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Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by gegtik on Monday May 18, 2020 @01:04PM (#23225104)
I really want to know why this is feasible for the Quest but not the Rift S, given that both have Inside-Out tracking (ie. IR cameras mounted on the headset). In fact, the Rift S has 5 cameras to the Quests's 4 so it should be at least as capable shouldn't it?
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by rpdillon on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:50PM (#23229753)
It's a quirk of the Qualcomm chipset they used in the Quest. It has an extra DSP accelerator that was originally unused, but they managed to repurpose it for hand tracking. It was an opportunistic play, as I understand it.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by jachee on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:44PM (#23230105)
Couldn't they tap into the Host PC's compute power for tethered headsets?

It feels like they're trying to exclude anyone who wants to play non-Oculus-published games.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by SimpleMinds on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:34PM (#23230767)
Could you link to a source about that dsp being specifically used for hand-tracking? My quick google didn't found a result that could confirm that and it would explain a bit. Thank you!
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by corndoge on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:40PM (#23230815)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMIDaomx0GA

It's in here somewhere. It's also extensively covered in the hour breakout session by the folks who implemented it, which is uploaded somewhere though I can't find the link atm.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by rpdillon on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:31AM (#23231286)
Carmack's keynote that corndoge linked to is exactly my source. I'm not sure about one that's more searchable, unfortunately.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by xdxdx on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @02:11AM (#23231755)
Also referenced in this paper (section 5): https://research.fb.com/publications/machine-learning-at-fac...
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by SimpleMinds on Thursday May 21, 2020 @02:54AM (#23255556)
Thank you everyone!
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by TwoBit on Monday May 18, 2020 @09:08PM (#23230259)
Rift S could do hand tracking better than Quest, but it requires a separate effort that isn't currently a high priority. Source: I worked on it at Oculus.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by corndoge on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:39PM (#23230803)
How was / is your overall experience at Oculus?
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by shafyy on Monday May 18, 2020 @05:14PM (#23228451)
I would be suprised if it's primarily a technological reason.

My thinking is: The Rift S is 99.99% used for "serious" gaming and PCVR will always be that way. For serious gaming you'll probably need some kind of controllers for the near future, since you want that fidelity and haptic feedback. Now, controllers could be replaced some day by braceletes or what not, but this is not going to happen next year.

The Quest and its successors (i.e. stand-alone VR), on the other hand, is and will be more and more used for lighter gaming, video, browsing, productivity, fitness, social etc. Often times, hand-tracking will be enough without the need for controllers.

Therefore, they focus their resources on bringing hand-tracking only to the Quest.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by zmmmmm on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:49PM (#23230852)
My guess is it's partly that but also mixed in with aligning to their mass market consumer ambitions.

I've given my Quest to countless people to try out and while every single person is blown away, many / most of them are challenged to use the controllers as anything more than simple pointing devices without significant training. With hand tracking that all goes away. You just use your hands how you normally use them and it "just works". It's similar to how the original iPhone captured everybody's imaginations because it offered such intuitive gestures to control its UI.

If you see the Quest as their "mass market" device and then you consider that their top priority is to knock over every barrier that stops it spreading like wildfire, then it's a no brainer to eliminate the controllers.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by aylmao on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:08PM (#23229440)
+1. Also worth noting, the implementation would be fundamentally different. On the Quest it's running on-device on specific chips, whereas on the Rift S this processing would be done on the user's PC.

It's doable, but you probably can't just drop the implementation for hand-tracking on one platform and have it work on the other.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by Caligatio on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:31AM (#23231281)
The Quest can link to your computer and essentially act as a Rift using a USB cable (needed to be USB 3.0, a recent beta update knocked that down to USB 2). I can easily see the Rift being removed from the product line in the future.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by MikusR on Monday May 18, 2020 @01:32PM (#23225545)
Quest does the processing in the headset and it is very probably accelerated.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by boolcow on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:11PM (#23226191)
Rift S is connected to a far more powerful gaming PC. It seems like Oculus simply treats the Rift S and their customers as a second-class.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by wlesieutre on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:47PM (#23226752)
Does the Rift S send its camera feeds to the PC for controller tracking or does it do it onboard and send the tracked controller locations?

Perhaps the onboard hardware is capable of controller tracking as sold, but not powerful enough to enable Quest-style hand tracking. What if in addition to that, the camera data for one reason or another can't be piped over USB to the computer, either because it's missing the hardware that would do the encoding, or because there isn't enough bandwidth on the cable?

As I recall, the original Rift's outside-in tracking was extremely picky about having separate USB 3 ports for each of its tracking cameras, to the point where if you had a three-camera setup it didn't even want them on ports handled by the same USB controller on the motherboard.

Now we're saying "The Rift-S has five cameras and it's connected to the computer, surely it can just let the computer process that data." I doubt it's that easy.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by timdorr on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:52PM (#23229770)
The inside-out tracking is done on the PC over USB. The Rift S is essentially just a basic I/O. Very little processing is done on-device.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by wlesieutre on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @09:03AM (#23234391)
Ah, so it probably is just the Quest being their priority then. Have to say I'm happy with mine.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by rubicon33 on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:30PM (#23226469)
This is definitely looking more and more true.

Consider the fact that the Rift-S has been out of stock for months. Oculus continues to re-stock the Quest (which sells out within 24h), but we haven't seen a restock of the Rift-S in probably 3 months?

Their "Del Mar" which is coming up, is very likely not going to be a tethered headset. My money is it will be standalone like the Quest.

Oculus is trying to get the masses to adopt VR and I salute them for it. There will always be headsets like the Valve index for enthusiasts.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by pharke on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:56PM (#23228266)
I think it's a smart play. Standalone VR makes it incredibly more accessible. Everyone with a Quest does the same thing, they cart it around to parties and gatherings to let people experience VR and it's a blast. Even if this wasn't intentional marketing it's the best strategy for getting the word out. I'm hoping the Del Mar is a big upgrade, if it can bring better processing and better resolution to the table hopefully with a killer feature like adaptive focus and gaze tracking then I think it'll just knock it out of the park. Regardless though it's only a matter of time until all our screens are virtual.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by jachee on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:47PM (#23230127)
I just hope that publisher lock-in isn't the price we have to pay fo r all our screens to be virtual.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by saurik on Monday May 18, 2020 @03:35PM (#23227334)
I mean, going forward, given the existence of Link (and that Link surprisingly actually works), there is very little reason for the Rift S to exist at all; it sucks that they sold it to people and then so quickly obsoleted it by another product that came out at the same time and cost the same amount, but other than the feeling of responsibility for those customers I can't imagine any reason for them to spend any time at all on that device line: that use case is now Quest Link; if they built and sold more of them they would just be digging themselves a deeper liability hole of more limited devices they don't want to support.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by rubicon33 on Monday May 18, 2020 @06:44PM (#23229251)
Linus Tech Tips did a pretty damn good review of the Quest + Link solution. At the time he did the review, it looked like it had some very strange black bar artifacts when turning your head quickly, which the Rift-S did not. He also described it having a slight lag in the controls.

These kinds of things are likely non-issues for your average gamer who isn't moving really fast, and isn't requiring ultra precise controls. For some people though, it's a huge deal breaker.

I'm personally very grateful for both Valve and Oculus. Oculus is serving the mass market, and doing a great job of it. I just hope in the process, we don't lose the high end consumer gear like Valve Index.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by kbenson on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:15PM (#23229501)
How long ago was that? The Quest link cable stuff is still in flux. Not only did they just announce a few days ago that any USB 2.0 cable should now work[1], but they note in that article that Carmack is hoping to add a new mode to take advantage of the higher bandwidth of USB 3.1.

It's entirely possible if that Linux Tech Tips review was more than a month or two ago, things might look considerably different now.

1: https://uploadvr.com/oculus-link-usb-2-update/

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by rubicon33 on Monday May 18, 2020 @08:53PM (#23230167)
It was about 3 months ago:

https://youtu.be/AGScX_8plYw

He talks about "lag with lag compensation" when referring to some of the controls on the quest v.s. the rift-s

Hopefully that has improved, as I bought a quest and it arrives tomorrow! CV1 owner.

Also... Is Carmack still working on Oculus stuff? That's awesome. I got really sad when I heard he was leaving Oculus to work on general AI.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by kbenson on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:23AM (#23231257)
I know, it sure seems like he has a lot of skill and institutional knowledge to contribute. That said, I'm not sure what his current involvement is, I just know they referenced him in that article.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by pharke on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:58PM (#23228282)
Almost feels like they were doing an A/B test
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by mentat on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:21PM (#23226340)
Latency even over a few feet can matter.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by mrlala on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:48PM (#23226764)
By that argument aren't the controllers experiencing more latency on RiftS than Quest already? I realize there is more post-processing with hand tracking, but given that it already experiences the latency of having to process the control actions... not really sure how this could affect it that much.

Also, you could argue the hand tracking calculations could be done faster on a PC, so even if there is some perceived latency it could balance out or be better... would really need numbers for all of this, but it does just seem very suspect that they are trying to push more things on the Quest intentionally..

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by rock_hard on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:51PM (#23230864)
Different camera setup on both device would have required twice the amount of training data for the models

So they rather doubled down on the more promising form factor

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by Impossible on Monday May 18, 2020 @01:07PM (#23225174)
Internal company politics and prioritization of Quest. It's possible that hand tracking will come to Rift S, but it might be a side effect of wanting to support it with the Quest link cable.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by whywhywhywhy on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:10PM (#23226168)
Just the reality that headsets like Quest are the true future of VR, PCVR is an evolutionary dead end a very small percentage of people who can afford them want a gaming PC tower in their home, PCVR is a fraction of a fraction of percentage.

I own both and demoing my Rift on a high spec system my friends were blown away and the first question was "Can it run on my macbook?" Then thats where the idea of owning VR died for them.

Demoed my Quest and one person bought one within 2 minutes of taking the headset off, took his to a family BBQ and two more people there bought it after trying it for a few minutes.

I still enjoy many PCVR games but this is just reality.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by Sevaris on Monday May 18, 2020 @06:27PM (#23229123)
> PCVR is an evolutionary dead end a very small percentage of people who can afford them want a gaming PC tower in their home, PCVR is a fraction of a fraction of percentage.

PCVR is no more niche than the demographics for Far Cry 5. If you have the hardware to run a modern AAA game on PC, all you're really missing at that point is the headset. And I don't see Ubisoft refusing to make games for PC because there are too few people with powerful enough PCs. As GPU tech continues to develop and higher performance reaches lower price points, it'll also become more accessible to more people. Though you can already pay 200-250 Euros for a decent GPU now and it'll be more than sufficient for VR gaming.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by whywhywhywhy on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:37AM (#23235330)
Far Cry 5 runs on mid range PC, high end PC, PS4 and Xbox One and it's funding would have relied on the combined profits of all those installs.

High end PC is a small fraction of those installs.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by Miraste on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:39PM (#23228059)
PCVR capabilities are too high for it to be a dead end. More niche, absolutely, because mobile VR/AR has somewhere from console to smartphone-level growth potential--but a smaller, higher-paying market for premium experiences is going to continue.
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by Impossible on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:56PM (#23228259)
It's unlikely that PC will ever be mass market, but when/if VR makes more in roads in productivity applications PC will be key. There is a lot of promise in art creation, game development and 3D content creation, and of course HN's traditional programmer dream of infinite terminals, but the real killer app is telepresence for remote meetings. All of those use cases need better software and hardware
Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by whywhywhywhy on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @10:40AM (#23235352)
>There is a lot of promise in art creation, game development and 3D content creation

Absolutely agree with this, literally anyone who can use the headset is able to sculpt a 3D model in Oculus Medium that resembles what they want. Same can't be said for any non-vr 3D modelling software, huge potential in the creative industries.

Still niche and not mainstream though.

Re:Oculus: Hand Tracking Updates by ccktlmazeltov on Monday May 18, 2020 @05:23PM (#23228537)
What's the point of a Rift since you can stream to your Quest now?