Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by zw123456 on Thursday September 24, 2020 @07:52PM (#24585035)

I have a personal experience story regarding crows. This is completely anecdotal of course but, to me, compelling. I live on an island near Seattle, very quiet and rural. We have a lot of wild life. One morning I was woke by persistent crowing by... well crows. Black Crows (not the band).

Having been awoke from wonderful REM sleep I was understandably annoyed. So I went out to the street in front of my house and grabbed a handful of pebbles to throw at these poor little creatures.

I went out on my upper deck and these crows seemed very upset and were circling in a crazy pattern. I looked around, realizing that something was making them crazy, and they were making me crazy. Then I saw, I am not completely sure if it was a racoon or a badger but it was a small animal of some sort that was edging his way out on the limb of a tree where what appeared to be perhaps the little home of the crows and there babies or eggs or something.

So... in my groggy state, I reasoned that if I were to; instead of tossing my pebbles at the crows, I were to toss them at whatever that thing was, then the crows would shut up and let me go back to sleep. I admit, not the most altruistic of motives but, I had a goal.

So I tossed my pebbles at this thing (I am an engineer not a biologist so excuse my ignorance) but the little cat like creature scampered off and left the crows little home in the tree next to my house, alone.

I am completely fine with having crows as neighbors as long as they do not wake me at pre-dawn hours.

The very interesting thing is that since then, it really seems like they have become my little friends. Like little neighbors. OK, I could be a kook, if this had not happened I would think I was a Kook. But when I see them they bob their head. I crow back at them.

They were sitting on the ledge of my roof, and I went out on my deck and they scared me and I screamed. Then I waved at them like... OK it is you. Hi.

They were leaving some sort of bone fragments on my upper deck like a gift of some sort. I didn't know what to do, so I would pick it up and throw it in the trash. But it kept happening. So I eventually would leave it out there and just waive at them.

I have no idea if we are actually communicating but.. they seem highly intelligent to me.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by hexbinencoded on Thursday September 24, 2020 @11:40PM (#24586356)

Yep. You can make friends with crows, and they will remember you for a very long time. If you get shiny things, then you're the crow's meow. Bones maybe just "meh."

https://youtu.be/dg3ApNJct6Q

https://youtu.be/0fiAoqwsc9g

https://youtu.be/HWXe7Js6GnI

https://youtu.be/VOmRNeYZVfE

Furthermore, crows can be sneaky. A murder of them hanging out behind my mechanic's goaded the dork of the group into stealing a bag sunflower seeds on top of a rolling toolbox 30 ft / 10 m on the other side of the shop from the roll-up doors. It had to figure-out how to sneak-in, hop up on the toolbox, and sneak-out without being detected like a bloody ninja. The group of them had a sunflower seed party in the alley and one mechanic wondered where his snack went to. And there were 3 people in the shop at the time! xD

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by yellowapple on Friday September 25, 2020 @08:04AM (#24588876)

Not only will those crows remember you, but so will other crows that have never seen you before. There's growing evidence that crows are capable of social learning, teaching things to other crows in the murder (including subsequent generations).

I strongly suspect that one of these days we're going to discover that crows and their relatives are not only capable of using language, but already are speaking languages that we just haven't deciphered yet.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by orestarod on Friday September 25, 2020 @09:45PM (#24595775)

Instead of a full fledged language, they may have a more restricted language to communicate that "that" human is friendly - so the friendly crows you have never seen before may have seen you first, together with your buddy, and been informed of your friendliness. To recognise you as friend without ever meeting you before needs a lot more complex language.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by saurik on Saturday September 26, 2020 @04:39AM (#24597312)

Yeah: and likely much more complex language than I as a human would even be capable of, unless the person I am supposed to be friends with has some very notable physical feature.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by b0rsuk on Friday September 25, 2020 @08:35AM (#24589027)

Jays (another corvid) are fast, sneaky, and mostly silent until they screech. The funny part is they're great at mimicking sounds. Here's a jay mimicking a cat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=YFdO_5DgK7M

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by smusamashah on Friday September 25, 2020 @08:40AM (#24589062)

There is a saying here in Pakistan (India too perhaps) that when crows 'crow', some guests come.

I think it originated from the observation that they started crowing whenever they saw some new person coming.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by rutherblood on Friday September 25, 2020 @12:03PM (#24591231)

Where I grew up (south Gujarat, IN) every year someday in September, families prepare multiple plates of good food and place them out on terraces for the crows to eat. They believe the crows eating this food to be recently deceased ancestors/family. The number of plates placed usually correspond to the number of deaths the family's witnessed in living memory.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by pradn on Friday September 25, 2020 @11:32AM (#24590863)

I can attest that this saying is common in South India (Andhra Pradesh specifically). It doesn't necessarily the guests will arrive immediately after - it can be sometime during that day.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by disparate_dan on Thursday September 24, 2020 @11:27PM (#24586303)

I have a woodworking setup in my garage and in summer I work with the doors open. The local crows know me and come by in small groups and I’ll throw a few peanuts for them.

One time recently, my shop vac’s 20-foot hose got clogged so I took it out into the back yard to unclog with a broom pole. Took me a while, and I had to shake it vigorously quite a bit before I was done. When I looked up there were more than a dozen crows quietly perched in the tree above me, watching closely. I realize that to them it might have looked like I was fighting a huge snake to the death! Afterwards I’m sure they all took turns to come check on me (or maybe get more peanuts, but they were definitely more attentive that day).

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by hnick on Thursday September 24, 2020 @10:38PM (#24586054)

Magpies (unrelated to European magpies) are similar in Australia. There are stories of multi-generational respect (that is, the parents teach the next generation not to swoop and annoy the nice human). Wikipedia says they can remember up to 100 people.

Here are a few nice stories:

https://theconversation.com/magpies-can-form-friendships-wit...

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by ggm on Friday September 25, 2020 @06:37AM (#24588445)

Magpies and Currawongs hold "court" and shun members who don't conform to local rules. And, administer punishment in exemplary fashion in front of the community.

https://www.booktopia.com.au/australian-magpie-2nd-edition-g...

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by liability on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:33AM (#24587124)

> Wikipedia says they can remember up to 100 people.

Damn, that might be more than I can.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by phillc73 on Friday September 25, 2020 @05:52AM (#24588251)

My mother feeds the local magpies, who turn up every morning for their free feed. One can argue about whether this is environmentally sound, but my mother lives alone and she enjoys the connection. She has them literally eating out of her hand.

This week she sent me a photo of a young juvenile magpie which had arrived for the first time, clearly brought along by the parents to learn the ropes.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by hnick on Friday September 25, 2020 @09:51AM (#24589659)

I know an older lady who does this too, she just grabs beef mince from the fridge and feeds them every day. That probably isn't too harmful for them, at least it's not bread.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by barbs on Friday September 25, 2020 @07:26PM (#24595072)

My grandma does the same thing. She'll come out and withold the food until it sings

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by KineticLensman on Friday September 25, 2020 @06:58AM (#24588559)

Not just true of crows. I volunteer at a raptor conservation organisation in the UK. Many of the birds (eagles, vultures, owls, etc) recognise several people, especially those that fed them when they were being trained. They demonstrate this in the free-flying displays (where they could in principle just fly off if they wanted to) by routinely returning to the keeper, sometimes after flights where they travel some distance from the display area. They are also good at recognising and responding to signals, especially those that indicate a food treat may be forthcoming. In some cases the birds dislike specific individuals and will not work with them in a display.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by jaxx75 on Thursday September 24, 2020 @08:23PM (#24585218)

Black Crows, REM, Kooks... I really kept reading this assuming it was a troll post, but still entertained by the anecdote!

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by zw123456 on Thursday September 24, 2020 @08:30PM (#24585260)

I always love when reality and music collide in strange ways. It always drives my thinking into directions I don't expect.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by vbsteven on Friday September 25, 2020 @03:08AM (#24587310)

I'm just glad he used Rocks instead of a Metal Crowbar as a Tool to fight off the badger

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by dkdbejwi383 on Friday September 25, 2020 @04:07AM (#24587684)

I thought it was a badge, but then realised it had spikes. Unfortunately the unwanted guest in my Porcupine Tree fought back, and being that this happened on the 14th of February is how I ended up calling this My Bloody Valentine.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by vbsteven on Friday September 25, 2020 @04:46AM (#24587892)

When all else fails, there is always a Bullet for My Valentine, luckily it was February, if it was Novembers Doom you would have been in for a Life of Agony with the only way out being a Five Finger Death Punch inside A Perfect Circle. That would have been the Story Of The Year.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by mikeshank on Friday September 25, 2020 @07:22AM (#24588658)

S L A Y E R!

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by fossuser on Thursday September 24, 2020 @08:17PM (#24585185)

There are other cases of them bringing shiny rocks and glass to humans as gifts.

I think this is well established.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by monkeybutton on Thursday September 24, 2020 @08:48PM (#24585363)

Your comment reminded me of another article about crows. It sounds like gifting is a known phenomenon but isn't that well established or researched.

https://www.audubon.org/news/did-crows-actually-make-these-g...

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by lemmonii on Thursday September 24, 2020 @11:40PM (#24586357)

Is there a possibility of human-crow co-evolution? I really can't think of any other reason the crow would give gifts.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by b0rsuk on Friday September 25, 2020 @08:44AM (#24589096)

According to a book I read, Cheyennes divide birds into three groups: plain, great, and sacred. To my great amusement they count magpies into the sacred ones. They like them because they live close to humans, talk, and announce visitors.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by r721 on Friday September 25, 2020 @07:49AM (#24588806)

There was a news story about dolphins bringing gifts as well: https://7news.com.au/news/wildlife/dolphins-bring-gifts-from...

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by fossuser on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:49AM (#24587207)

Not sure this is required?

If crows are social and they have their own theory of mind it’s not a huge leap to suspect they’d make friends or try and give friends what they think are valuable gifts and that wouldn’t need to be limited to just other crows.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by jacobush on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:38AM (#24587149)

There is an idea about Crow-Wolf co-evolution. Humans could take the Wolf place quite easily IMHO.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by 1_player on Friday September 25, 2020 @12:00AM (#24586448)

The girl who gets gifts from birds: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31604026

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by mcv on Friday September 25, 2020 @06:53AM (#24588529)

Your life would probably look very different if you'd thrown those pebbles at the crows like you originally intended. Crows can carry grudges for a very long time.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by liveoneggs on Thursday September 24, 2020 @08:21PM (#24585201)

crows and other birds are very good at recognizing faces so they absolutely know it's you

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by zw123456 on Thursday September 24, 2020 @08:34PM (#24585278)

I do feel like they are my little buddies now. When ever I seem them I make a crowing sound. I think maybe they think I am a crazy bird. They are probably right. But, I weirdly feel like they are my friends. Hahaha.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by chillacy on Thursday September 24, 2020 @09:26PM (#24585648)

Almost sounds like making offerings to a friendly god. How curious!

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by zw123456 on Thursday September 24, 2020 @09:52PM (#24585802)

So am I am the god then ? hahaha Well, from a "devout" atheist, you tickled my funny bone :)

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by hutzlibu on Friday September 25, 2020 @07:03AM (#24588575)

Ah, I am not so sure, crows consider humans gods. They kind of lack respect for that ..

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by yellowapple on Friday September 25, 2020 @08:06AM (#24588889)

I mean, it ain't like we humans are known for being consistently reverent toward our own gods, either.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by liveoneggs on Saturday September 26, 2020 @02:01PM (#24600779)

some god -- they'd eat you if they had the chance

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by UI_at_80x24 on Thursday September 24, 2020 @09:11PM (#24585543)

  What makes Corvids truly fascinating, is that their offspring will be taught to recognize them too.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by inglor_cz on Friday September 25, 2020 @02:06AM (#24587016)

Isn't it fascinating that even a different species must have some expression for "stay away from that Karen"?

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by mdpye on Friday September 25, 2020 @01:14PM (#24591944)

I'll charitably assume that you're missing a comma and the crow-kid is called Karen.

And if you aren't, I'll ask you to take your mysogynist slurs elsewhere.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by powerapple on Friday September 25, 2020 @04:56AM (#24587942)

Can they recognize person? I highly doubt it because even humans, we are very good recognizing faces, still not very good recognizing faces from another race. I know birds can recognize themselves, from feather patterns and so on. I would think the way they see us would be similar to the way we see them, they probably look the same to us.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by ceejayoz on Friday September 25, 2020 @07:26AM (#24588674)

Crows recognize individual humans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/science/26crow.html

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by unkulunkulu on Sunday September 27, 2020 @01:07PM (#24608137)

Why do you think people are bad at recognizing people of another race? When you rarely meet people of some race then maybe, yes, but I think it must be a matter of experience and you will get better. Think twins for example, after a little time with them you’ll differentiate them easily.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by liveoneggs on Saturday September 26, 2020 @02:09PM (#24600835)

humans are terrible at faces. Chickens are much better at it.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by voidhorse on Thursday September 24, 2020 @10:29PM (#24585999)

Not kooky at all, I think that's eminently plausible. Surely there must have been similar "fetch" style interactions between humans and wild dogs before we tamed them?

It's great that you have a relationship with these crows! Surprise connections with the wild are one of those rare, special things in life that have deep power.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by sunnyP on Thursday September 24, 2020 @07:58PM (#24585077)

It happens quite often around me too. They like to heckle a fox. Crows are the neighborhood predator alarm.

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by zw123456 on Thursday September 24, 2020 @08:27PM (#24585242)

https://www.bing.com/search?q=black+crowes+lyrics&qs=SS&pq=b...

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by lumberingjack on Friday September 25, 2020 @06:59AM (#24588563)

Hunting them you get just about the same type of stories. Sometimes they realize a hunter has set a trap in the deep forest and they will lead their enemies to the trap. I seen them use tools, and talk to warn others or say "hey get over here!"

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Re:Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primaril... by Nihilisius on Thursday September 24, 2020 @11:12PM (#24586216)

It seems they have the capacity for the principle of reciprocity, amazing!

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