News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by gameswithgo on Friday June 19, 2020 @12:15AM (#23570911)
Developers really should stage a revolt on both Google and Apple's mobile phone ecosystems. They have ruined computing for users (locked down systems with no ability to tinker) and make it impossible to have any viable business on their platforms, since they have total control over you, can shut you down at any time without recourse, and retroactively change terms. It is part of a larger trend of evolving business world where small players are doomed.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by graton on Friday June 19, 2020 @12:49AM (#23571064)
This is not 100% correct for Google. Realistically yes I agree. But you can at least install a 3rd Party app store on Android, as I have done with F-droid. Also I believe Amazon has an App store too. The percentage of people who do that is very small I realize.

Now Apple does not offer anyway that I have heard of for people to offer an alternative app store.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:06AM (#23571149)
While you CAN sideload an app on Android, it would still be crippled on modern versions of Android, because it would not be able to receive push notifications. Coupled with the fact that recent versions of Android aggressively offload background apps from memory, many types of applications function with great difficulty.

This CAN be overcome by a special app that keeps connection with an alternative push notification server, but it would still be prone to offloading and would have to run a persistent notification.

The proper solution would be unlocking notification services on Android devices and allowing to chose alternative push notifications providers. This can also be applied to iOS.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by ex3ndr on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:00AM (#23571451)
Killing apps in the background and offloading them from memory is a godsend for a Android ecosystem. It is literally so much harder to make anything battery optimized since you have get information about almost everything to make it right: need radio? beware that it is in active state and only then send data. Want do background processing? Wait until user will charge it's phone. Making apps battery efficient is insanely hard task and it is solvable by just offloading everything to an OS.

I have built several push services for my previous projects it always sooo hard to implement right. iOS for example, uses 25+ different parameters to optimize push delivery depending on your app usage, on how you are using your phone and so on.

Good luck to build this as "third party" and keep everything private.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:15AM (#23571909)
It is a godsend only up to a point when you can't run an app in the background even if you badly need to. The computers (and Android devices are computers) should not be putting their users into straight jackets so they won't hurt themselves. Users should have an option to do what they want. The system's job is to inform that what they are doing is using battery. If a user is OK with it, the system SHOULD NOT interfere.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by ex3ndr on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:33AM (#23571998)
Using such information is so hard that almost impossible. I could spend a year tailoring battery performance for a messenger and still get random guy who have some exotic phone with some strange behaviour.

There are really almost no need to run app in the background or at least constantly send data without a reason (mostly just tracking).

UPD: When deciding how to build something i have one small trick: first ask question about who can make better decision about something?

For example? Who is more capable to make decision about battery usage, about tweaking core performance, etc? It is obviously kernel or silicone itself. App will never have required information to build perfect performant app for every device. This just means that you have to build a kernel by yourself and even more: common kernel for every phone.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:02AM (#23572174)
> Using such information is so hard that almost impossible.

Aren't battery stats not enough for you? If your app uses too much battery, you can stop using it. Or you prefer some other people to make this decision for you?

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by namibj on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:20AM (#23571233)
The thing is, though, that Firebase push notifications are deeply integrated with mobile networks. They get special treatment to ensure energy-efficient operation, at the cost of more idle connections hanging in the network infrastructure. Yes, with IPv6 that should/could become much less relevant, but then you loose the traffic-flood-DoS protections you get from CG-NAT.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:13AM (#23571888)
Oh come on. Push notifications is just a modified XMPP connection that exists in the background. Actually, both FCM and APNS use XMPP to transport notification to devices.

The only 'special treatment' that happens is on Google/Apple servers which determine the priority of some of notifications.

How do I know? We're very involved with the XMPP protocol. The irony is that it is insanely hard to maintain an XMPP connection to a client on both Android / iOS, despite devices under both these OSs being an always connected XMPP clients.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by namibj on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:30AM (#23572354)
Well, in your sibling I have linked a paper that talks about the negative effects of un-coordinated persistent TCP connections on the network's stability. I read a god chunk of it, and it seems to explain quite well why these push services get special treatment. Hint: it's connected to them running a keep-alive delay in the "hours" range for the mobile radio link, without imposing that on the cloud server.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by posguy on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:30AM (#23571621)
Please provide evidence of this "deep integration" with mobile networks.

Moxie has cited this previously with no proof, despite protocols like xmpp performing similarly on mobile networks.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by thu2111 on Friday June 19, 2020 @11:11AM (#23575257)
There is integration. I don't know what it is these days but it used to be mostly carriers adjusting TCP timeouts on their NAT boxes.

The issue is that a long lived TCP connection consumes some valuable RAM and a port number on a valuable IP address. It costs carriers something for push notifications to work, so, they tend to aggressively close long lived TCP connections that aren't going to recognised push datacenters.

For that to work you need business relationships with the carriers of course, stable IP addresses, and enough users of your push service for it to be worthwhile.

IPv6 would fix it by eliminating IP scarcity and CGNAT, but most mobile networks aren't provisioning handsets with IPv6 addresses.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by namibj on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:53AM (#23571770)
The second page, on the right, the last bullet point, suggests such deep integration:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170708204409/www2015.wwwconfer...

Whether FCM uses these technologies, I don't know. I lack the hardware to easily inspect the mobile radio traffic on the necessary level (the best would be a DIY stingray based on one or two OsmocomBB-capable GSM phones, maybe combined with a Faraday cage to place one of them into, together with the smartphone.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:17AM (#23571917)
The irony is, FCM is a modified XMPP
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by dannyw on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:30AM (#23571289)
OK, Google may charge for Firebase push notifications. Including making a profit from it of course.

They may not perform anticompetitive behaviour like bundling (as they have already been fined for in the EU over Android and Play Services).

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by namibj on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:46AM (#23571376)
Huh? FCM is free: https://firebase.google.com/products/cloud-messaging

I don't see the anti-competitive part there. There are good reasons around consolidating resident daemons and only using a single TCP connection with a special keep-alive configuration.

And from experience, it's perfectly possible to not use FCM, at the cost of a persistent notification that alerts the user about this, so they can get rid of abusive apps.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by solarkraft on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:23AM (#23571582)
> I don't see the anti-competitive part there.

Maybe not exactly anti-competitive (but maybe): It requires you to have hundreds of megabytes of Google blobs with root permissions on your device, which some people don't like.

If course this pales in contrast to Apples actions.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by namibj on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:38AM (#23571663)
https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_GmsCore/wiki... claims to support this without blobs. I haven't tested it myself, but some friends seem to have no problems with their de-googled Androids.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by dannyw on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:11AM (#23571514)
Can you use FCM for non-Play-Store apps? I was under the impression you couldn't from the grand-grand-parent.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by neurostimulant on Friday June 19, 2020 @05:35AM (#23572752)
I think you can but you still have to link to Google play services, which is not possible for open source apps in f-droid since they need to be able to run on de-googled android which lacks Google services.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by namibj on Friday June 19, 2020 @07:20AM (#23573247)
It looks like FCM is supported by the open replacement I linked in a close-by comment, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23571663
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by neurostimulant on Friday June 19, 2020 @07:38AM (#23573346)
Aren't microg supposed to get installed first on the device? Which mean if the user doesn't have it, then your app won't run? Or can you embed the FCM support into the app itself so it doesn't depend on google play service or microg availability?
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by namibj on Saturday June 20, 2020 @06:33PM (#23587985)
You're asking the wrong person. I'd have to research just as much as you'd, and judging by upvotes and age, (almost) no one else would care. Sorry :(
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by namibj on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:41AM (#23571685)
I found no evidence for either side, but I can't easily test it right now.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by solarkraft on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:19AM (#23571553)
> it would still be crippled on modern versions of Android, because it would not be able to receive push notifications

My understanding is that this is not an effect of side loading, but an app not using Google Cloud Messaging, which is not available when play services are not installed.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by tolpp on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:15AM (#23571905)
Yeah, that's true.

Anyone can distribute their Andrioid app using their desired way. Even via web site. Exmple: https://signal.org/android/apk/

Sending push messages to Android phone using Firebase Cloud Messaging(FCM, formerly GCM) requires "Google Play Services" installed on that Android device. Google Play Services is not depends on Google Play Store and is not requires that applications using Play Services should installed by Play Store.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by perryizgr8 on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:21AM (#23571562)
For completeness, Huawei and Samsung also have their respective app stores.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by t0ughcritic on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:36AM (#23572009)
No one uses the third party App Store. Even mentioning it is silly
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by erk__ on Friday June 19, 2020 @05:27AM (#23572720)
The single biggest market does not use anything else. The Google play store does just not exist in China, instead there are multiple different 3rd party app stores. There is a study here which is a couple of years old about such stores. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1810.07780.pdf
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by gibolt on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:22AM (#23571239)
Technically you have web-apps, but it is also going to be a tiny minority who would seek that out. And of course they are not as feature rich
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by siquick on Friday June 19, 2020 @12:44AM (#23571041)
> They have ruined computing for users (locked down systems with no ability to tinker)

This just isn't an issue for 99.9% of users.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by pkage on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:31AM (#23571292)
To hop on this train: people like you and I love customizing our devices and tailoring our experiences to exactly what we'd like, and that's completely fine. To a lot of people, though, their mobile device is just a tool—a tool that they can use to do other things. In that usecase, the phone needs to work as simply and reliably as possible, and by reducing the amount of things that can go wrong (live wallpapers draining the phone's battery and sketchy application launchers come to mind) the more approachable that system is.

My take is this: computers (especially phones) are like cars: some people love to tinker with them and take on a project car that they tweak to their liking, but most people need a reliable and inexpensive car that can get them to and from the grocery store.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by m463 on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:16AM (#23572269)
> like cars

Now some people never open the hood of their car. And for those who do, a lot of car manufacturers have just the answer -- they have a second hood under the first hood (it's plastic and only has holes for maybe the wiper fluid).

but apple is bolting the hood shut. and welding it.

(it's such a shame, really)

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by JeremyNT on Friday June 19, 2020 @09:27AM (#23574312)
> This just isn't an issue for 99.9% of users.

Until years later we have fewer people interested in learning how computers work, because the only devices they ever owned were locked down walled gardens.

Maybe these people don't even know what they're missing, because they've never even seen it?

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by ddingus on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:04AM (#23571138)
Maybe right now. Bet that does not last.

Those of us who understand the implications now would benefit ourselves and many others by helping more people find that spark, that need, want to tinker.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by _ph_ on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:25AM (#23571969)
While most useres don't want to "tinker" themselves, limiting the ability to do so can limit the experience of all users. Because a too strict app review does limit the range of apps available for a system, and that has the potential to affect all users.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by juanbyrge on Friday June 19, 2020 @12:54AM (#23571098)
Is the alternative really better? Look at Windows, which had no restrictions on apps that you could install. It was a security nightmare and became a cesspool of malware. You just had to trick people into opening a .exe and you could compromise the machine. Most consumers are dumb and it should not be possible to trick them into installing arbitrary binaries.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by grawprog on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:39AM (#23571333)
>Is the alternative really better? Look at Windows, which had no restrictions on apps that you could install.

I can do the same thing on linux yet my computer's not a cesspool of malware.

>Most consumers are dumb and it should not be possible to trick them into installing arbitrary binaries.

No, most users are uneducated and don't care and expect computers to be safe the way other things are. This doesn't make them dumb, this doesn't mean they need to be treated like children. This means the information needs to be communicated to them more effectively'

Most users are adults capable of dealing with the myriad of dangerous things life brings. This is because most things come with adequate instructions and warnings.

Operating systems follow two extremes, they give no fucks and let you do what you want with minimal instruction or they lock you up and tell you what to do. Both of these are inadequate for average people and don't reflect the way most things worked, up until relatively recently when businesses decided people needed to be treated like children.

Computers are heavily integrated with daily life. Treating users like a bunch of kids that need safety padding is insulting and ridiculous. If there's a failing at the general public in understanding these concepts, it's a failing both in education and honestly, a collective elitism that places people who know technology above regular people, reflected both among regular people in the tech community and large tech companies that results in either them being taken advantage of or manipulated, or again being treated as invalids incable of looking after themselves.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by zimpenfish on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:45AM (#23571368)
> Most users are adults capable of dealing with the myriad of dangerous things life brings.

While I'd like to believe that, injury and death statistics from things like road accidents, smoking, alcohol, etc.; the number of machines owned in botnets; and the overall response to COVID-19 is not convincing evidence of this.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by grawprog on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:50AM (#23571394)
Yet the general population also wakes up every day, exists on a rock hurtling through space at ridiculous speeds, exist for years on end doing all kinds of things. They wake up and do things you or I are incapable of.

You can look at all the dumb shit humanity does and scorn it all you want then stop and think about the fact that, you me and everyone else is here with all the things around us. This shit didn't come from nowhere. Humanity, for all it's faults and weaknesses did this and you exist because of this.

The average person, as much as that implies, is capable of some pretty impressive things and to dismiss them is pretty arrogant and I bet if you took a look at your life you've done some pretty dumb shit...and if not I salute you, you are truly above all others.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by zimpenfish on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:05AM (#23572199)
> The average person, as much as that implies, is capable of some pretty impressive things

They are also capable of some pretty stupid and self-destructive things, too, even in the face of "adequate instructions and warnings".

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by solarkraft on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:28AM (#23571607)
> Operating systems follow two extremes, they give no fucks and let you do what you want with minimal instruction or they lock you up and tell you what to do

Android actually does it decently well. Apps are pretty well sandboxed with quite clear interfaces and side loading can be enabled in the settings (even as a side loading fan I think it's a bit easy, considering the consequences).

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by modeless on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:24AM (#23571250)
And yet, it is still the most popular desktop OS, and desktop PCs with more open OSes have capabilities that even iPads with keyboard docks can't touch. Plus, there are about a million things you could do to improve the security of an OS that don't require a gatekeeper. Windows specifically has many problems but that shouldn't condemn the entire concept of a computer that the user actually has control over.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by zimpenfish on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:48AM (#23571387)
> And yet, it is still the most popular desktop OS

"most popular" in the sense of "most widely installed and tolerated", perhaps, but definitely not "most popular because people actively chose it where there are other viable options" because, for many people, there is no viable alternative (e.g. gamers).

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by distances on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:09AM (#23571506)
> for many people, there is no viable alternative (e.g. gamers).

There's an increasing feeling that Linux is getting there for gamers too. There are already mainstream narratives [0] that Linux may be better for gaming than Windows!

[0] E.g. https://youtu.be/6T_-HMkgxt0

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by aegis4244 on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:26AM (#23572331)
My 18 year old step-son does not care about OSS, or Linux. Yesterday his just received a new laptop. He said, "well, I'm going to install Linux on it, you know, for games". By which he means minecraft, which ran much better on Linux than on the native windows 10 his last laptop came with. Higher fps, more terrain loaded....yadayada ...... I shot soda out my nose.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by zimpenfish on Friday June 19, 2020 @04:02AM (#23572171)
> There's an increasing feeling that Linux is getting there for gamers too.

True, I definitely see a lot more of the things offered by people like itch.io or Humble Bundle having a Linux option.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by riffraff on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:24AM (#23571255)
That seems a false dichotomy, macOS had an app store for many years while still allowing you to install random apps.

An average consumer might get most of their apps from the vetted store while still able to install transmission or VLC directly.

The problem with windows was that there where no properly implemented permission systems and there were a ton of bugs that malware could exploit, the situation seems to have improved significantly from Windows 98.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by dannyw on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:34AM (#23571309)
You are describing a lack of sandboxing, not an open platform.

We are talking on the web right now. Your browser executes arbitrary code. Should we ask someone to approve every single website before it can be accessed?

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by hoseja on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:25AM (#23571591)
The reaction to dumb people should not be stooping to their level but trying to uplift them to yours.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by _ph_ on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:31AM (#23571984)
The problem is, the App Store conflates security review with "curating". The question, whether "Hey" offers in-app purchases or not is not a security question, the app was rejected because Apple requires in-app purchases (from which they take 30%).
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by rydre on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:53AM (#23571413)
No it's not a "nightmare". My mom and dad have their own laptops with windows. They never got a virus. And they're non tech people in their 50's.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by samwize on Friday June 19, 2020 @12:34AM (#23570995)
We should remove our apps for a day or 2.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by bahador on Friday June 19, 2020 @12:44AM (#23571042)
Sounds like you should organize a strike. An app store walkout.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by bduerst on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:15AM (#23571206)
An app shutdown day would be more appropos.

Easier to coordinate a deployment for, and affects all users, not just installing one. It would also allow you to control the messaging users see when they open your app and it only loads the walk out day screen.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by lvturner on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:05AM (#23571479)
Why not just display the message and then allow users to use the app.

Punishing the users of an app for the behaviour of the store, while attention grabbing and potentially impactful, seems a bit like chucking the baby out with the bathwater.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by bduerst on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:04AM (#23571836)
That's fair, though app disruption is more impactful - kind of like how websites went down for SOPA.
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by troughway on Friday June 19, 2020 @12:20AM (#23570939)
“It’s their product they can do whatever they want” - HN, literally.

You didn’t see this coming? Good one, now pull the other one.

Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by x3n0ph3n3 on Friday June 19, 2020 @01:25AM (#23571266)
It's almost as if HN isn't a single monolithic hivemind and is composed of a multitude of sometimes similar, sometimes conflicting opinions!
Re:Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014 by hedora on Friday June 19, 2020 @02:45AM (#23571719)
I disagree.