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Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by wombatmobile on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @08:07AM (#24281651)
If we had a justice system, that $10.8 billion would be recoverable, and used to try to rehabilitate the victims.

But we don't have a justice system. We have a legal system, and a financial system.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by shrubble on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @08:58AM (#24281994)
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by murbard2 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:10AM (#24283140)
Bastiat is specifically referring to rent seeking, occupational licensing, protectionism, etc.

The Bastiat quote is on point if your criticism of Purdue Pharma is that it profited from the medical licensing laws and drug prohibition laws that unfairly proscribes teenagers from buying madak cigarettes on the free market.

If the criticism is merely that they made money selling addictive drugs, this really isn't what the quote is about.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by Retric on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:58AM (#24283673)
a legal system that authorizes it

They did not make billions from selling yet another opioid of which there are dozens available cheaply. They made billions by subverting the medical system largely though completely legal means. Essentially they sold yet another synthetic street drug through Doctors rather than on street corners. And this worked because they jumped through the correct hoops and advertised in the correct manner.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by Nasrudith on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:01PM (#24287219)
That mischaracterizes street drugs in production quality, goal, and financial model. Viagra is closer to the model of endorsed recreational usage.

If they went and produced 'Oxycotin gets you high and it is legal!' like a head shop the operation would have not reached multimillion dollar size before it got cracked down.

Jumping through the hoops is the part the system understands as important though.

Those two differences although irrelevant to end outcome being bad and condemnable are pretty damn big distinctions akin to claiming you "unleashed a savage wolf to attack unsuspecting children" when you sold out a pit bull puppy who was sourced from a dog fighting ring and the dog mauled a kid who yanked on his tail.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by Retric on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:14PM (#24287349)
OxyContin was a massive street drug as it is and was literally sold on the street in massive quantities. The additional legal channel for the identical substance from the same manufacturer is both a legal and illegal at the same time. Which is why Bastiat‘s quote is so interesting in this context.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by kaesar14 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:42AM (#24283477)
Does it matter what the original intention of the quote is, if it perfectly captures the spirit of the current injustice?
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by bluntfang on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:30AM (#24282805)
I've been thinking about this a lot, and really believe America was founded on "breaking the rules" and has had really great successes, but really awful consequences. Specific to the pandemic, no one wants to wear a mask. We've been conditioned to believe that breaking the rules (ie disruption) is a good way to move forward.

Outside the pandemic, we see oil companies and other manufactures move their operations overseas to countries without power or understanding that the earth is being pillaged, or that the big company is there because they don't have modern labor laws or laws that protect their environment.

Hell, the amount of beer cans on the side of the road in my suburban neighborhood and surrounding parks areas indicates that there's a portion of the population that can't handle not drinking and driving.

I wonder if this is specific to America/capitalism, but I don't really have a frame of reference for other cultures that champion values like community over the individual, following the rules, etc.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by ashtonkem on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:56AM (#24283022)
> Specific to the pandemic, no one wants to wear a mask.

This is another one of those situations where the crazies are driving the conversation, because they are much louder than their actual portion of the population. According to Gallup the portion of their panel who “never” wear a mask outside of their home is 10%, while those who “rarely” wear a mask is 2%.

The vast majority of the population wears masks “always” (50%), “very often” (27%), or at least “sometimes” (11%). The vast majority of us are complying with mask regulations; we’re just not making a lot of noise about it.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by EForEndeavour on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:50AM (#24283559)
Are those Gallup results national-level? If so, then we all know that the 12% of "never or rarely" mask-wearers are unevenly distributed.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by MegaButts on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:33PM (#24284086)
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by anigbrowl on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:23PM (#24285532)
That's a nice sentiment, but it's built on the idea that one should just ignore the crazies and they'll automatically be marginalized. It doesn't address the situation where one big group decides to weaponize its finge contingent, or where an angry fringe forces itself into what was intended to be a less heated conversations, as in this recent example: https://www.npr.org/2020/08/25/905785548/unmasked-protesters...

They repeated the stunt approximately yesterday but one of the organizers was arrested this time; he handcuffed himself to a chair but didn't consider that it was on wheels, so they just rolled him out of the building. https://www.npr.org/2020/08/25/906046911/ammon-bundy-is-arre...

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by ashtonkem on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:02PM (#24285977)
It’s only tangentially related to the point you’re making, but I think it’s hilarious the difference between how tough Bundy thought he was being, and the sad image of him being wheeled out of the legislature on the cheapest office chair Office Depot has to offer. He looks like a child that’s just realizing that holding his breath might not be an effective way to get what it wants.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by bluntfang on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:09AM (#24283130)
while the 12% that never/rarely wear a mask reflects your "vast majority of the population wears masks" statement, 12% is very significant.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by itronitron on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:52PM (#24284319)
A lot of US history boils down to criminals and cult leaders, whereas Europe is mostly about spoiled brats.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by Dirlewanger on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:52AM (#24282988)
Interesting take. I've always held that Americans only care about those that they can see from the edge of their property line (neighbors and whatnot). Everyone else? Fuck em. Distrust of all forms of government is practically bred into us, and it shows at all levels. Corporations have pretty much filled that power vacuum.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by ryandrake on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:57AM (#24283029)
Plus, we Americans embrace or at least excuse this corporate power. Elected government tries to control what we can say online? Censorship! Overreach! Unaccountable Facebook and Twitter try to control what we say online? Yes, please! No problem! If you don't like it, leave! It's not censorship because corporate power is doing it rather than government power!
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by cooljacob204 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:00AM (#24283058)
While I somewhat agree with the sentiment, there is a big difference between our government which has the power to take away our rights and a corporation censoring us.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by bluntfang on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:11AM (#24283150)
Is there a big difference though? Especially considering we got Zucked into believing that TikTok needs to be banned/sold to an American company?
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by TT3351 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:37PM (#24284925)
Wilding of America by Charles Derber is one text on this subject. It's an interesting theory. In another interpretation, the end of the frontier has also meant that the barbarism and roguery once relegated to the periphery of the country is now omnipresent.
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Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by spaceprison on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:29AM (#24282789)
The fact that they may be of Jewish heritage and are being criticised doesn't make the quote anti-semitic.

This family made billions as opium dealers whose impact has been seen nationwide. But since it was 'just business' they get to turn a blind eye to the impact.

I understood the quote to be a comment on the idea that once morality free enrichment becomes codified into law what would seem to be morally 'wrong' is justified and even looks 'good' since what they are doing is legal.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by metaloqui on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:17AM (#24282673)
How did you manage to connect that to antisemitism?
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by zentiggr on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:40AM (#24282894)
Looks trolly.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by justwalt on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:05PM (#24283772)
I think it’s an attempt to quote American Psycho, although it’s slightly wrong.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by MRantiHATE on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:49AM (#24282964)
What other "groups" are the Sacklers a member of?
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:53AM (#24282993)
> What other "groups" are the Sacklers a member of?

I took it to be a criticism of American culture.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by rscho on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:54AM (#24283011)
Rich people. They come in all shape and size.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:27AM (#24282244)
> If we had a justice system, that $10.8 billion would be recoverable

We’re in the midst of a series of lawsuits and criminal probes seeking to do exactly that. When public pressure rushes prosecutors, we get nonsense like Arizona getting rejected for original jurisdiction by SCOTUS.

We have due process. Not mob rule.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by cultus on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:32AM (#24282278)
Much of the money is diffucult to recover by being tied up in byzantine arrangements of LLCs and overseas accounts. That's generally how the rich avoid paying taxes as well.

We have due process for the privileged. Tell all of the poor defendants who have been held in Rikers for over a year without a trial that they have due process.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:42AM (#24282348)
> Much of the money is diffucult to recover by being tied up in byzantine arrangements of LLCs and overseas accounts

Yet this reporter was able to assemble the trail from court documents.

For every person creating Byzantine structures there are several adept at untangling them.

> Tell all of the poor defendants who have been held in Rikers for over a year without a trial

Not arguing that they aren’t getting an advantage. Just that there is zero evidence so far that they’re going to get away with it.

Also, New York has abolished cash bail. If someone is in pre-trial detention, it’s because they were deemed to be a flight risk. Not because they couldn’t afford bail. (EDIT: Never mind, we rolled back most of the changes in April after a purported crime surge)

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by stefan_ on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:57AM (#24282503)
"search warrant sacklers" 0 results

It's hard to make a case for something being prosecuted in good faith if there is never any attempt at using the tools that are otherwise so vastly abused in prosecuting the most meaningless "crimes".

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by stallmanite on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:04PM (#24284487)
Very good point. People suspected of far less serious crimes based on far more tenuous “evidence” get their door kicked in, their kids rooms flashbanged, dogs shot, etc.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by Frondo on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:22AM (#24282719)
New York has not eliminated cash bail.

https://www.google.com/search?q=new+york+cash+bail

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by anm89 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:22AM (#24283259)
Ok so maybe improve the laws instead of burning down the entire legal system? I mean even if you want to burn down the entire legal system you are never going to get that without a very bloody revolution.
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Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by edgyquant on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:42AM (#24282913)
Both of those predate the abolition of slavery
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by casraso on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @08:26AM (#24281754)
This is why I am puzzled when people say 'you should fight your battles in the courts, not through protests'. It has always been about who can afford better lawyers, who can win the war of attrition, and a whole lot of luck along the way. Quite a few articles have showed up on HN the past week that reinforce this.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by zimpenfish on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @08:28AM (#24281763)
I think, generally, the people saying that are the ones who have the advantage when it comes to court battles...
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by 082349872349872 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:11AM (#24282116)
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by zimpenfish on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:46AM (#24282382)
Ha, perfect, thanks.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by WJW on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:09AM (#24282096)
Fighting battles through protests seems like it is mainly a case of who can afford better PR companies, win the war of attrition and has a whole lot of luck along the way. In addition, at least with a court case you can be sure public opinion doesn't just forget about it in a few months and moves on to the next hot item to protest.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by me_me_me on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:23AM (#24282205)
Yeah, cuz that how every social change occurred in the world. Via two people talking in the room...

Give me a break, legal system never changes itself.

From Ghandi, Bolshevik revolution, Solidarity, French revolution to MLK.

Change only occurs due to mass civil dissonance or armed revolutions.

Never because you talk in a court and all people in power agreed you make sense.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by WJW on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:44AM (#24282357)
You're arguing a different point than I made. Legal systems are as averse to change as the large masses of society (ie very averse). They do move eventually btw, but it's more on the scale of decades than months.

What I was getting at is that protesting is not a very reliable way to effect change either. The "other side" of any protest is also trying to change the narrative and can often just wait out the protests. Look at how the various Occupy movements eventually dissolved after a few months because they weren't getting anywhere. Even the "main" camp (if one can talk about such a thing with Occupy) was eventually cleared by the police and didn't bother reforming somewhere else anymore. The gilets jaunes in France are currently experiencing the same problem.

I'd be quite interested in a way to reliably bring about societal change in a reasonable amount of time and in a morally defensible way, but I have not found any yet. Since philosophers have been debating this since the days of the ancient Greeks I'm a bit doubtful that this is the time when we'll finally figure it out.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by shirakawasuna on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:26PM (#24285572)
Protesting is very effective when you do actual direct action and civil disobedience. Americans have gotten used to running ignorable police-sanctioned parades and calling them protests.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by shirakawasuna on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:25PM (#24285555)
The court case is capital fighting capital. If it's the government, then it's the public's capital vs. private capital. The government is often at a disadvantage in this situation due to conflicts of interest and concerns over funds, as private capital is often far richer than anything the government can put forward.

Proper protests etc. are direct action by the people against capital. There are still disadvantages, but they can be drowned out by simple numbers.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by autisticcurio on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:15AM (#24282658)
If the system was honest, everyone would be taught at least the basics about law, medicine and finance, but you dont, you get taught enough to be a slave.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by Nasrudith on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:12PM (#24287327)
They are taught - they just don't pay attention or remember the "boring stuff we will never use" and then after going with the flow for decades with no forward thinking look for somebody to blame for their own failures.

Seriously, all of those who goofed off in home ec and math complaining years later that they don't know how to cook or balance a checkbook.

The immediate resources were often subpar I will admit but don't say you weren't taught.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by autisticcurio on Thursday August 27, 2020 @11:05AM (#24294387)
You are making excuses for teacher's & parents failings to teach so that someone understands the lesson. You are also by definition accepting that discrimination is essential for a successful society. My issue is where the state, parents want authority over someone but dont perform their basic requirements properly. Alot of people are stupid for even accepting the failings and accepting of the authority these entities have over people.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by dqpb on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:21PM (#24286210)
Everyone should teach themselves the basics of law, medicine, finance.

Its easy to start. Just pick up some textbooks.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by autisticcurio on Thursday August 27, 2020 @11:09AM (#24294427)
You have no authority with your opinion though if you are not qualified. The exam process doesnt give your papers back to check your results against the text books and what the teachers have stated, so using science and previous observations going back at least 12,000years namely the various religions invented over time, people in authority can reinforce their positions by making sure trouble makers fail even as kids.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by calvano915 on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:33AM (#24305330)
Unfortunately knowledge alone does not equal access to mechanisms of these disciplines. Without wealth, good luck using your law or medical knowledge to improve your situation aside from preventative measures. However, if knowledge is all you got, it's better than nothing at all and puts you ahead of many who won't be bothered.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by dqpb on Friday August 28, 2020 @05:48PM (#24310412)
I disagree. Knowledge is the great equalizer. You can't buy knowledge with money.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by unishark on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:42PM (#24284207)
> This is why I am puzzled when people say 'you should fight your battles in the courts, not through protests'.

Sounds like it was worded wrong (depending what you mean by "protests"). "fight your battles in the courts" is generally a statement about non-violence, meant to suggest metaphorical fighting in courts instead of actual violence.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by sunstone on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:21AM (#24282714)
According to the article $4.8bn of the $10.8bn has already been paid in tax. So that portion has been 'recovered'. The remaining $6bn though is still in play. What I don't see being mentioned is jail time. So it's not criminal to push habit forming narcotics from behind a corporate curtain?
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by penagwin on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:32AM (#24283363)
> So it's not criminal to push habit forming narcotics from behind a corporate curtain?

Basically yeah.

The "war on drugs" was pathetically laughable for reasons like this.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by unishark on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:20PM (#24283947)
They also offered a $10B settlement which is mentioned near the end of the article.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by lordnacho on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @08:41AM (#24281858)
Don't forget, there is also a reputation system. It should be made clear that whatever the justice system decides, much of their wealth has derived from an activity that was net negative for humanity.

And yes, I have heard that PR companies exist to clean up reputations, but it should be possible to at least make it clear what happened.

I think I read somewhere that a hedge fund had decided not to take an allocation from the Sacklers. That's exactly the kind of thing reputation is supposed to do. It's a blunt instrument, but people deciding to partially ostracize those who have done wrong is how things should work.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by adwi on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:05PM (#24283763)
In 5-10 years we get a longform glossy magazine profile of one of the younger Sacklers. The headline will end with a question mark.

It will talk about how the heir has become an active philanthropist, dedicating his/her life to “making things right”. It will list their accomplishments since the family was exposed. It will end with an open ended question about “the sins of our fathers.” It will really make you think.

They will spend their life slowly giving away half their fortune, one gala at a time. They will start a foundation. It will have a name not too dissimilar from a pharmaceutical brand name—meaningless but vaguely positive (too bad Altria is taken). They will max out that foundation’s board with Big Names in that world—just so long as their name isn’t Sackler.

Their investment of half of the payout they kept will grow larger than the original started at, and they’ll never pay more than a nominal dime in taxes thanks to those sweet 501(c)3 write-offs.

Their reputation will be laundered, at least enough for their checkbooks invited back to the parties. And their kids? Home free.

In a few generation the hundreds of thousands of deaths on their hands will be forgotten, except by the families of the victims that were just the cost of doing business for them.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by save_ferris on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:08AM (#24282089)
I’m sorry but this is so naive.

They were billionaires yesterday and they’re going to be billionaires tomorrow. Their reputation is going to be fine because we live in a society that absolutely worships money and those who have it. People with that kind of money can pay to scrub the internet.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by lordnacho on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:13AM (#24282135)
Everyone likes money, but that doesn't mean they respect those who have it. Do you think more highly of the oil countries that have bought a football club? In a way it's kinda satisfying that the price of respectability is so high; nobody thinks the gulf states are any better than before they decided to pay a bunch of young men exorbitant wages to kick a ball around.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by save_ferris on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:14AM (#24282643)
> Do you think more highly of the oil countries that have bought a football club?

No, but I don’t see how that deters them from misbehaving. How many billionaire oil or pharma magnates just wish they had a little more respectability? You think they care at all what people think about them? If they did, they wouldn’t have done what made them their blood money in the first place.

The Sacklers enabled the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and yet which did they choose to protect: their money or their reputation?

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:13AM (#24282126)
> People with that kind of money can pay to scrub the internet.

I'm sorry but this is so naive.

Maybe true if you've got a bit of money and a little bit of notoriety, but I don't think that it would be possible to dissociate the Sacklers' name from the opioid crisis anytime soon.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by hans1729 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:45AM (#24282372)
> I don't think that it would be possible to dissociate the Sacklers' name from the opioid crisis anytime soon

Attention is short. I wouldn't rule it out; pr goes a long way. Spend a couple million on a completely unrelated but well regarded cause of charity and folks who don't have skin in the opioid-game won't associate them for the bad they did (but for their most recent memories).

What will keep the association alive for a while will be documentaries and those who watch them, but lets be real: that's not the public.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by chopin on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:02AM (#24282559)
I dare to say that I'll never donate for a charity which takes money from the Sacklers. I will remember the name for the rest of my life.

I think this is too big to be easily cleaned up.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by save_ferris on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:19AM (#24282685)
I think you vastly overestimate the attention span of the public on this. If you asked 100 random people on the street who was behind the opioid crisis, I’d be shocked if 10 knew. You also don’t acknowledge how easy it is for the wealthy to hide their money via intermediary organizations and shell companies. It’s not like they absolutely have to donate using the Sackler name.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:41AM (#24282906)
> If you asked 100 random people on the street who was behind the opioid crisis, I’d be shocked if 10 knew.

Never argued against that, and I don't disagree with that at all. But if someone cares to do even the bare minimum of research, it's easy to come up with the Sacklers. What I am arguing against is that the Sacklers will somehow be able to use their wealth to scrub Google et al of their association with OxyContin.

> It’s not like they absolutely have to donate using the Sackler name.

For folks like them, though, then what's the point? After a certain level of Midas-like wealth, the only point is societal standing and legacy. The Sacklers don't seem like the type of folks who are going to get inner joy by donating anonymously.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by FlyMoreRockets on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:03AM (#24283078)
> ...if someone cares to do even the bare minimum of research...

Aye, there's the rub.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by spaetzleesser on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:49AM (#24282419)
Wait a few years, let them put their names on some charitable foundations and giving away a small or large percentage of their gains and they will have stellar reputations. Worked for Bill Gates, Andrew Carnegie, Michael Milken and many others.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by selectodude on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:02AM (#24282554)
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/15/arts/design/met-museum-sa...

The Sacklers have been donating huge sums to put their name on things for a long time.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by R0b0t1 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:48AM (#24282954)
It's not naive. They have enough money that if it isn't taken they can simply outlast any hit to their reputation.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by 131012 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:45AM (#24282930)
They might even run for president.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by FlyMoreRockets on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:01AM (#24283064)
Or the current president might place them as the head of Health and Human Services.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by scottlocklin on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:01AM (#24282542)
Most billionaires haven't created a genocidal drug plague in America. Those who have should be at the very least shunned socially if we can't muster up a way of bankrupting them and throwing them in prison. I see the devastation of this all around me; this isn't some minor oopsie that resulted in a large fortune -it was the deliberate poisoning of large swathes of the country for profit.

You should make people aware of it when they invite you to events or places with their name on it. I've seen people call out Jeff Dean for inviting people to some Sackler named event; he seemed pretty horrified as well he should be.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by umvi on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:20AM (#24282704)
Surely 100% of opiod usage isn't bad? So 100% of the $10.8B isn't blood money? I'm sure some % of the opioids really helped people. For example, my grandpa has extremely painful back pain, and opioids were a godsend. Yeah, he got addicted, but he's in his 90s anyway, so at least he can live the rest of his life without dealing with crippling back pain.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by bcrosby95 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:53AM (#24282999)
The cost to market and develop the drug could easily outstrip the revenue from legitimate uses, especially if they spent a lot of money marketing the drug towards people that shouldn't be taking it. So yeah, all $10.8B could be blood money.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by jessaustin on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:51AM (#24283572)
How much "development" did it take? Oxy was first manufactured in 1917. "Opioids relieve pain and are much sought by opioid users", film at eleven. Any physician who didn't know what would obviously happen when this drug was prescribed is one whose care I would avoid.

But yeah, take all their money. The actions described in TFA obliterate the corporate veil. Frankly I don't know how they've avoided assassination attempts by the families of addicts.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by FlyMoreRockets on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:00AM (#24283055)
Sure, there are good applications of opiates. However, from my understanding, the $10.8B number is the amount that the court has ordered, i.e. the "blood money" and punitive amount, not the total profit.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by mmm_grayons on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:27AM (#24282766)
Is all that money tainted? While oxycontin holds a huge potential for abuse I know plenty of people who have taken it for real pain, been helped by it, and moved on. "Just take it all" doesn't sound like justice either.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by smolder on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:44PM (#24284234)
Taking it all seems fair to me. When someone steals from a retailer, we don't just make them pay for it and send them on their way, because that doesn't disincentivize stealing in the first place. The Sacklers/Purdue would need to be punished for the predatory, antisocial scheme to prevent others like it.
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by mmm_grayons on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:06PM (#24284505)
While an additional fine might be fair, again, just "taking it all" isn't. The Sacklers, while they might have played a small part, are being unfairly scapegoated for the whole of the opioid epidemic. This ignores the responsibility borne by states, physicians, and most importantly, those who choose to take the pills. This was also done with FDA approval.

More importantly, this is a part of the larger narrative that everything has been caused by overprescribed opioids. However, there's no correlation between increased prescriptions and increased illicit usage [0]. Rather, it seems there's been a large growth over time of illicit opioid use [1]. The only place this sort of thing has been effectively combated is in Portugal due to its decriminalization and attempts to make things safer. Politicians caused this with their stupid "war on drugs". They are now pointing and saying, "Look, the big bad Sacklers did it!" so their own failures are ignored. Stop scapegoating one family for a political and societal issue.

0: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330922982_Today%27s...

1: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180920161028.h...

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by smolder on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:04PM (#24286006)
I don't think they're being unfairly scapegoated. Oxycontin was an epidemic in itself. I've seen plenty of evidence from a variety of sources that their pills were aggressively and deceptively marketed as non-addictive, and that their wide availability led to an increase in opioid abuse. That includes knowing people who started on opioid addictions with brand name oxycontin and having heard countless anecdotes of the same. I'm having trouble understanding the motive for minimizing Purdue's role. The deception in marketing and all its consequences belong to them. It's difficult to imagine they merely made a mistake in trying to be effective marketers as opposed to knowingly misrepresenting what they sold in a way that was likely to harm the public.

All that said, I generally favor your stance that ending prohibition would yield the greatest harm reduction.

Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by alpineidyll3 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:23AM (#24282209)
<Karl Llewellyn enters the thread>
Re:How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune buil... by anm89 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:19AM (#24283231)
And what would a justice system look like, not in terms of vague sentiments or specific outcomes but in terms of process.

Justice is inherently subjective. A "justice system" to you is a facist dictatorship as implemented because it inherently relies on all justice coming from the subjective opinions of a single person, you.