This mixer was penalized for running an unlicensed MSB. This is far more about that then it is about banning privacy technologies generally. For traditional Bitcoin mixers as in this case, someone receives money from users and then transmits money to many users. This is money transmission and requires registration with FinCEN and sometimes requires registration with states (though some states have exemptions for completely crypto to crypto transmission that doesn't touch USD or other fiat).
Mixing in this case is interactive where there is a clear money transmitter. In Monero's case, the ring signature "mixing" (mixing is a terrible/misleading way to refer to ring signatures) is non-interactive, and there is no intermediary (eg: a mixer) acting as a money transmitter. Thus, there is nothing to fear from this specific enforcement action.
I'm happy to answer other questions as well. But for money transmission to occur, an intermediary needs to accept customer funds. For a Monero transfer, there is no intermediary. Someone could build an MSB on Monero itself which would require registration, but using Monero to send funds directly to a merchant for one's own purchase, for example, is not money transmission.
We would be kidding ourselves if we denied the geopolitical implications of that reporting burden. For Taiwan for example every single international transaction is proxied through a US bank.
I believe the geopolitics behind it is to ensure that the US is able to enforce their international sanctions. Anything bypassing that definitely a thorn in their eyes.
However we shouldn't forget that there are those that would like to reduce the reliance on those systems. So while US banks may cut off access other countries may not.
EDIT: yes, the US is not the only country doing that. Iran for example while bartering with China also completely banned cryptocurrencies for the longest time. Then finally allowed blockchain applications but only if they are used for non payment purposes.
I think the most commonsense reform is to have computer crime handled by specialized courts, much the same as tax law currently is. These domains are simply too complex to have them handled by legal generalists, who are expected to learn it all from first principles on each and every case.
But also yes, the Supreme Court has discretionary appeals jurisdiction over any federal case.
In addition to laundering money. But they were charged with money laundering too.
"COUNT ONE (Conspiracy To Launder Monetary Instruments)"
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1249026/downl...
They are huge fines and decades in jail sentences at play in money laundering. How sure are you? Not that anyone is going to do X or Y because someone in a thread said so, but things aren't as simple sometimes. Add the potential penalties and...
https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/FinCEN%20...
It should also be noted that government does not seem to know how to deal with privacy oriented coins ( ref#1 - discussion of current regime for crypto as seen by US AG ). That said, they seem to suggest ( page 41 ) that using Monero is inherently risky and prone to illicit activity and businesses allowing its use "should consider the increased risks". Knowing how banks read those types of documents, you can safely bet banks will simply refuse to bank anyone if there is even a whiff of transaction with Monero, Zcash, Dash.
Ref#1:https://www.justice.gov/ag/page/file/1326061/download
edit: Disclaimer. Do not be an idiot. I am just a guy on the internet. If in doubt, hire an actual lawyer.
Also, again, I am not a lawyer. In other words, I fully accept the possibility that I am wrong.
However, I do know how conservative banks are.
>This is money transmission and requires registration with FinCEN
Could you clarify the practical constraints on this assertion? If I am an alien living on the moon and connected to the Internet with lasers, who is enforcing any "requirement" and how?
https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/FinCEN%20...
> Providers of anonymizing services, commonly referred to as “mixers” or “tumblers,” are either persons that accept CVCs and retransmit them in a manner designed to prevent others from tracing the transmission back to its source (anonymizing services provider), or suppliers of software a transmittor would use for the same purpose (anonymizing software provider).
> An anonymizing services provider is a money transmitter under FinCEN regulations. The added feature of concealing the source of the transaction does not change that person’s status under the BSA.
> An anonymizing software provider is not a money transmitter. FinCEN regulations exempt from the definition of money transmitter those persons providing “the delivery, communication, or network access services used by a money transmitter to support money transmission services.” This is because suppliers of tools (communications, hardware, or software) that may be utilized in money transmission, like anonymizing software, are engaged in trade and not money transmission.
Another resource: https://www.perkinscoie.com/en/news-insights/anti-money-laun...
How does that not make Monero itself liable as an "anonymizing software provider"?
> An anonymizing software provider is not a money transmitter. FinCEN regulations exempt from the definition of money transmitter those persons providing “the delivery, communication, or network access services used by a money transmitter to support money transmission services.” This is because suppliers of tools (communications, hardware, or software) that may be utilized in money transmission, like anonymizing software, are engaged in trade and not money transmission.
In simple terms, the Monero developers are providing software (the Monero network, nodes, and wallet software) that can be used for money transmission, but the developers do not need to register as MSBs unless they also have a side company that conducts money transmission.
Applying the law to a generic set of facts, or to your own facts, is fine.
If not then this is opinion.
Payment is generally not required to establish an attorney-client relationship.
> Are you a client? Was this directed at you?
No, but I'm looking at it from the perspective of the poster it was directed at.
BTW here's some legal advice: don't jaywalk. I think it's illegal in some places.
Some states regulate this very heavily, others don't care as much. Generally, California tends to regulate this pretty heavily for lawyers (for purposes of creating an attorney-client relationships that can subject them to malpractice claims) but otherwise not at all for non-lawyers unless they specifically hold themselves out to be in the business of providing legal advice (very common with immigration issues). So, offering random advice on the internet wouldn't be an issue for a non-lawyer (but could be one for a practicing lawyer if they get too specific).
However I don't know if obfuscation alone would be considered illegal: In this case, the services went beyond merely facilitating obfuscation. They were not properly registered as a Money Services Business, and they specifically marketed their services for use in illicit transactions. Going back to the DRM example, it's the difference between software that has legitimate uses but could be used to break DRM (Think binary editors to crack a video game's DRM) as compared to advertising your binary editor not as a general purpose tool, but for that specific illegal purpose.
(Disregarding, for a moment, the philosophical issues surrounding the use of DRM, on which I tend to lean more towards less use of DRM)
https://cointelegraph.com/news/doj-says-use-of-privacy-coins...
"Indicative of possible criminal conduct" means more than just "looking like a criminal." That means, if you were to be arrested for something, your use of Monero might count as evidence that you were involved in criminal activity. Combined with enough other circumstantial evidence, it might even contribute to your conviction, even without a smoking gun. This would depend on the judge and jury, but it's worth noting.
I don't think it's "better" for people to ignore the risks of certain behaviors and pretend those risks don't exist. You apparently care a lot about optimizing a particular dimension: privacy. Recognize that other people have different mixes of priorities. Not everyone must agree with yours. Some people who disagree with you might even comment on this very site, as offensive as that is.
A bigger issue might be if it counts as "probable cause" to get a warrant. Seizure of records and computers would put a crimp in anyone's day, even with no conviction or even an arrest.[0] Heck, even if all it does is in practical terms is to raise the odds of an IRS audit a bit, or raise the odds of an audit becoming a criminal investigation (by being considered a "badge of fraud"[1]), that would be enough to squelch adoption.
[0] Maybe Steve Jackson Games should start working on a "Cryptopunk" GURPS module and get raided[2] again: http://www.sjgames.com/SS/
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraudulent_conveyance
[2] Holy crapoly, that was 30 years ago. Damn, I feel old.
If everyone took your advice no one would protest, write a political comment against anyone in power, take any position that isn't accepted by all and be ready to drop that opinion when society shifts.
You live in a free society. Use your freedom or risk losing it.
Privacy has never been more important to the aggregate HN commenter than it is today. Moreover, nothing I said enjoins people from making political statements or protests.
Alternatively, buy bitcoin through your bank. Use it to buy monero on an exchange.
Alternatively, wait 6-9 months and exchange your btc with xmr using an atomic swap, on-chain.
How do you ensure this person does not know who you are, whilst also ensuring they don't steal your $1m?
> Alternatively, buy bitcoin through your bank. Use it to buy monero on an exchange.
Difficult to do this anonymously.
Using cash then localmoneros or bisq would be fine.
Deliberately hiding the origin of funds is itself criminal conduct, though. It's true that AML statutes tend to be hyperspecific, because it's a difficult area to regulate. So areas like crytocurrency mixing are gray and uncertain even among law enforcement lawyers. It's not true, however, that there is an inherent right to unrestricted private transfer of money.
Bascially, the statement you're reading is not saying "Mixing is probably illegal because the money must have been illegal to begin with". It's saying that "Mixing is probably money laundering on its face, no matter where the money came from."
At some point governments are going to need to step in and clarify this with laws. But don't fool yourself: Crypto mixers are going to end up being subject to effectively the same reporting requirements that banks are. What you want (perfect financial privacy) you can't have, sorry. That ship sailed decades ago.
I'm sort of amazed they didn't outlaw mixers ages ago, however
> What you want (perfect financial privacy) you can't have, sorry. That ship sailed decades ago.
Perhaps that's true in principle, just as it's true to say obtaining (insert illicit drug of choice here) in perfect safety from the law enforcement agencies is not possible. The USA can only shut down USA mixers. The only way to deal with mixers operating outside of USA law is to prosecute the USA citizen sending his money to a mixer. That is orders of magnitude harder because they can't know if a newly minted bitcoin address is owned by a mixer, or belongs to a USA citizen.
It may not be perfect, but given one of bitcoin's niche's is a payment system for illegal activities that are already very much imperfect, the protection offers is undoubtedly good enough.
You can have it. You just need to do everything in cash and not use the banking system. Of course, there's a lot of advantages to the banking system... But you can still use things like safety deposit boxes for storage, gold to help protect against inflation, etc.
Money laundering is a crime, all by itself. It doesn't matter where the money comes from or what form it takes. The spirit behind AML legislation, long established, is that the government has the right to see where money is held and to whom it is transferred.
Minutiae about mechanism might appeal to software nerds, but it doesn't address the underlying issue. This fight was fought, and lost, more than half a century ago.
No, money laundering is deliberately hiding the origins of the proceeds of crime. Making an effort to maintain financial privacy is not in itself illegal.
>>It's saying that "Mixing is probably money laundering on its face, no matter where the money came from."
No, money laundering is by definition hiding the origins of illegally obtained money. If the money is not the proceeds of criminal enterprise, then hiding its origins is not, by definition, money laundering.
Exercising privacy-protection with respect to legally obtained money may be illegal, or with new laws be made illegal, but it does not and will not ever fall under the definition of money laundering, as that is not the definition of money laundering.
I guess that the final question will be if it's used more for "good" or for "bad" purposes (or maybe just if the amount of "bad" purposes surpasses a certain acceptable level).
(same thing about cash - I think that most governments keep introducing stricter rules about cash withdrawals/deposits/transfers)
Yes, possible, focus on the "can/might". In general I would say that it's less likely (on the other hand there will always be 100% chances of the opposite, meaning that there will always be N bad citizens brainstorming about how to use "the system"/"any system" for their own advantage).
> When the government consistently omits threats from state bodies in its risk analyses, then the public tends to overlook that danger and ...
Well, it can be true (meaning that in general people are probably more prone to accept compromises when they feel threatened), but such a general discussion is in my opinion out of context here. Monero was designed to handle transactions in a way that pushes privacy to the extremes, unluckily at the same time the same mechanism can be used as well by criminals.
Personally I think that "currently" the ones benefiting of the features offered by a cryptocurrency like Monero are mostly criminals as I don't think that most people have a strong need for highly-private transactions (might change in the future). Monero's other features of flexibility/access/etc... (to e.g. be able to trade in 3rd world countries without the need to have a bank account) are already offered by other cryptocurrencies.
I would say the potential risks from the state are much more extreme, even if they are less likely to materialize.
>>Monero are mostly criminals as I don't think that most people have a strong need for highly-private transactions
Cryptocurrencies right now are largely unusable due to them actively compromising their users' privacy.
Crypto users are aware of this and their attempts to cover their digital tracks makes use of crypto cumbersome.
Privacy-protected crypto solves this.
https://www.perkinscoie.com/en/news-insights/anti-money-laun...
“Companies that choose to offer AEC products should consider the increased risks of money laundering and financing of criminal activity, and should evaluate whether it is possible to adopt appropriate AML/CFT measures to address such risks.”
The interpretation that somebody is liable for mixing at all, with no illicit use proven within the transactions, is probably questionable. The miners are also not receiving dirty money as compensation, so even more so.
And even with illicit use shown, laundering can happen with just about anything you can buy and sell, so, unless every retail store is doing KYC, then they could also be exposed to such liability.
Above all, I don't know if coercion is a successful long-term strategy for defeating privacy coins. Even for criminals, the value must tie back to average citizens purchasing it from them, and even with no enforcement they would not want to be part of that, and the value would collapse. If a privacy coin does have value, it reflects political fears of the average citizen, and aggressive enforcement unaligned with common values may actually increase its value.
The dollar system is the most valuable partially because it does enforce common values, and permits all else within. But obviously not everybody believes that this is guaranteed in the future.
If reporting is already required for all cash transactions, then certainly it will be built into the digital USD.
And Monero miners would have a problem here too. KYC required on every transaction in every block.
Okay, so, what if you did KYC on all the inputs, but you ran a mixer such that the outputs would be obfuscated? Is that legal? What if you take outputs from a set of those mixers? Is there any legal way to provide irreversible privacy for known legal sources?
governments have years to come after you (and in many countries: the rest of your life)
that's the point: even if you're not doing anything shady you don't really know what sort of long term risk you're taking on if you're using something that looks to governments as if it's tailor made for money laundering
At what point do you say enough is enough, and embrace the idea that you should minimize your digital footprint whenever possible?
a technology specifically designed to allow untracable electronic monetary transactions is going to be many orders of magnitude riskier to use
It’s just too much of a risk and a bother, and I suspect it will only get worse from here.
I really don’t need something that might come back to bite me financially or even criminally 25 years from now.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2020/09/14/irs...
https://www.perkinscoie.com/images/content/2/3/v3/237411/Per...
TL;DR: I wouldn't be nervous if I was you.
But even if they compelled users to list addresses of the coins they own, the nature of Monero makes it very redundant. It would be ineffective and a waste of time, and it wouldn't stop users from exchanging it.
You also need to be careful not to deny in an official way that you own Monero if that is the case.
Could be argued that it hasn't yet been picked up by exchanges for this reason.
Also, looking at the more corporate friendly Zcash which was dropped by Coinbase UK [0]. Likely from pressure from their banking partner ClearBank.
These coins won't last without a mechanism to covert to fiat.
[0] - https://www.coindesk.com/coinbase-uk-dropping-support-for-cr...
Monero is traded at Kraken, a U.S.-based exchange. Kraken even has a banking charter in Wyoming.
I've heard the argument that it is impossible for the US Government to regulate decentralized cryptocurrencies. FinCEN cannot force a change in the Bitcoin or Monero protocols. However it is entirely within the government's authority to regulate the users of said currencies. So I imagine the government would add onerous reporting requirements for any citizen or corporation holding privacy based coins in order to circumvent their privacy features.