently spot that they're already working on a successor to Sapper called Svelte Kit. So maybe that's why Sapper isn't at 1.0, and maybe never will be.

https://github.com/sveltejs/sapper/issues/1429

Re:Next.js 10 by erokar on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @02:17PM (#24910197)
I feel the same way. We've switched from React to Svelte at work. Going back to React would be a step backwards for us, so much feels needlessly overengineered with awkward APIs. React was a great improvement on Angular, but luckily things are still moving forward.
Re:Next.js 10 by tekkk on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @05:06PM (#24911891)
Well, this sounds a bit typical JS dev talk. React isn't all that terrible, it's actually quite good and battle-proven. It has great libraries, many devs are familiar with it and if you know it well you can be pretty damn productive with it.

Not to say Svelte doesn't have great innovative features, but I myself don't still feel that tempted to jump into Svelte. What some of us don't like, is the infamous JS churn where libraries are changed every year because "this new one is better".

Re:Next.js 10 by erokar on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @05:22PM (#24912081)
Some of us are attracted to JS dev because of the rapid evolution and change. React is well-tested and mature, I'm simply stating that for me personally going back to it would be frustrating after developing in Svelte.
Re:Next.js 10 by earthboundkid on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @08:41PM (#24913714)
React is extremely bloated. I don’t think it can justify its weight on content pages. If all you need are some show hide buttons and a CSS animation, it’s way too heavy. That’s a pretty good reason to look at other tools.
Re:Next.js 10 by jholman on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @11:59PM (#24915020)
If all you need are some show hide buttons and a CSS animation, do the whole thing in four or five lines of vanilla JS in an inline script tag. You're right that React is the wrong tool for the job, but so is Svelte and so is everything else discussed in this thread.
Re:Next.js 10 by fasteo on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:08PM (#24910696)
Which UI component library, if any, do you use with Svelte ?
Re:Next.js 10 by gedy on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @06:14PM (#24912624)
Sveltestrap[0] but needs Bootstrap for the CSS styling (I personally like the separation but YMMV)

[0] https://sveltestrap.js.org/

Re:Next.js 10 by erokar on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:35PM (#24910938)
UI component libraries for Svelte are a little lacking in maturity in my experience. I would recommend including a CSS library such as Bootstrap or Materialize. Tailwind is also popular, but not my cup of tea.
Re:Next.js 10 by auggierose on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @04:49PM (#24911715)
So, React is backwards, but you are using Bootstrap instead? Lol. Webdevs at their best.
Re:Next.js 10 by subsection1h on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @05:23PM (#24912090)
There are good alternatives to React that are as actively developed. There don't seem to be good alternatives to Bootstrap that are nearly as actively developed (excluding CSS utility class libraries like Tailwind).

My team recently evaluated 30-40 CSS frameworks to use with a custom component library, and we were surprised when Bootstrap was the clear winner. Other CSS frameworks have gotten buzz over the years, and we assumed something new and shiny would come out on top, but when we evaluated all of them, we saw sporadic commits, many unresolved issues (e.g., see Bulma issue 3074), small bus factors, inadequate support for keyboard navigation, and other issues.

So using Bootstrap with a newer alternative to React is valid. (Though, we're using Bootstrap with Next.js.)

Re:Next.js 10 by erokar on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @05:27PM (#24912129)
By all means, stick to your React or Java backend or whatever it is you do if that's where you feel most comfortable. No need to feel so threatened by new alternatives.
Re:Next.js 10 by reactor on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @09:43AM (#24918640)
I've had great success with http://ibm.biz/carbon-svelte for one of my side projects.
Re:Next.js 10 by fasteo on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @03:39PM (#24923231)
Looks great. Thanks.
Re:Next.js 10 by bamazizi on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:22PM (#24910830)
Technically any static ui library can easily be turned into reactive components in any of the frameworks. I personally use & recommend Tailwind css, you still need to design/build your UI elements and components but Tailwind helps you speed it up.
Re:Next.js 10 by dfrsol on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:16PM (#24910765)
How are y'all testing your svelte apps/components? Jest+Testing Lib seems to have issues calculating code coverage and there are few quirks like having to do work arounds to test slots that prevent me from totally switching over.
Re:Next.js 10 by erokar on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:32PM (#24910918)
Our test coverage of the Svelte apps is meagre so far to be honest.
Re:Next.js 10 by rsyring on Friday October 30, 2020 @09:52AM (#24942170)
Their response to "How do I test Svelte apps?"

"We don't have a good answer for that yet, but it is a priority."

I was interested in Svelte until I read this. When they have a good answer, I'll be interested again.

https://svelte.dev/faq#how-do-i-test-svelte-apps

Re:Next.js 10 by Existenceblinks on Sunday November 08, 2020 @01:27AM (#25023583)
The solution to this, I believe, is making template a function: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25023551
Re:Next.js 10 by suyash on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @02:08PM (#24910122)
Good point it would have helped if the clearly mention what's in the open source vs what's paid service tied to Vercel. Alsi I'd like a point by point comparison with Google Analytics for their analytics offering, is that in open source?
Re:Next.js 10 by kylemh on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @04:40PM (#24911624)
Seems very disingenuous.

The only thing on the list that's related to Vercel is the analytics platform. Even that is clearly listed as something you can leverage via your own provider.

Re:Next.js 10 by Existenceblinks on Sunday November 08, 2020 @01:22AM (#25023551)
Svelte is the lead of virtualdom less `ui=f(data)` language/framework. It's the only one you can mutation DOM without its program being corrupted (though not sure if you try hard, it could be)

There is only 1 thing that would make me switch from Elm to Svelte is template as a function. Make it compose like functions! So that you can have as many as functions you want. With current Svelte, these functions are bunch of files .. unfortunately.

Re:Next.js 10 by nsonha on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @05:12PM (#24911965)
You are looking at it from the point of view of an app developer, not that nextjs can't do app but a lot of its users are e-commerce businesses
Re:Next.js 10 by neves on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @02:32PM (#24910348)
What is DX? New jargon?
Re:Next.js 10 by azemetre on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @04:37PM (#24911593)
If UX is user experience, the user flows of a product/application and how people generally feel about using/interacting with it.

The DX is the developer experience. It follows a similar idea. How do you feel about using git? What about Visual Studio Code versus neovim? How do you like using Elm? What don't you like about.

Think about all the libraries or frameworks you use. Some of them clearly offer a better experience than others, these are the types of things that affect the DX.

Take documentation for example, a piece of tech (whether it be an IDE, library, or CLT) with proper documentation full of examples, usage, and recipes is extremely nice. I would favor tech that has better documentation over others, documentation is just one part of the DX. Not the only part, but hopefully you can start to see what can increase or decrease the DX.

Re:Next.js 10 by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @07:01PM (#24913068)
> The DX is the developer experience. It follows a similar idea. How do you feel about using git?

To me, how I feel about using (working with) git is git's UX.

How I would feel working on git (were I to do so) would be git's DX.

Now, for a project that has git as part of its expected dev tooling, how I feel about using git in that particular context would be part of that particular project's DX.

Re:Next.js 10 by neves on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @05:39PM (#24912239)
Thanks for the explanation, but it is really unnecessary. Developers are the users for developer tools. UX fits perfectly nice.
Re:Next.js 10 by hombre_fatal on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @06:55PM (#24913016)
It's confusing or always needs further distinction if "UX" when discussing client-side application development is talking about developers. "DX" is useful.
Re:Next.js 10 by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @06:59PM (#24913054)
OTOH, when I hear about DX of a software product (especially an open source one), my intuitive understanding is that it is experience of developers working on the product, not of developers that happen to be users of the product (which, if they are the normal users of the product, would just be UX.)
Re:Next.js 10 by joshmanders on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @06:18PM (#24912667)
> but it is really unnecessary.

You may think that, but it's a standardized term already.

Re:Next.js 10 by kipple on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @02:35PM (#24910384)
It's hard to search for, but it appears to mean "Developer Experience" — https://medium.com/@koba04/performance-and-dx-in-frontend-48...
Re:Next.js 10 by nsonha on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @08:28PM (#24913637)
it's a full of crap metric due to the fact that the definition wildly varies among developers. While UX can be quantified by actual metrics (retention, number of steps, accessibility points), DX is nothing but a bunch of opinions.
Re:Next.js 10 by cfors on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @02:34PM (#24910363)
Presumably Developer Experience
Re:Next.js 10 by scns on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @02:39PM (#24910419)
Developer eXperience
Re:Next.js 10 by nikolay on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @07:34PM (#24925397)
I also am departing from Next.js as the future is now clear - upselling their commercial stuff.