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Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by jrichardshaw on Saturday June 27, 2020 @12:21PM (#23662720)
One of paper authors here. I'll try and answer some of the questions in the comments.

It seems like so long ago the paper actually went public onto the arXiv, but I guess the press embargo just ended.

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by pso on Saturday June 27, 2020 @01:05PM (#23663009)
Pure speculation, isn't the most interesting time period in the signal the transition from signal to no-signal (and back again)? How high is the resolution of the sensors? Is it possible that some frequencies are blocked fractionally earlier than others? At a fine enough temporal resolution, there might be more clues regarding the source.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by jrichardshaw on Saturday June 27, 2020 @04:58PM (#23664643)
Good question. For many FRBs there is access to the original antenna time streams (which are essentially voltages samples at 800 MHz), so superficially that might give you 1.25ns resolution. However, the intrinsic width of the pulses seem to be more like ~1ms. That tells you something about the emission source, giving you a rough upper bound on it's size of c * 1ms ~ 300km.

However, lots of interesting plasma physics effect occur between us and the FRB. The dominant thing that happens is that low frequencies arrive later than high frequencies (as they travel slow in a plasma). This causes the FRB to be smeared over many seconds rather than a millisecond. There's also multi path interference effects and an whole bunch of other stuff that happens. So actual the temporal structure of the burst tells you much more about the intervening medium than it does about the source.

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by cheerlessbog on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:51AM (#23668390)
A broader question that puzzles me, not specific to this phenomenon. Pulse length is often used to bound the size of a source in space (it cannot be smaller than light takes to traverse the object). But it’s possible that two phenomena can be correlated without being close, if there is a delayed action (akin to setting two alarm clocks and separating them in space). How can we confidently use this as evidence of size?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by throwaway4220 on Monday June 29, 2020 @05:26PM (#23683308)
> Pulse length is often used to bound the size of a source in space (it cannot be smaller than light takes to traverse the object).

Sorry for the possibly noob question, but why is this? I can't think of an intuitive explanation

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by cheerlessbog on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @01:04AM (#23686732)
I guess the assumption is that the phenomenon starts at a point, spreads across the object sized l at c, and lasts for only a period of time t at any location. Therefore the pulse ends after l/c + t = T. By measuring T you can put an upper bound on l.

Example of this inference, from the Wikipedia on Fast Radio Bursts (but I have seen in many contexts):

> The sources are thought to be a few hundred kilometers or less in size, as the bursts last for only a few milliseconds

Does that make sense?

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by cheerlessbog on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @01:12AM (#23686778)
I just realized what I described is not giving a lower bound.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by dreamcompiler on Saturday June 27, 2020 @05:21PM (#23664789)
I think of multipath being about signals bouncing off other objects (reflection) and bending through media (refraction) before reaching the receiver. At the cosmic scale, I'm guessing multipath also involves gravitational lensing. Correct?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by jrichardshaw on Saturday June 27, 2020 @05:39PM (#23664895)
There is some possibility of gravitational lensing of FRBs and people are definitely searching for it. However, in this case it is refraction caused by variation in the density of the ionised gas between us and the source (within our galaxy, the host galaxy, and at lower densities in the intervening medium).
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by pgt on Sunday June 28, 2020 @10:34AM (#23668953)
You just made me realize that it would be cheaper for an advanced civilization to send a message light years away by altering the medium through which the signal passes than to control the source directly, e.g. a neutron star.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by aaaxyz on Sunday June 28, 2020 @12:25PM (#23669867)
The Three Body Problem trilogy by Liu Cixin might interest you
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by throw1234651234 on Monday June 29, 2020 @11:56AM (#23678742)
That book is garbage and the author doesn't understand science, let alone writing. Just heads up for all the recommendations spammed on here.

Though his creative interpretation of higher dimensions was interesting (sending the tiny probe that unfolds on earth).

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by mturmon on Saturday June 27, 2020 @02:35PM (#23663676)
Could you say something about how you are now, or might later, coordinate fast follow up observations in other wavelengths or with other instruments?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by jrichardshaw on Saturday June 27, 2020 @04:20PM (#23664360)
This is a good question. FRBs pose a lot of challenges for follow up because most of them are not observed to repeat (this doesn't mean they don't repeat, just that they haven't been seen to). So you see them for a few seconds and then they're gone. To follow up, you need to know where exactly to look, and most of the instruments like CHIME used to discover FRBs don't have the resolution to see exactly where on the sky it was. You can maybe pin point it to within 1/4 degree, but need more like 1000th degree resolution to meaningfully follow up in other wavebands.

The most useful follow up has been for repeating FRBs. What happens there is that the discovery telescope tells you were it is roughly, and you know it repeats, so you can point a high resolution radio telescope (something like https://www.evlbi.org) to get a more precise location and then you can follow up with other telescopes.

One thing telescopes like CHIME are trying to do in the near future is to build their own long baseline station to give much higher resolution, such that they can get localisation on bursts which don't repeat, and do better follow up.

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by mturmon on Saturday June 27, 2020 @10:38PM (#23666403)
Thank you. I had been slightly familiar with fast follow up for SNs (that were detected optically), but their follow up times are much more forgiving than FRBs. The localization issue is also interesting.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by magicMonkeyPaw on Saturday June 27, 2020 @12:25PM (#23662740)
are you looking forward to reading all the crazy people's takes on why it's actually aliens that you found?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by jrichardshaw on Saturday June 27, 2020 @12:37PM (#23662816)
Always!

I think astronomers often make it worse. I mean, we like thinking about why things are actually aliens as much as anyone else (LGM1 was already mentioned), and while we mostly try to restrain ourselves, every now and again a famous astronomer breaks and lets out a paper about it.

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by plutonorm on Saturday June 27, 2020 @01:56PM (#23663359)
That's great to hear! If some credible evidence of aliens did appear, where do you think it would come from? Tabby's Star like data? atmospheric spectra? FRB's? other? Would absolutely love to hear your thoughts :)
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by antepodius on Saturday June 27, 2020 @01:58PM (#23663375)
My guess is a nanotech slug impacting earth and turning us into grey goo/a matrioshka brain factory.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by api on Saturday June 27, 2020 @03:52PM (#23664169)
That already happened. Living cells are nanotechnology. Something loaded with them impacted billions of years ago, and we're currently working on AI and rockets.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by techbio on Saturday June 27, 2020 @04:41PM (#23664512)
Source, please.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by api on Saturday June 27, 2020 @04:46PM (#23664552)
It was intended as a joke, like the parent.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by namarie on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:58AM (#23668189)
Was the parent intended as a joke? Plenty of answers didn't take it as such.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by gota on Saturday June 27, 2020 @04:16PM (#23664329)
This seems a reasonable and straightforward scenario and I'll prepare accordingly
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by antepodius on Saturday June 27, 2020 @05:55PM (#23664989)
Make yourself intra-universally interesting enough that the alien construction management AI might instantiate a simulation of you from the cached info at some point. It's a strange sort of Darwinism, but it's all we've got.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by gubby on Sunday June 28, 2020 @04:43AM (#23667525)
An instantiation of me from a backup, however accurate, would be no use to my sense of having survived as I would have ceased to exist and not even be aware of the copy.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by antepodius on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:20AM (#23667840)
That's fine! People with your philosophy of self will just cease to exist, as they presumably will refuse to optimize for likelihood of being simulated, and those with a more permissive notion of self-identity will be the ones willing to adapt to the hellish computational circumstances.

(Of course, you could say that everyone's ceasing to exist, here, because your rules of what counts as a person and what's their copy applies to everyone. But please realize that, from the point of view of those who think having a copy survive is better than all of them dying, and is partial survival in some sense, that being simulated is a form of winning, even if you think both the person and the copy are deluding themselves.)

(Though I do wonder how you go about the day without having a nervous breakdown, given that your evolving state is probably quantized, or at least sliceable, meaning there's no great physical difference between your pattern shifting from one [smallfractionofa]second to the next, destroying the old one and replacing it with a new one, and your old pattern being destroyed and replaced somewhere else. It's not like your past self is aware of your future copy in normal life, either!)

(I'm not saying you're wrong; just that the situation is a lot worse than you think it is, and that we should all be living (and repeatedly dying) in absolute existential terror.)

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by __MatrixMan__ on Sunday June 28, 2020 @10:25AM (#23668890)
If you haven't read Greg Egan's "Permutation City," it seems it might be right up your alley.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by Joeri on Sunday June 28, 2020 @01:08PM (#23670256)
For an exploration of the perception of self by a digital copy I can recommend The Old Axolotl by Jacek Dukaj.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by ajuc on Monday June 29, 2020 @08:45AM (#23677056)
Have you read it in English? Dukaj is my favorite modern sci-fi author and I'm wondering how well he's translated.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by throw1234651234 on Monday June 29, 2020 @11:59AM (#23678775)
I wonder if that's the case with "putting people on ice" if they ever manage to revive them.

Of course, one could argue that me having a past is a complete illusion anyway, as I am just some atoms.

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by thelittleone on Saturday June 27, 2020 @11:54PM (#23666642)
Perhaps we are an instance created by an alien construction management AI that is wondering if we will become self aware before the timeout.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by perl4ever on Saturday June 27, 2020 @05:12PM (#23664717)
I think there was a HN thread not that long ago about speculation that (at least some) viruses come to earth from space, so perhaps it is happening all the time.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by kabacha on Saturday June 27, 2020 @10:20PM (#23666339)
This seems such a "flat earth" type of hypothesis. I mean viruses depend on their hosts 100% so them coming from somewhere with no hosts and successfully slotting in with new hosts just seems immeasurably unlikely.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by __MatrixMan__ on Sunday June 28, 2020 @10:39AM (#23668986)
I think it makes more sense if you think of a virus as a software update for a genome. The question is not how a virus made it here--fashioning a delivery mechanism should be easy for a civilization advanced enough to hack into the genetics of a species on a distant planet--but who are it's authors and what new features or bug fixes does it provide?

Flu-like symptoms are probably just an unfortunate side effect. Things break during updates, it's an unfortunate fact of life. Maybe when a critical mass of people accept the update, they'll start building a giant transmitter for FRB's to let the sender know that the update was accepted.

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by kabacha on Monday June 29, 2020 @09:44PM (#23685627)
But viruses don't edit our genome do they?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by perl4ever on Saturday June 27, 2020 @10:29PM (#23666370)
Well, you assume there are no hosts.

I'm sure others have written more, and more intelligent things, but my general thinking about panspermia is:

- it seems like a universal rule there are more small things than large things

- there are more small red stars than stars like our sun

- there should probably be more brown dwarfs than small stars

- there are more small planets than large ones

- planets can and do form without stars

- planets should outnumber stars, and planets without stars should outnumber planets with stars

- there are probably more oceans below the surface of objects in our solar system than on the surface

- the universe existed for a long time before the solar system

...so it kind of seems intuitive to me that life should have developed underground where there's warmth from radioactivity and water, on countless free floating planets over billions of years and occasionally one of those gets blown to bits and something like that seeded our unusual planet.

...and it doesn't seem entirely implausible to me that there should be so much biological material in space that we get a certain amount all the time like micrometeoroids.

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by antepodius on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:27AM (#23667870)
I was recently browsing my uni's master's projects, having to pick one. One of the projects was titled "did COVID-19 come from space?"

I sort of regret not picking it; it's too funny. I'll definitely be reading it when whoever got it's done.

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by pvaldes on Saturday June 27, 2020 @05:31PM (#23664847)
Earth is perfectly capable to do it at home. Has created things more bizarre than viruses.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by tlow on Saturday June 27, 2020 @02:07PM (#23663456)
Can you say more about these nanotech slugs please?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by antepodius on Saturday June 27, 2020 @06:20PM (#23665125)
Imagine you're arbitrarily close to the physical limits of technology. You do or could understand how living things work, down to the molecular level, for example, and know how to engineer self-replicating machinery analogous to DNA. At the very least, you could build a 'spaceship' that can grow something at least as efficient as people, who can replicate however and disassemble earth for raw materials. Presumably, you can do much better, and you end up with something like a self-packaged deployable technological superintelligent ecosystem.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by 0ld on Saturday June 27, 2020 @02:29PM (#23663622)
I believe they are referencing James S. A. Corey The Expanse [0] series

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expanse_(novel_series)

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by antepodius on Saturday June 27, 2020 @05:52PM (#23664973)
Haha, nah, it was more the general idea. An amalgam of sci-fi. Greg Egan had a story where an advanced civ sends a gram-sized slug into the gas giant of a solar system, which bootstraps to machinery that 3d prints people and machinery, which is a plausible enough inspiration that I can give it here. Just remove the implausible 'nobody just decides to go bacteria-mode' aspect from Egan's far-future stories.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by Intermernet on Sunday June 28, 2020 @04:33AM (#23667483)
Do you happen to remember which story? I like Greg Egan and that one sounds interesting.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by antepodius on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:44AM (#23667926)
Found it eventually: https://outofthiseos.typepad.com/blog/files/GregEganGlory.pd...

All his stories are listed here, whether they be published on his website or elsewhere: https://www.gregegan.net/BIBLIOGRAPHY/Online.html

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by Intermernet on Wednesday July 01, 2020 @08:32AM (#23700634)
Thanks!
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by brainbag on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:51AM (#23667952)
It's not the Egan book but Accelerando by Charles Stross is my favorite near-current day up to post-singularity book and it covers topics like this in a fantastic and fun way.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by airstrike on Sunday June 28, 2020 @03:18PM (#23671292)
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by reedwolf on Saturday June 27, 2020 @01:00PM (#23662977)
I haven't seen the original paper (maybe that should've been linked instead?), but the MIT press release is dripping with "Not it's saying aliens..." innuendo.

It's kind of hypocritical to use nod-wink-aliens-clickbait to drum up media attention, then ridicule the first rube who asks if aliens could possibly be involved.

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by jrichardshaw on Saturday June 27, 2020 @01:20PM (#23663095)
That's a fair comment. I mostly think the MIT press release is pretty good and doesn't go down that route, except for the title, which is definitely hinting at it.

Also agree that it would make sense to replace the link with the actual paper, or an article about it. University press releases are mostly there to play up their own contribution.

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by redis_mlc on Saturday June 27, 2020 @08:40PM (#23665881)
> It's kind of hypocritical ... ridicule the first rube

That's why I always ridicule the mars colonization and alien contact scifi fanbois on HN, who actually believe in that nonsense.

Here's a question for them. The History channel used to have documentaries, but now it has alien fiction videos. Is that your fault?

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by networkimprov on Saturday June 27, 2020 @12:47PM (#23662881)
When are you scheduled for an appearance on the Event Horizon podcast?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz3qvETKooktNgCvvheuQDw

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by jrichardshaw on Saturday June 27, 2020 @01:03PM (#23662997)
Actually looks like Shriharsh, one of the folks in the collaboration has already done it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc8FsImLUEU

I guess he probably didn't talk about this because of the press embargo though.

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by koheripbal on Saturday June 27, 2020 @04:57PM (#23664641)
Am I the only one that needs an RSS feed to follow a podcast channel? Maybe I'm using the wrong app?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by tomcooks on Sunday June 28, 2020 @03:39AM (#23667296)
Try antennapod, it's libre software
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by koheripbal on Sunday June 28, 2020 @01:08PM (#23670257)
I don't see how to subscribe to a Youtube video with antennapod. Have you done it?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by tomcooks on Sunday June 28, 2020 @04:30PM (#23671798)
I assumed you were talking about podcasts, audio only.

Try finding the RSS feed of the channel and adding it to Antennapod, but I am not sure it will work

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by koheripbal on Monday June 29, 2020 @11:04AM (#23678234)
I found the RSS feed - https://www.youtube.com/feeds/videos.xml?channel_id=UCz3qvET...

...unfortunately, it's not a podcast RSS format, so there's no way to load it into Podkicker.

In AntennaPod, it'll subscribe, but won't download or play the episodes...

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by Fudgel on Sunday June 28, 2020 @11:19PM (#23674048)
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by sradman on Saturday June 27, 2020 @01:19PM (#23663088)
Have any additional FRBs been detected since the publication of the paper?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by jrichardshaw on Saturday June 27, 2020 @04:30PM (#23664430)
Many.

I'm not super involved on the FRB side of CHIME, so I'm not 100% clear what is public and what isn't. But you can an idea from public info around the internet. I think the last total number made public was over 700 in March this year, and the previous one 30 in October 2018 (https://aasnova.org/2020/03/13/chime-detects-even-more-repea...).

Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by SubiculumCode on Saturday June 27, 2020 @04:21PM (#23664369)
Is it fair to say that leading hypotheses for this kinds of events include an orbiting body, leading to the periodicity?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by jrichardshaw on Sunday June 28, 2020 @12:45PM (#23670041)
Yeah, that's definitely one of the main hypotheses. There aren't any other repeating FRBs known to do this yet, so how general a mechanism this is, is not known.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by zitterbewegung on Saturday June 27, 2020 @11:19PM (#23666534)
Whats the most annoying question you get when you bring up this research paper?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by AYBABTME on Sunday June 28, 2020 @05:28PM (#23672210)
Why are there press embargoes for these things?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by 317070 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @06:54PM (#23672715)
In order to maximize impact. Press doesn't want to talk about this unless there is an embargo, otherwise they might be 'late' in which case they would rather not mention it at all (and not have to spend costly journalist time)
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by johnwangdoe on Saturday June 27, 2020 @08:21PM (#23665779)
WHat do you think about Contant the movie in relations to your job?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by jrichardshaw on Sunday June 28, 2020 @01:19PM (#23670346)
I mean, I sit around wearing headphones a lot, but that's about the closest it gets I'm afraid :)
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by ellis0n on Saturday June 27, 2020 @04:57PM (#23664639)
The more powerful technology provides the more powerful chips and telescopes and microscopes. On the basis of new data obtained with the help of new devices, new theories are created that help in creating even more microscopic components, which will help in creating even more powerful devices recursively. The singularity in the action of CHIME and AI made it possible to determine the signal; a major breakthrough is coming in all areas. Interestingly, somewhere there is a miscalculation when we can look into the space using a smartphone in real time? Any related theorems?
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by irthomasthomas on Saturday June 27, 2020 @02:41PM (#23663720)
Assuming that it is aliens, for a moment, we can not know if these aliens are friendly or hostile, right? So, given that there is a 50/50 chance of them being hostile, and given their awesome show of strength, the precautionary principal dictates that we not advertise our presence too loudly.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by goatlover on Saturday June 27, 2020 @10:40PM (#23666409)
They wouldn't know about us for 500 million years, assuming we could emit a strong enough signal for them to detect that far away. Any aliens that could actually pose a threat would probably be close enough to pick up our emissions anyway.
Re:Astronomers detect regular rhythm of radio waves, with or... by pvaldes on Saturday June 27, 2020 @05:38PM (#23664886)
33 % chance of being hostile, 33% of being friendly and 33% of do not wanting anything with us in decades by cause of an humongous jet-lag