News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by phren0logy on Monday August 31, 2020 @06:17PM (#24336461)
It's among the least bad, but nobody would ever mistake it for software sold to general consumers in this century. I know it's complex and specialized, but so are IDEs, and those are (in my limited use and understanding of them) worlds better in their engineering.

That said, I'm not crazy about how actively Epic appears have tried to keep medical records created in Epic locked in to Epic.

The spirit, if not the letter, of the legislation requiring a move to electronic records was due to record portability. From where I stand, they have actively prevented that (or at a very minimum sandbagged) to expand their market share.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by phobosanomaly on Monday August 31, 2020 @07:34PM (#24336985)
Another unintended consequence of this is that it makes it extremely difficult for doctors and nurses to pull data to do basic research or look at patient outcomes.

For example, if you wanted to see what the outcomes of giving a specific drug at a specific dose to a specific group of patients at your hospital was, you're in for a real fun time manually copy-and-pasting thousands of entries from the EMR to a spreadsheet.

Now more than ever it is important to look at data relating to patient outcomes with various COVID treatments that haven't been thoroughly vetted yet. But, guess why your local hospital isn't doing anything like that? Because what should be a simple 3-hour exploratory data analysis that can be breezed through IRB now has to involve a budget component of hiring a professional copy-paste person. Can't even use med students to do it anymore because they aren't allowed to hang around the hospital due to COVID, and you can't access those records remote due to HIPAA.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by josephpmay on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:40PM (#24337346)
That’s just completely untrue. First of all, Epic has a built in tool called Slicer Dicer for clinicians to perform pretty complex population data analysis without having to do any database queries. Second, every healthcare organization extracts much of their patient data to a data warehouse where you can perform direct SQL calls on it.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by throwaway4220 on Monday August 31, 2020 @10:38PM (#24338022)
MD here too. I encourage you to stop and think about your defensive reaction to a tool you know well that's designed for exactly the purpose the client is looking for. OP, who I wager uses Epic every weekday for 5+ hours, has no idea about this tool and probably wishes existed (I'm guessing). It's probably not included in their software contract, or there are unnecessary HIPAA issues, or the IT person is not competent. Just some of the many issues.

On the radiology side, I know there are extensions and tools for PACS that the vendors can't be bothered to come explain/train, even though the company sold it to the hospital. It's like pulling teeth.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by josephpmay on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @09:30AM (#24341521)
Valid point. My defensiveness was less directed towards OP's specific scenario but rather to the blanket statement that EHRs are broken in this way, when there are specific and high-quality tools designed specifically for data analysis. A lot of people, including myself, tend to put a lot of faith in HN comments about industries that we are not personally familiar with, and someone reading OP's comment would likely get the wrong impression about the state of the medical records industry.

There are certainly a million reasons why a doctor may not have access to or be able to use tools like Slicer Dicer, but most of those come down mainly to hospital policy. Amount and quality of training is certainly the biggest differentiation between clinician who are satisfied with Epic and those that hate it.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by phobosanomaly on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @11:02AM (#24342519)
You are correct, I made a blanket statement based on what was apparently incorrect information. But, I'm glad I made it on HN, because I went from having an incorrect assumption to having a solution!

So, thank you!

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by phobosanomaly on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:48PM (#24337403)
Thank you very much for sharing that. I'll look into it more. The clinicians (head of trauma Evidence-Based Medicine as well as the head of the trauma department overall) I have talked to at my non-academic Level II trauma center do not have any clue this exists. They are currently exporting thousands of records by hand.

Edit: Do you know offhand of a good guide to SlicerDicer I can share with them? I will google around, but if you had something you personally liked?

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by thesishelp on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:51AM (#24338943)
There's still likely some good reason to do that work manually. The quality of data entry into EMRs is often poor, especially when it comes to event or time data that's not just numeric bloodwork. Imagine that at a random physicals date your patient was suddenly was 155kg and 65cm tall. Or for another example, having someone be inaccurately be diagnosed as having new onset diabetes after transplant, despite them having DM for several years prior. People switch up entry fields, inaccurately assess or diagnose patients all the time--generally because of the sheer variety of ways in which data can be screwed up, only a person can notice those oddities (or write a little script to fix them).

At population levels I could concede that these errors may well be inconsequential though.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by josephpmay on Monday August 31, 2020 @09:29PM (#24337633)
I work at Epic, so the resources I have are all internal training/document. That being said, the best way to learn it is probably to have someone who’s an expert in it, ideally another doctor, walk them through it. If you want, I can see if I can find some specific customer-facing documents/training to link them to.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by owowow on Monday August 31, 2020 @09:52PM (#24337768)
Lack of public documentation has to be my #1 pain point with proprietary software over the years.

Especially in the EMR space, putting up barriers to access basic documentation is quite unreasonable.

Public documentation is not going to suddenly allow your competition to gain an advantage, while your own firm benefits from users being able to easily google and get authoritative answers from your own official documentation.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by willcipriano on Monday August 31, 2020 @09:42PM (#24337705)
> and you can't access those records remote due to HIPAA.

The person who told you that is misinformed. I have personally worked on products that allow physicians and staff to access patient records remotely in a safe and fully HIPAA compliant manner. It's incredibly common.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by phobosanomaly on Monday August 31, 2020 @09:49PM (#24337741)
Sorry, I worded that poorly. I meant the med students doing the grunt work.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by nradov on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @09:52AM (#24341701)
Most EHRs now have standard HL7 FHIR APIs which would allow remotely querying that data.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by phobosanomaly on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @11:00AM (#24342493)
Thanks for the heads-up!

Do you know of a good way to leverage this API in a way that can be directly used by clinicians to pull and work with data?

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by nradov on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:11PM (#24344073)
You'll have to start by finding the FHIR web service endpoint URL for your EHR instance, as well as appropriate authentication credentials.

Client applications can be written using the HAPI FHIR library.

https://hapifhir.io/

Then use the search operation to find the resources you need.

http://www.hl7.org/fhir/search.html

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by nradov on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:11PM (#24337193)
The latest version of Epic has fairly complete record portability. Is it missing anything specific?

https://open.epic.com/

I think EHR vendors sometimes get unfairly blamed. The fault often lies with provider organizations who simply haven't turned on the available functionality.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by odyssey7 on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:36PM (#24337320)
Why do I feel stressed out visiting this link on desktop? Perhaps someone who's good at UX could share a few thoughts?
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by inreverse on Monday August 31, 2020 @10:16PM (#24337909)
Not good at UX but the landing page is not following some basic conventions. The multiple saturated background colours are especially stressful.

Conventions which would help:

- add vertical padding between elements

- simplify illustrations or using icons

- use a consistent color palette

- use color sparingly

- at least one of black text and white background should be off-black or off-white respectively

- cookie request background should be a neutral color rather than yellow

- cookie request should be at the bottom of the screen rather than the top

- choose one hover event: animate the illustration or underline the text

- the footer should be at least 3 times the height

- replace "over the last year as of date" with "each year" then restore standard font weight

Fixing all of the above should take about an hour.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by nradov on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:36AM (#24338879)
I don't understand. How can colors be stressful?
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by hanklazard on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:58PM (#24337473)
Ha, exactly. UI/UX is precisely the area where Epic fails the most. I am not an expert in this area, but in my every day use, I can only describe the Epic style of UX as "vomit all information onto the screen at once."
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by nradov on Monday August 31, 2020 @09:04PM (#24337501)
Given a choice, clinicians would usually rather have maximum information density to avoid clicking around for what they need.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by Shared404 on Monday August 31, 2020 @09:42PM (#24337704)
Some better organization to the information would be nice though.

Edit: Not a doctor/in health care. Just basing this on the link above.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by nradov on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:35AM (#24338874)
Better how?
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by Shared404 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @02:21AM (#24339051)
Looking at the website right now, I see three different horizontal arrangements of links.

Of these links, there are four duplicate pairs, at least. Two of these sets of pairs lead to indistinctly named pages (/Home/InteroperabilityGuide and /Home/Interoperate)

I would start by having all of these links be at the top, and adding some descriptive text to each of the fields in the main body, as opposed to meaningless graphics/marketing numbers.

Addendum: Also, I wouldn't want to do the split in thirds thing that occupies the majority of the page. Each of those can get a description of at least a paragraph, and go one after the other. If there's not enough info to fill a paragraph, then they probably need to be merged.

Edit: ambiguously -> indistinctly

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by fivre on Monday August 31, 2020 @11:15PM (#24338195)
This one isn't entirely their fault--it's legitimately a customer demand they've acquiesced to, and while they bear some blame for doing so, they're not the root of the issue there, users are.

There's a legitimate case for high-density, specialized interfaces that aren't focused on usability in the sense that you might find in more consumer-targeted software: the end users of these systems don't necessarily need something that's easy to learn or that presents only important info up front. Arguably they need the opposite: something that packs a lot of complex functionality and dense information into a small space is _good_ when your users are highly-specialized and frequently run through similar complex workflows. It's akin to a phone camera interface and a camera designed for professional photographers: the former eschews having ALL THE THINGS for accessibility, whereas the latter eschews accessibility for high info density and rapid access to tools because its users are okay putting in the time to learn something complex when getting over the learning curve will afford them a high degree of control and quick feedback.

Where things break down is customizability: expert tools, and especially expert software tools, suffer from "the user knows best, they can design their own UX" syndrome: this is true to a degree, but in the case of shared tools oft turns into one user (team lead X, who's been doing this shit for years! they know their shit!) designing something that works for them, or that replicates an existing workflow from elsewhere (just make it EXACTLY like the old paper charts! why would you do anything else? what do you mean the design considerations for a paper system might not perfectly transfer to a computer system?) in total ignorance of things they fail to do well. Computer systems, I think as an artifact of their relative novelty, lead users to believe they're experts in UX design by virtue of having (a) experience in the field the system serves and (b) having used a computer interface at some point in the past (and, in America, (c), broader cultural hubris about individual competency across disciplines based on competency in some unrelated highly-skilled field). Designing a truly good interface requires a dialog between user and designer, but we too often tend towards a "skilled user must be right, they're good at SOMETHING and therefore good at EVERYTHING" mindset. Enterprise software design provides customizability to a fault--we hear users want it, don't have enough time to actually sit down and try workflows with them, and they say they're skilled enough to do it themselves independently, so let em have at it.

I sometimes wonder what it'd be like in a world where "cars" were sold to ENTERPRISE DRIVING CABALS, full of VERY SKILLED DRIVERS, where the "car" in question ended up being a pile of sheet metal and control surfaces, a collection of engine and power train components, a big tub of asphalt, and a rough map of places people need to go, entrusted to a multitude of very experienced horse carriage drivers who each sought out to build their own bespoke personal vehicles and interstate highway system as they saw fit based on their own intuition and cunning, with nary a notion of needing to design something that worked for anyone else or wanting to take advantage of the new tech's more novel features. I doubt it would be a good one, but it would probably be hilarious to look at having driven on a somewhat saner system in a more thoughtfully designed vehicle.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by Aeolun on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @05:50AM (#24340029)
Maybe the rainbow spacing?
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by conanbatt on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @12:30AM (#24338569)
Wait until you find out a same hospital runs multiple versions of epic that are barely interoperable between each other.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by nradov on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @12:59AM (#24338698)
Certainly that's an issue, but again you can't really blame the vendors if providers make extensive customizations to EHRs and then refuse to commit IT resources toward rolling out version upgrades.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by nikisweeting on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @10:04AM (#24341803)
Good luck actually using that, most deployments have the open-operability stuff specifically disabled, and it required many layers of bureaucracy to get it enabled and have keys issued.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by nimish on Monday August 31, 2020 @08:08PM (#24337182)
Thankfully, TEFCA was implemented anyway, and is still on schedule.

We'll see what it works out to in practice. But data sharing is definitely still possible, today, even with Epic (they are quite good actually). You are limited to certain reasons but they are pretty broad.

Full disclosure: I work on this full time. It is a strange world, that works on its own standards and practices for good and bad reasons.