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Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by sime2009 on Sunday September 13, 2020 @12:42PM (#24462050)
A better model for thinking of users is to realise that they are not stupid, just busy and distracted. From an app point of view you can count yourself lucky if you get even 10% of their attention at any given time.

Users aren't thinking about your app when they use it.

That person in MSWord isn't thinking about the ribbon bar. They are thinking about how to address that new prospective customer.

That person in Excel isn't thinking about cells either. They are thinking about whether Robin in R&D is going to get the figures for Q2 to them in time.

Users have tasks to concentrate on. They don't have the attention left over to deal with your app's crappy UI.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by dkarl on Sunday September 13, 2020 @03:01PM (#24463079)
The side effect of being busy and distracted is that they're extremely thrifty with their attention, and sometimes their split-second subconscious decision not to look closely at something gets locked in and not reevaluated. About 70% of the IT support I do for my family goes like this:

Voice from the next room: "Can you help me, dkarl? The computer won't save my document."

Me, comfy in my chair: "What does it say?"

"It's doing something weird."

"Weird how? What does it say?"

"I don't know, I was just saving like I always do, and now there's this window and it wants me to do something."

"What is it asking you to do?"

"It wants me to click something? I don't know, maybe it wants a password or it's not going to do it because of iCloud or something? It's been weird lately."

"Okay. What are the words in the window where it wants you to click something?"

"It says... oh, it says there's another file with this name already."

"Okay, do you want me to come over there and help you find the other file and see what's in it?"

"No, I can do it. Thank you!"

I think one of the reasons I find computers relatively easy is that I compulsively read whatever you put in front of me. I always read cereal boxes when I was a kid, even the non-kid cereal boxes that were all about colon health and fiber. But even I get this blindness sometimes, especially when I'm writing code and running builds and tests and trying to work quickly and efficiently. I'll get hung up on something for ten minutes where the answer is literally spelled out for me in front of my face.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by sli on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:37PM (#24463782)
This description rang pretty true for me. My mother is much, much better about it now, but practically all of my tech support with her for a while was little more than stopping her from closing error messages immediately, then just asking her to read them. At times I was almost impressed with how quickly and accurately she could click the Cancel button.

> I think one of the reasons I find computers relatively easy is that I compulsively read whatever you put in front of me.

Telling my mom this is what eventually got her to read error messages instead of closing them. She had to learn not to close them and then, separately, learn to also read them. I'll admit there were times where I was on the verge of crying out of frustration, begging her to "please just read the screen" because she would leave the error, but then still not actually read it and go with:

Me: "What does it say?"

Mom: "I don't know."

So glad things are better, now.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by nerdponx on Sunday September 13, 2020 @03:13PM (#24463170)
I think one of the reasons I find computers relatively easy is that I compulsively read whatever you put in front of me. I always read cereal boxes when I was a kid, even the non-kid cereal boxes that were all about colon health and fiber. But even I get this blindness sometimes, especially when I'm writing code and running builds and tests and trying to work quickly and efficiently. I'll get hung up on something for ten minutes where the answer is literally spelled out for me in front of my face.

This is an astute observation.

I also didn't know that other kids read cereal boxes like that... I thought it was just me!

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by neltnerb on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:31PM (#24463746)
There are likely some generational differences here... I definitely read even the nutritional information on the cereal boxes but it was because there was nothing whatsoever else to do during breakfast. If I had a smart phone I'd find something better to read.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by cbanek on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:07PM (#24463556)
I totally did this, and I found reading labels even more fun in Canada because they were also in French, and I didn't know any French!
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by saagarjha on Sunday September 13, 2020 @03:37PM (#24463328)
There's a fair number of them. If there are any parents here with children like that, try to see if you can get them introduced to local trivia competitions such as Science Bowl–it's an invaluable skill that will put you leagues ahead of anyone else since they will never be able to replicate your child's "years of studying".
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by Tyr42 on Sunday September 13, 2020 @06:26PM (#24464447)
Another datapoint for developer and also reading all the cereal boxes.

Or even just signs when driving down the highway. I can't help but read everything.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by jpindar on Monday September 14, 2020 @12:16AM (#24466698)
Same here.

It took me the longest time to realize that for some people reading is something that doesn't happen until they choose to do it.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by Aeolun on Sunday September 13, 2020 @07:54PM (#24464988)
We need some data points from non-developers now.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by chordalkeyboard on Sunday September 13, 2020 @11:55PM (#24466604)
Engineering student. Compulsive reader of all text within eyesight.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by snegu on Sunday September 13, 2020 @09:22PM (#24465670)
UX designer here who read all the cereal boxes. Still a compulsive reader, and the internet makes this a dangerous trait.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by coding123 on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:01PM (#24463506)
The other day my wife clicks "Save" in word. A folder comes up that she previously saved to. She types in a new file name.

Then says "hey hon, It won't let me save."

I see the error. Can't access disk. Immediately I think, well I replaced the HDD with and SSD, so that's probably not the problem. I look at the folder she's accessing, everything looks normal. It shows a bunch of other files in it. I go up a folder and back into the folder, and everything looks great, click Save - > same error again.

Finally I go to my computer -> and path my way back all the way into the same folder, click Save. It works and she says thank you!

And I'm thinking, what the fuck that shouldn't have fixed it.. walking away dumbfounded. No problem since, there's nothing wrong with the disk she's been using the computer for days since. It was literally a bug in word's specialized save dialog.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by WWLink on Sunday September 13, 2020 @05:16PM (#24464010)
I wonder if it was a bug in the way Windows handles "libraries". Like going to "documents" instead of going to c:\users\blah\documents. In fact I bet that's what it was. Maybe it thinks a USB stick is part of the "Documents" library or something.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by rightbyte on Monday September 14, 2020 @05:17AM (#24468240)
Non-english Windows has magic names for program, downloads, documents etc folders.

I see alot of apps using hardcoded paths since they create a "downloads" folder and save stuff to it.

Alot of bugs are exposed in a non US-eng install.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by neltnerb on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:29PM (#24463730)
I mostly run into this with people terrified of pressing the wrong thing and breaking the computer. Might be a little like how the first thing you do when you're learning to, say, kayak is to flip the boat so that you're confident you can recover from the worst case scenario.

I have broken so many computers in my life and repaired them that I am not very worried about pressing the wrong thing because I am confident I can recover from a mistake. Someone who has never repaired their own computer runs an unknown (to them) risk of being wrong that would force them to take their computer to an actual store and the hard drive probably being erased without asking.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by wheelie_boy on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:13PM (#24463604)
Always reading the dialog boxes is usually a very good idea, but I've also seen that strategy backfire.

Specifically, I was once trying to help a CS professor register a new domain name. This was at some low-cost registrar and there were 6 pages of upsells on the way to checkout. For whatever reason, he was definitely taking his time reading the entire pitch, and eventually I had to step in and click 'next' several times. "No, you don't need a new virus scanner as part of your domain name purchase. No you don't need a company to submit your new domain name to search engines. No you don't need SEO services. ..."

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by zeeZ on Sunday September 13, 2020 @05:28PM (#24464085)
Chances are it you actually read though the terms and conditions before clicking the checkbox, your session will have timed out and you'll have to start over.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by scubbo on Sunday September 13, 2020 @05:26PM (#24464074)
> I compulsively read whatever you put in front of me

I'm going through a contract-heavy legal process right now, and it is amazing how strongly the agents/lawyers/etc. involved in the process clearly expect me to just sign without reading. Obviously they're not pressuring me not to read it, but the implied expectations of time/effort that it should take is much less than necessary.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by sanderjd on Sunday September 13, 2020 @05:33PM (#24464116)
Yep, I always have this with mortgages. People have been pretty good about agreeing to send me the documents the night before so that I can actually read them. But I also at least skim them before signing to make sure they say the same thing they did the night before. I haven't found anything objectionable, so maybe the rational thing to do would actually be to just do what everyone else does and sign based on what the person says they say.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by perl4ever on Sunday September 13, 2020 @06:32PM (#24464485)
Did you know that hospitals and urgent care providers are now having you sign agreements you don't even see? They say "ok, you need to sign the general release"..."now you need to sign that we can bill your insurance company"... and it's entirely verbal/on faith. You're just signing an electronic pad that displays no information.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by smichel17 on Sunday September 13, 2020 @07:54PM (#24464984)
Any lawyers around who could discuss how enforceable this kind of thing is(n't)? I'd assume at the least it's treated like a contract of adhesion -- what about how it's handled compared to verbal contracts?
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by sanderjd on Sunday September 13, 2020 @08:44PM (#24465392)
The ones I say explicitly say that you're signature acknowledges that you've read the policy. You have to ask to see it before signing. It feels skeevy to me to be sure but honestly it's not all that different from signing something you have been given but still haven't read.

Edit to add: also, I've seen this in more places than just health care.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by perl4ever on Sunday September 13, 2020 @11:03PM (#24466334)
Nope. No verbal or written statement about a written policy being read or existing. I don't know what happens if you demand to see one, but one isn't offered at all. There's no fine print on the display saying you have read anything. It's just verbally "sign for this" and you do. Yet they don't condense it down to one signature.

I complained and was ignored in the same way people are ignored when they complain about the wait in the ER or ask how much treatment will cost.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by dayjobpork on Sunday September 13, 2020 @05:22PM (#24464047)
See I find this an example of a user being lazy, and I experience this frequently. They are not even bothering to read what the computer is saying, just giving up and knowing/assuming that you will figure it out. They don't value your time, and cannot be bothered to expend the slightest effort to solve their own problem.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by II2II on Sunday September 13, 2020 @05:40PM (#24464163)
It is easy for those who are comfortable with computers to read an error message then determine whether we can solve the problem on our own or request support.

For people who are not comfortable with computers, they just see an error message and expect it to be something that they cannot handle.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by Aeolun on Sunday September 13, 2020 @07:55PM (#24465002)
Which is dumb. 80% of error messages are likely something they are perfectly equiped to handle.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by II2II on Monday September 14, 2020 @10:14AM (#24470388)
Perhaps, but it is that 20% of error messages that leave people believing that they are unable to handle the other 80%.

Part of the problem is how error messages are presented. A lot of software uses tools like modal dialog boxes to present everything from "a file with that name already exists" to "the file cannot be written". The former can easily be handled. The latter may involve a call to technical support (and part of the reason for that is the ambiguity of the error message).

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by setr on Sunday September 13, 2020 @08:43PM (#24465382)
I always have the same problem with novice developers too --

"Hi"

?

"I have an error"

What error?

"It won't compile"

Whats the error message?

"Function lib.X not found"

Did you import the library?

"No"

Import it

"It worked"

Most everyone seems to be trained to ignore error messages, regardless of background. Expecting them to go the next step and google the error is a lost cause, regardless of background. Even 5yr devs sometimes need to be taught this... I'm still not clear why, but it feels like people are being trained to use computers this way -- i just can't figure out when, why and who's doing this mis-training

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by snegu on Sunday September 13, 2020 @09:26PM (#24465704)
This is likely because many error messages are not helpful. Blame all the developers who just put an error code in their error messages and called it a day.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by selftest on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:23PM (#24463680)
I'm the same way. Modern UI is often (seemingly) purposely obtuse. It's maddening. It (the UI) doesn't seem to respect people who read the information given to them by actually presenting that information. I shouldn't have to click through a dozen links to get to documentation.

A big frustration of mine is sites/apps that bury their support info. If I need support, I'd like support. Expose your FAQ to me, point me towards some forums, but don't bury the actual contact info somewhere like the footer, or worse, omit it completely. If I type my problem into the supplied form and the chatbot that opens up asks me to type that info again (often after a redirect where the session info gets overwritten so that I can't even copy-paste my already written text) I'm much more likely to be unnecessarily rude to the support person in the other side... Assuming it's a person and not the aforementioned chatbot.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by p1necone on Sunday September 13, 2020 @05:25PM (#24464067)
You're being overly generous. If some feature that usually works suddenly stops working and now there's some text on the screen instead, and you go all the way to ringing up a family member for help without even reading the text then I struggle to call that anything other than "stupid and lazy".
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by jiggawatts on Sunday September 13, 2020 @08:24PM (#24465245)
Don't think for a second that IT professionals are any better.

You have no idea how many times I've seen the RDP certificate warning: "Click here to never show this again."

Nope, no. Nobody but me ticks that checkbox. NOBODY. It's infuriating.

That, and the VMware vSphere first-time tab that "explains what a cluster is". Click here to close and never show again.

Nope. Every time I look over the shoulder of a dedicated, full-time, VMware-certificate ESXi cluster administrator... there it is. The certificate warning. The first-time popup. Every time.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by p1necone on Monday September 14, 2020 @12:04AM (#24466643)
I'm one of those people that never checks the "click here to never show this again" box on RDP cert warnings so I'll chime in.

In my mind, I know I really should manually grab a copy of the cert from work so I'm actually certain I'm not being MITM'd, but on the other hand I know the likelihood of that being the case is pretty darn low and I'm lazy so I don't. But I make sure that warning keeps popping up because I don't want to forget that I'm doing something dangerous.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by jiggawatts on Monday September 14, 2020 @12:20AM (#24466715)
This method is much, much worse for security. It's literally the worst possible thing that you could do.

The easy way is decently secure: if you tick the checkbox, it memorises the certificate serial number for you, the same as if you had manually trusted a self-signed cert. Any change to the certificate will show the warning again. This is comparable to trusting an SSH certificate the first time you connect to a host with Putty.

The best way is to issue RDP Certificates from an Enterprise PKI: They're free, you never get warning popups ever again, and they're secure.

Your method means that if the certificate changes (due to a MitM attack), you won't notice. The warning looks the same with a new certificate as an old certificate that you didn't choose to trust. You're 100% vulnerable and you've both hidden an a warning for an actual attack and also trained yourself to ignore all such warnings.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by danaris on Monday September 14, 2020 @12:25PM (#24472006)
> The easy way is decently secure: if you tick the checkbox, it memorises the certificate serial number for you, the same as if you had manually trusted a self-signed cert. Any change to the certificate will show the warning again. This is comparable to trusting an SSH certificate the first time you connect to a host with Putty.

Then it should say so.

"Click here to never show this again"—never show for this certificate? For this connection? For any connection?

Be clear and specific, even if it takes three more words.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by p1necone on Monday September 14, 2020 @01:53AM (#24467210)
Thanks. I will rectify this now :)
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by dstroot on Sunday September 13, 2020 @03:58PM (#24463484)
This is so spot on. My family tech support goes EXACTLY like this. Once I get them to actually articulate the issue I usually just google it and after I help them I send them the google search.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by teraku on Monday September 14, 2020 @04:34AM (#24468053)
Basically me, when I tell my IT colleagues that if they just run "git status" in 99% of the cases it will tell them what to do if something didn't work "magically"...
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by jwr on Sunday September 13, 2020 @12:48PM (#24462101)
> A better model for thinking of users is to realise that they are not stupid, just busy and distracted.

I'd put it differently. Realize that your app is not the center of the world. Your users have things to do, and using your app is a small fraction of their life. Even though it might be your baby and you might be spending all of your waking ours thinking about your app, user perspective is different.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by bonoboTP on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:10PM (#24463586)
It reminds me of teachers' and professors' attitude towards their classes/courses. From their point of view, it's maybe the only thing they teach or one of 2-3 things and it's the general topic they spend all their time on. From a student's perspective it's one of many courses in various topics. They can't be expected to laser focus on just the class that you teach. But many teachers don't get this concept. They think everything revolves around their course only.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by mb7733 on Monday September 14, 2020 @10:12AM (#24470367)
That's funny, because the inverse problem exists too. Many students think that teaching is all that professors do. They assume that the prof's whole life revolves around teaching their class, when in fact the bulk of the prof's job is research, supervision and administration.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by tremon on Sunday September 13, 2020 @03:22PM (#24463225)
Or, more bluntly: realize that your app is a tool, not a goal. Tools should be predictable, reliable, and easy to use correctly.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by grugagag on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:11PM (#24463589)
And intuitive! Since apps are like a blackbox to the user, they shouldn’t do things that make the user hesitate or get confused. With feature creep most apps become an unmanageable piece of mess
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by justinclift on Monday September 14, 2020 @01:57AM (#24467224)
This is what frustrates the heck out of me when platforms decide to redo their entire user experience, just because they feel the need to "change something".

Thereby forcing all of their users to learn the new UI immediately, not even with due warning.

One or two platforms doing is in a week or so is a pain. But when lots of platforms do this in a short period of it, it can be "throw hands up in the air and do something else". :(

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by nikki93 on Sunday September 13, 2020 @12:56PM (#24462172)
Maybe the user is like a person walking down the street and your app is your kid with girl scout cookies boxes it's trying to sell, and you're helping it out. :) And it's not about the money as much as the app growing up, or something.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by notatoad on Sunday September 13, 2020 @12:59PM (#24462203)
>A better model for thinking of users is to realise that they are not stupid, just busy and distracted

but this is functionally the same thing. whether the user is an idiot giving you 100% of their mental capacity, or a genius giving you 1%, you have to make the same decisions when you're designing a product. "Users are stupid" isn't necessarily a judgemental thing meant to demean your users, just a reality that you have to accomodate the people who are going use your product in a way that's indistinguishable from a stupid person.

You can't assume that anybody will remember anything they did in a previous step, or that anybody will correctly interpret the label on a button no matter how clearly you think it is worded, or when presented with multiple options will be able to correctly choose the one they want.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by jfarmer on Sunday September 13, 2020 @01:17PM (#24462366)
The product's design is the tool you use to distinguish.

Say that, unbeknownst to you, 90% of your users are non-native English speakers. Is a non-native English speaker "stupid" because they misinterpret the simple English idioms, metaphors, and symbology sprinkled throughout your product?

A group of actually-stupid-but-native English speakers might exhibit the same behavior.

You hypothesize that you have a large percentage of non-native English speakers using your app and change the design to accomodate. Behavior improves, distinguishing the bulk of your users from merely "stupid" English speakers.

The problem is that if you conceptualize your users as "stupid" the hypothesis that something else might be going on _never even enters your head_. You never do the experiment. Or, if you do, it's not faithful to an alternative model and is basically a wild stab in the dark.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by montagg on Sunday September 13, 2020 @02:09PM (#24462732)
This is a really good point. “Stupid” is a fun and dramatic framing (I will sometimes use “drunk user” as the equivalent), but it’s also reductionist and less useful for specific design decisions. Thinking deeply about why they are operating at less than peak efficiency helps you make decisions that accommodate those reasons.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by JJMcJ on Sunday September 13, 2020 @03:52PM (#24463444)
Or sleep deprived, to be less judgemental.

Imagine your user was not able to sleep on a Trans-Pacific flight in bad weather, they have hay fever and a very sore neck.

Better yet, get user studies.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by ethbr0 on Sunday September 13, 2020 @01:16PM (#24462349)
> whether the user is an idiot giving you 100% of their mental capacity, or a genius giving you 1%, you have to make the same decisions when you're designing a product

No.

An idiot giving you 100% will never learn your product.

A genius giving you 1% will eventually develop a highly optimized way to use your product.

If we assume all users are the former, we never design for the latter. That pretty much sums up the last 20 years of de facto UX.

And if you disagree, I'd recommend you go find a call center still using mainframe apps, and watch a random sample of 100 users.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by pravus on Sunday September 13, 2020 @03:47PM (#24463403)
Completely agree and your call center example is dead on. I work in telephony and our feedback from clients is always to simplify displays and reports so that they can manage the call flows better.

It was hilarious watching some of the reactions in our team when a client gave us a screenshot that was just boxes with numbers in them arranged neatly with no more than red/yellow/green for colors. Some saw ugly... I saw enhanced productivity.

Personally I think more UI/UX designers need to spend time doing data entry with time constraints so they learn the pains of repeated useless actions and time wasting features.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by notatoad on Sunday September 13, 2020 @01:18PM (#24462367)
>eventually

perhaps, if the user is a continual user. but most users of most products are infrequent, and if your UI relies on being learned over time, it's probably not going to work for most people.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by TeMPOraL on Sunday September 13, 2020 @01:46PM (#24462573)
That only applies to... niche stores and food ordering, maybe.

If you're working on SaaS that is meant to help someone make money or work faster, there's a good chance you'll have people using your software as a part of their dayjob - i.e. 2-8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for years. If you treat your users as idiots and don't implement space for them to grow (i.e. power user features), you'll be wasting a lot of life for a lot of people (and a lot of money of their bosses).

That's a heuristic I'd like to see being used in UX design: assume your software becomes a tool in some company, and you have full-time users spending their workday on it. Design to that group.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by ethbr0 on Sunday September 13, 2020 @01:21PM (#24462394)
"Not going to work for most people" in this context feels more like "going to impact my growth metrics."

Which, yes, probably. But there are more goals in software development than hyper growth.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by TeMPOraL on Sunday September 13, 2020 @02:26PM (#24462860)
Particularly if your growth metric is number of registered users, silently ignoring those who didn't delete their account (almost nobody ever does). Following such metric prioritizes first-use experience (i.e. baiting registrations with UI glitter) over actual utility. Which is what I suspect happens a lot today (along with its related problem, optimizing for sale over continued use).
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by pravus on Sunday September 13, 2020 @03:53PM (#24463449)
What you are talking about is consumer entertainment. Even utility apps like Google Maps are something you have to learn and yes I'm tired of all the "What's new! Don't do anything until you click me!" garbage. I need the app to open, do what I want, and then close. Thank-you.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by hinkley on Sunday September 13, 2020 @01:27PM (#24462442)
It’s qualitatively different in that one assumes that your product deserves 100% of anyone’s attention and the other doesn’t.

In most situations most of the time, your code is between someone and something they want. Your main importance in their life is when you fuck it up, not when you get it right. You just aren’t that important. The user is.

Which is partly why we need books championing good design. Because good design gets out of the way, and would go mostly unnoticed if not for other designers and aficionados giving them kudos.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by Ozzie_osman on Sunday September 13, 2020 @01:38PM (#24462521)
> whether the user is an idiot giving you 100% of their mental capacity, or a genius giving you 1%, you have to make the same decisions when you're designing a product.

I disagree that you have to make the same decisions. I think you need to design your product contextually. Sometimes, users might be giving you 100% of their capacity, sometimes they will only give you 1%. It depends on context and motivation. I'm working on a personal finance app. Sometimes, users are in a "I just want to make sure that latest transaction isn't fraud"-mode and you'll have seconds of attention. But sometimes (albeit much more rarely), users are in a "I want to sit down and think about my financial future mode".

> "Users are stupid" isn't necessarily a judgemental thing...

I hope not, but unfortunately, I've often found that it is.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by oblio on Sunday September 13, 2020 @01:03PM (#24462241)
I think the idea is about developer attitudes. I've heard variations of "the user is dumb" too many times to count in the last 15 years.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by watwut on Sunday September 13, 2020 @03:14PM (#24463176)
People who think about users as idiots dismiss their issues. People who think about them as distracted change app design.

At least in my experience, the two ways of framing users lead to different behavior of development team.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by tootie on Sunday September 13, 2020 @02:37PM (#24462922)
You really can't bucket your users on a single mental model. It depends entirely on application and usage patterns. Daily users will become experts pretty quickly and look for fast, simple design. Doubly so if it's a line of business application with a captive audience (like a POS interface). Something like my homeowner insurance is a site I log in to like once a year. I'm not ever going to even remember my password let alone how to do anything without giant, colorful buttons leading me along. This is why UX is a profession.

The seminal work on interaction design isn't Don't Make Me Think, it's About Face. About Face makes thee general rule that you should not design for beginners or experts but for the perpetual intermediate.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by nlawalker on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:41PM (#24463805)
I can see how this breeds resentment in some contexts, though.

A developer might spend a huge amount of time and effort modeling a workflow or a process into something crisp enough for a machine to process. That might take months of what feels like pulling teeth from people to extract requirements - people who are supposed to be domain experts. By the time he's done, he probably understands everything better than the people whose job it is to use the tool - the tool that now enables them to ignore and forget about parts of their job and complete it with 10% of their attention.

"Stupid users - they barely understand their own job and I spent months learning the finest details about it to build them a tool so they can keep doing it without understanding it at all."

Not saying it's right, but I can see how it happens.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by momokoko on Sunday September 13, 2020 @02:12PM (#24462754)
> Users have tasks to concentrate on.

Right, we also need to remember that simple is not better than possible.

If your interface is too simple and feature limited that your user can not complete their task, then you have gone too far.

We want to reduce friction as much as possible while still allowing a customer to solve their problem.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by TeMPOraL on Sunday September 13, 2020 @02:28PM (#24462877)
And then we should reduce the friction further to allow the user to solve their problem as fast as possible. That means batch-processing and some other complex features. This is because it's very likely that a chunk of your users will not be solving a problem once, but will be solving 200 identical problems a day, 5 days a week, for a year.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by _tulpa on Sunday September 13, 2020 @02:39PM (#24462935)
> simple is not better than possible.

Dang, that's just the most perfectly succinct phrasing of (an answer to) my pet hate in software/developer attitude/life in general.

But it also seems that the 'possible' facet is just nowhere near as financially lucrative as 'simple'.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by buzzwordninja on Sunday September 13, 2020 @03:55PM (#24463463)
It depends. Mostly on what kind of users you might have.

If the underlying model is very powerful but so complicated that it's very difficult to convey it to anyone, is it of any use? "Financially lucrative" in that case is simply a proxy for "can I get anyone go understand what is even going on?"

I've built an online pub quiz, and I'm doing as much hallway usability testing (in the Zoom hallway) as I can. Early on, every single one ended up with me changing things from being more flexible and powerful to being simpler. Either the underlying model, or just what is being presented/allowed in the user interface at any given time.

There is just no point in trying to provide lots of options instead of a well thought out middle-of-the-road path of obvious next steps if no-one will be able to get around to doing what they came for. People can't become power users if they aren't users.

UX design is so hard, but luckily it's also very interesting :)

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by phkahler on Sunday September 13, 2020 @02:35PM (#24462907)
>> Users aren't thinking about your app when they use it.

Yep. It's probably over used as an example, but I always come back to pinch-zoom. People don't care about your UI, the best you can let them do is directly manipulate their data. Anything else is a compromise. That compromise is always going to be there, but we need to minimize it.

MS Office has turned into a sort of industrial machine with a control panel. You can do anything to your data if you know what sequence of buttons to push to tell the machine what to do. Actually that peaked several years ago and they have been getting better about more direct access to features. OTOH they also have so much functionality that such UI will never go away completely.

On a related tangent, I feel like tools for programmers suffer even more from this. Because we're used to editing text files to get things done, the notion of editing a config file or writing a script to get something to do what you want doesn't seem that unreasonable to software developers. Maybe it should.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by jchw on Sunday September 13, 2020 @02:42PM (#24462955)
Programming tools should work this way because we write code; config files are effectively code that doesn't execute (or sometimes does.) A lot of the config files we use (think stuff like: gitignore, eslint/babel configuration, Dockerfiles, package.toml, etc.) we version into source control so that we can track changes over time. I can't think of a good UI that would make editing these files better; VSCode probably has done the best by providing autocompletion in YAML and JSON files using JSONSchema.

Text files aren't perfect, but they're hard to beat. It's not like the hardest part of programming is actually syntax, anyways. You can always improve on this by providing better assisted editing.

If there's anything I'd actually want it would be for software to have pluggable configuration so I can instruct it to pull its configuration from a database or something along those lines.

edit: and on that note, it’s probably the command line interface that actually would strongly benefit from some consideration. CLI arguments are currently a flat unstructured list... but almost everything at least has key value pairs.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by hansvm on Sunday September 13, 2020 @03:51PM (#24463435)
> I can't think of a good UI that would make editing these files better

Alternative views into those same text files would be nice. You could color-code the type of a snippet (yaml string/float issues) or nested blocks. You could offer a graph view of dependencies (context-dependent -- could be services, function calls, modules, docker base images, etc...).

Text files are nice (and I've yet to see anything that would be a good replacement for most uses), but that doesn't mean we can't offer extra tooling/views into that data when it would be more convenient.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:27PM (#24463716)
Now tell us what graphical interface developers spend their time thinking about.

Are they real world problems like the examples given above.

What is more important.

Someone once said the best interface is no interface.

If I do not have to think about an "interface", if the program is doing its job without requiring interaction, then that is more time I have to focus on what is important.

Not all software can be like this but a lot can. As the article indicates, there is an enormous amount of "forced interaction" in today's computers. This is in part because companies that employ interface developers rely on the online advertising business to make money.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by rkagerer on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:40PM (#24463801)
That person in MSWord isn't thinking about the ribbon bar

I think about it every time I'm forced to use it. I think about how much I hate it, how constantly clicking between tabs slows me down, and how much more productive I was without it.

For mainly this reason, I still use Word 2003 and have no plans to switch until the fad passes and someone in UI at Microsoft finally stops designing for the lowest common denominator and remembers the point of toolbars wasn't to replace menus, but rather to put commonly used functions one click away.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by Paianni on Sunday September 13, 2020 @05:17PM (#24464016)
I would think using Office 2003 on an internet-connected machine would be a bit of a liability these days...
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by rkagerer on Sunday September 13, 2020 @11:09PM (#24466369)
Third party tools like 0patch help. Obviously so do practices like sensible firewall settings and not opening attachments you don't trust.

I have the latest version of Office installed for when it's needed, I simply prefer doing my serious Word work in '03.

I don't think I'd hold up any version of Office as the paradigm of "internet safe" software.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by agumonkey on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:03PM (#24463522)
busy, distracted, obliged and not taught

a recipe for rote disaster

I'm a dev and I cannot cringe at a user failure to operate a piece of software.

Even those with a solid enough mind and education will have issues, french teacher told me she couldn't bear the improper use of verbs and nouns in her daily usage. It's a gigantic mess.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by dspillett on Sunday September 13, 2020 @02:18PM (#24462799)
> realise that they are not stupid, just busy and distracted.

Though from a practical PoV those two states are often hard to distinguish. Very similar hand-holding is required in each case.

> Users have tasks to concentrate on. They don't have the attention left over to deal with your app's crappy UI.

This is very true. We provide accountability/competence/compliance management software for regulated industries (mainly savings and investment banking ATM) and for most of our users touching our software is a secondary task linked to their main roles. Even the day-to-day admins and UAT testers for new releases, are seconded from other areas or worse effectively being asked to use our software on top of their usual roles (an extra task given with no extra time assigned or other tasks paused).

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by grishka on Sunday September 13, 2020 @06:07PM (#24464333)
A good UI is the one that the user doesn't notice. That means it has to be intuitive and consistent, and shouldn't ever distract the user.

Distractions include sudden popups that aren't the result of an immediately preceding interaction (looking at you, iOS). And those login forms. No one ever wants to see a login form for something they've already logged into from this browser/device.

Also, it might seem silly to point out, but use your goddamn product yourself the way your users would. That alone really helps with many UI/UX issues.

Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by jake_morrison on Monday September 14, 2020 @02:38AM (#24467442)
Years ago I was switching my father from DOS to Windows. He was resisting learning about the computer. Not because he was stupid, he has a PhD from Harvard. He was busy trying to consolidate his understanding of 1000 years of English literature and move the field forward. He needed the computer to write with, and was willing to learn how to do that. Everything else was a distraction.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by goto11 on Monday September 14, 2020 @06:46AM (#24468688)
The article talks about respecting users but at the same time describes using Facebook as "mindlessly scrolling through feeds of what can most easily be described as garbage content". There is a big disconnect here. If people are actually smart and able to make their own decisions, maybe there is something more to Facebook than "mindless scrolling"?
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by burtonator on Sunday September 13, 2020 @05:32PM (#24464113)
I'm taking the "minimum cognition principle" ... the least time required to make a decision the better. It's like riding a bike - if you had to think about it you might get in an accident.
Re:Disrespectful Design – Users aren’t stupid or lazy by outericky on Sunday September 13, 2020 @02:18PM (#24462795)
> Users have tasks to concentrate on. They don't have the attention left over to deal with your app's crappy UI.

Therefore, it shouldn't distract from the task at hand.