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Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by rland on Sunday October 04, 2020 @07:40PM (#24683137)
This discussion reminds me of a short story, Liking What You See: A Documentary by Ted Chiang (same guy who wrote the plot of the movie Arrival). There might be a pdf floating around on the internet, it's a 20 min read.

Basically, it's about a reversible procedure called "calli" that turns off the neurological response to symmetry, smoothness, and "aesthetic" of a human face. So someone with the procedure can recognize different faces, but they don't feel any better about a pretty face than an ugly one.

The story follows a girl who had calli done as a young child, and then decided to go to college with it turned off. When she's there, there's a push on campus to mandate the procedure, to combat "lookism." The story is written like a documentary film, so it has little snippets of interviews, news articles, etc. about the debate.

The range of emotions we get from looking at other people's faces is intrinsically worth saving. But, people get a huge advantage from being good-looking. It's effectively discrimination to consider people who are good looking more trustworthy, nicer, etc, yet all of us do -- it's hard wired. The world is not really fair to someone with a bad looking face.

These apps aren't calli but they do mediate how we see the world, ourselves, and others to a huge degree. I don't envy any middle school girl who has to navigate this landscape. Anyway, I highly recommend the story, it was such an interesting way of looking at the issue.

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by sriku on Sunday October 04, 2020 @10:48PM (#24684103)
"calliagnosia" or "the inability to perceive prettiness". Ted Chiang's works are mind-blowing and I recommend this. It is a great piece on giving different perspectives on this issue from different parties' perspectives .. like journalism embedded in sci-fi.

As for the article itself, I find myself gravitating towards not trusting Google's (or such org's) motives in this. After all, if such a touchup feature were activated by default, it would skew Google's face dataset away from real faces and embed a notion of "Calli" in their face models.

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by rememberlenny on Sunday October 04, 2020 @09:28PM (#24683746)
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by ColanR on Sunday October 04, 2020 @07:53PM (#24683222)
> there's a push on campus to mandate the procedure, to combat "lookism."

That sounds incredibly dystopian.

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by whytaka on Monday October 05, 2020 @01:06AM (#24684705)
Consider how dystopian it is that there are classes of people nigh-instantly dismissed because of their appearance. That's plenty dystopian, no?
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by ColanR on Monday October 05, 2020 @11:17AM (#24688491)
What's even more dystopian is mandated, invasive, mind-altering surgery. As far as 'my body, my choice' goes, there's little difference between that and the forced sterilization China used to mandate.
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by xwdv on Monday October 05, 2020 @01:20AM (#24684758)
No, that’s the natural way the world works, natural selection.
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by rland on Sunday October 04, 2020 @08:52PM (#24683572)
Just to play devil's advocate:

I mean, yes, this hypothetical procedure does sound dystopian on its face (haha). But then again, imagine if you just judged people by how nice they actually were, not by what their face looked like? Imagine if you were evaluated by the merits of your mind, of you, not the 'flawed' representation of you (your face) given to you by your DNA?

I've been helped enormously in almost every area of my life by the way I look and how I'm able to present myself physically. Much of that is because of my DNA -- something I didn't work for or ask for. It was given to me for free. Likewise, others are deprived through no fault of their own. Of course, that's the way it is. I like being attractive and having attractive friends and romantic partners. But what if it didn't matter? Would my life be richer?

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by Infinitesimus on Sunday October 04, 2020 @09:03PM (#24683632)
> Imagine if you were evaluated by the merits of your mind, of you, not the 'flawed' representation of you (your face) given to you by your DNA?

Do you believe that accidents of genes (and actions taken by the mother at times) affect brain development? If so, aren't we just moving the problem to a different body part ?

(keeping the devil's advocate train going )

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by esperent on Sunday October 04, 2020 @09:40PM (#24683812)
It's a good train to keep going, and the end of the line will be the realisation that allowing some people to receive better treatment for any reason, birth, wealth, looks, intelligence, or anything else, is inherantly unfair.

I hope that some day in the future we'll look back on the way poor people are treated now with the same horror we have today if we hear a black or gay person was refused healthcare or another service.

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by montenegrohugo on Sunday October 04, 2020 @10:46PM (#24684094)
That's basically what John Rawls ends up concluding [1]. But the same line of thinking also leads to the conclusion that Free Will doesn't really exist, rather we humans are a product of our environment/genetics (and thus don't inherently deserve better treatment or rewards since all our efforts and subsequent results aren't 'really' our own doing). I wrote a little bit about this here [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance

[2] https://www.hugomontenegro.com/blog/the-absurdity-of-free-wi...

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by fpig on Monday October 05, 2020 @02:23AM (#24685067)
This veil of ignorance is such a simple concept, yet it never occurred to me. It’s actually making me reevaluate my worldview. Thanks for linking it!
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by Infinitesimus on Monday October 05, 2020 @11:56AM (#24688887)
I agree with the conclusion but I'm quite stumped on how to improve that today since aren't even aware of our biases in most interactions. Some definition of Universal Income/Access helps but incentives aren't aligned with the most powerful groups today.

My patchwork strategy nowadays is "Nature is always unfair on the individual level. Leverage your advantages to make life better for those less fortunate." and hope enough people do this to improve the world.

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by kleer001 on Sunday October 04, 2020 @10:38PM (#24684059)
Does "better treatment" include higher wages for skills demonstrated? Or are you talking, like, equal application of law? That what I'd assume.
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by Infinitesimus on Monday October 05, 2020 @11:50AM (#24688817)
I'm not sure it is possible to separate those two things as long as our behaviours subtly change because of some quality we perceive in another person.

A baseline for human needs ( food, shelter, access to health and opportunities to develop oneself) can be codified into law but we'll always find a way to express those biases at the higher levels IMO.

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by kleer001 on Monday October 05, 2020 @07:53PM (#24693393)
> can be codified into law but we'll always find a way...

Which is the best argument for a minimal legal ethical codes. Any system can be hacked, especially those designed by humans. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. So...

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by esperent on Sunday October 04, 2020 @11:18PM (#24684270)
Sure, that's not an issue. Those higher wages can be used to purchase trinkets like a bigger car, fancier house, whatever. As long as the important stuff like education, healthcare, transportation, legal advice etc. are equally accessible to all, and more importantly, you can't buy better healthcare, education, or legal support with more money.
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by orangecat on Sunday October 04, 2020 @11:31PM (#24684325)
more importantly, you can't buy better healthcare, education, or legal support with more money

That's Harrison Bergeron territory. Sorry, you can't go on a vacation to France because your kids might learn something.

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by esperent on Monday October 05, 2020 @12:54AM (#24684670)
Obviously, like all political ideas, if you take it to the extreme it becomes nonsense.

For example, we are currently living the idea of capitalism taken to the extreme, where one man can own a trillion dollars while others can't afford healthcare or education, and it's clearly becoming more and more nonsensical to allow this. Let's try swinging the needle in the other direction for a while.

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by paxys on Monday October 05, 2020 @02:03AM (#24684964)
The difference here is that a good brain is adding value to society. A good face (arguably) isn't.
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by Infinitesimus on Monday October 05, 2020 @11:46AM (#24688779)
I don't think that's quite clear in a capitalist world though. Good faces and whole industries around good faces have led to billions and billions of "wealth" being created through direct careers and indirect revenue streams like modeling, etc. ( The "utility" of those existing is a different animal but goes too far from the main thread)
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by Aeolun on Sunday October 04, 2020 @08:17PM (#24683368)
Not once everyone has it done automatically and society accepts it. It’ll be something like a vaccine against the measles.
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by monadic2 on Sunday October 04, 2020 @08:32PM (#24683457)
Given that it's a work of fiction, it's literally dystopian!
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by scubbo on Sunday October 04, 2020 @08:51PM (#24683567)
> The range of emotions we get from looking at other people's faces is intrinsically worth saving.

Citation needed? It's almost-certainly net-enjoyable - but, when you go on to acknowledge that the mere fact of those emotions leads to discrimination against some people, how do you justify this statement other than "those emotions are natural"?

To be clear, I am _not_ saying that I would support mandatory calli - forcibly changing someone's neurological responses is an astonishingly dangerous precedent to set; as another commenter points out, that would be terribly dystopian - but I don't think I can agree with your specific statement.

Regardless - this sounds like a fascinating story, I'll have a look - thanks!

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by appletrotter on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:29AM (#24687570)
No citation needed
Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by mlindner on Sunday October 04, 2020 @10:24PM (#24683984)
> yet all of us do -- it's hard wired.

It's important to note that we're hard wired because it was evolutionary beneficial to "push out" people who look bad/incorrect/not-normal. If you have a gene that mutates then it's possible you could have other mutations that make you not suitable reproductively so it became ingrained to avoid those who look bad to get genes that would produce more fit offspring.

Re:Face retouching settings should be off by default by fortran77 on Monday October 05, 2020 @08:48AM (#24687252)
Also I thought that in 2020 it is becoming more generally recognizes that people have a right to an “affectional” preference. It should be OK no to be attracted to someone.