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Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by Vivtek on Friday March 11, 2011 @12:28PM (#2314080)
All strict building codes save lives. That's the whole point of building codes. Sheesh. You'd think New Yorkers would get that.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by OstiaAntica on Friday March 11, 2011 @01:04PM (#2314239)
Building codes were on the books in Haiti too. There is a lot more to this question, including the presence of honest government, the ability of an economy to afford the code, and a healthy insurance market.

Insurance companies often require higher standards than building code demands.

Also, politically, the reason some societies have strict building codes is because there is a group-- insurance companies-- that have an economic incentive to push for stronger codes.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by dmlorenzetti on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:37PM (#2314560)
There's also political pressure in the opposite direction, from the construction industry.

I heard a lecture once by a structural engineer who had worked in hurricane alleys in Florida. He said there was a cycle of tightening up rules (for instance on the number of nails needed to hold down a roof) after big storms, then relaxing them as the years went by. Without a big storm to remind people just why the rules were tightened up, there was inevitable pressure to relax them in order to make it cheaper to build.

This is more off-topic, but another interesting thing he said was that you could get a sense of maximum local wind speeds by looking at airstream-type trailers. They are, as you might expect, extremely well engineered to resist the sorts of wind pressures you get at highway speeds, so winds of 60-80mph don't tend to rip the hide off them. But you get above a certain threshold, and they all tend to give way at once.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by OstiaAntica on Friday March 11, 2011 @04:59PM (#2315090)
Florida is an interesting example. If development patterns there were left to market forces, the coasts of Florida would not be as significantly developed. Insurance costs would prohibit it. But the state's insurance regulations control prices and force inland homeowners to subsidize the insurance rates of coastal homeowners. Even worse, as insurance companies flee this distorted market, the state stepped in and now runs its own insurance company, which is building a massively underfunded risk portfolio. Literally the state of Florida is at risk of bankruptcy if another hurricane Andrew hits.

Another factor is, if the storm is big enough, the feds step in with FEMA and bailout people who are underinsured.

People living in Florida's hurricane alley pay nowhere near the cost of the risk of living there, and the result is overbuilding, and catastrophic property losses when the big one eventually does hit.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by sbov on Friday March 11, 2011 @08:45PM (#2315691)
Sorta like earthquakes in the SF bay area. Humans aren't rational. Considering relatively few people actually get earthquake insurance in California, I'm sure theres some level of the cognotive dissonance by many of those who agree with the main thrust of your point.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by dantheman on Saturday March 12, 2011 @03:08PM (#2317370)
They are rational in this case. They are getting others to cover the expense of their lifestyle. If someone is going to bail you out why would you bother not living as you'd like.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by stretchwithme on Friday March 11, 2011 @05:14PM (#2315137)
Which is also counteracted by simple self interest on the part of people that don't want to die in their homes. Some of us, even those who rent, do consider what might happen in a disaster and choose to live in sturdier structures.

Its true that government standards get tightened and relaxed, just as they do in banking. Which is probably a good reason not to rely upon them. They are dumbed-down, lowest common denominator standards anyway.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by electromagnetic on Friday March 11, 2011 @09:55PM (#2315829)
I'm from the UK where virtually all houses are double-brick walls. I moved to Canada and even though (or rather especially because) I work in the siding industry (side note: the irony of a man who had never seen 'siding' being a competent siding installer has been pointed out many times) I have a rule that I'll only live in a brick-walled house for the simple reason that everywhere has ridiculously large and old trees. These trees tend to fall in big storms. In the past year I've seen ~5 houses where a tree has fallen and is resting on the 1st story brick wall and I can only hope no one was in the bedrooms at the time.

In a recent storm I saw a tree that had visibly fallen against a fully brick house and had merely slid down the wall. The house stood almost immaculate (aside from the smeared wall), with a broken window and a crushed fence.

I have noticed that roofers here in Ontario are rather lax in competency here. My in-laws townhouse just got re-shingled and they lost an entire shingle sheet (it had never been touched by a nail). Their neighbour in the building lost two shingles, one above the other, on a joint in the plywood and above the black-paper. They're lucky the management company got on the ass of the roofers and got it fixed as we got hit by about 50mm that weekend.

It's not just roofers. We've done a lot of runs out to repair siding jobs. We've seen entire siding sheets that had been installed with a single nail. They'll do like 2-3 rows with barely more than a nail per sheet and then nail an entire row properly, but because there's so much weight on the row that's nailed correctly that heavy-winds can cause the sheets to stretch and then when a big gust hits it can pop the sheet out of the lock.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by ovi256 on Saturday March 12, 2011 @05:45AM (#2316577)
B-b-b-but the shards from the broken window could have hurt you just as well!

Seriously, being used to solid reinforced concrete or brick buildings, building shoddy wood structures covered with paper-thin siding in tornado or hurricane alleys and then crying your eyes out when the inevitable happens is almost funny.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by arethuza on Saturday March 12, 2011 @01:38PM (#2317176)
I'm in the UK and your comment made me realise that I've never lived in a brick building - they have all had stone walls. Having said that, I don't think I've ever lived anywhere that wasn't at least 150 years old (and I've lived in ten different properties).
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by notahacker on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:10PM (#2314467)
Much of it is down to the perception of imminent threat, with actually having the money to pay for measures to circumvent it being the next most important factor. Neither of those really existed in Haiti, or South East Asia. (The implication in the original article that the South East Asians weren't all that smart staying on the coast is pretty insulting when you've seen what the infrastructure on the SE Asian coast is actually like.)

Insurance companies can coexist perfectly with lax building codes so long as the market can bear higher premiums - if cost of damage multiplied by probability of earthquake over a time frame is lower than the increased cost of construction or remedial work then nothing gets done. Engineer cartels and political will to avoid preventable casualties at all costs are more important in saving lives here than the free market.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by WalterBright on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:39PM (#2314570)
One of the most effective things you can do when building a house to save your own life and property is to install a fire sprinkler system.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by drinian on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:24PM (#2314750)
What's interesting is that, fifty years ago, Japan started in largely the same economic place as SE Asia and China, but somehow managed to do things like enforce strict building codes before becoming the world's most developed nation.

Seems like a good illustration of just how insidious systemic corruption can be to the development of a nation.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by joe_the_user on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:55PM (#2314859)
My clock says fifty years ago was 1960.

"The Industrial Revolution in Japan occurred during Meiji period." [September 1868 through July 1912]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_period

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by angus77 on Friday March 11, 2011 @07:59PM (#2315593)
Japan was a highly industrialized and highly educated country that happened to be down in the dumps 50 years ago due to WWII. For instance, the city I live in (Shizuoka) was pretty much obliterated by napalm. Then they rebuilt. China's not rebuilding anything---they're building up a modern economy pretty much for the first time.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by cheez on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:08PM (#2314460)
I once read a passage on how insurance companies would be the biggest driving force in a completely free state. For example, you would insure your house against theft which would make it economical for them to create a kind of police force.

Not saying I'd like that, but interesting to see how other things already operate that way.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by notahacker on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:14PM (#2314480)
At the risk of letting this discussion degenerate into a debate over the libertarian definition of "free"...

It would also make it economical for insurance companies to quite literally be thieves, and uneconomical for individuals not to pay protection money to the most powerful (and likely also most expensive) insurance company.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by sethg on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:03PM (#2314664)
Aside from the problem of outright extortion, even the savviest financiers can underestimate low-probability risks (as the recent mortgage debacle shows). You would have cycles of price wars among insurers trying to attract customers by lowering premiums, until one larger-than-expected crime wave (or even a hiccup in the bond market) leaving major issuers unable to pay out their claims.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by joe_the_user on Friday March 11, 2011 @04:05PM (#2314901)
Aside from the problem of outright extortion, even the savviest financiers can underestimate low-probability risks (as the recent mortgage debacle shows).

While savvy investors may indeed underestimate low-probability risks, I take issue with any claim the mortgage bubble showed this. The sad end of that bubble was an extremely high probability event.

The main thing the debacle showed was the willingness of many people to believe fallacious arguments which made reference to claims about low probability events. Even there, the willingness of investors to believe that standard "this time it's different" line has been shown over and over again.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by stretchwithme on Friday March 11, 2011 @05:23PM (#2315158)
Yeah. Actually, the savviest investors were the ones betting that the bubble would pop. Of course, the majority thinks otherwise or there would have been no bubble. Savvy in this case was simply looking at the facts and not letting popular opinion keep you from acting.

And, for some, having friends in the government to bail out the fools who bet on the bubble growing forever so you can get paid.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by wisty on Friday March 11, 2011 @09:26PM (#2315768)
That's hard to say. People are often really scared by things like climate change (uncertain, huge impact), and less scared of everyday disasters.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/11/fear_and_overr...

Or table here: http://www.schneier.com/essay-170.html

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by OstiaAntica on Friday March 11, 2011 @05:15PM (#2315141)
The "underestimation" of mortgage risk was deliberate, the bankers were motivated by short-term bonus payouts.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by cheez on Friday March 11, 2011 @04:21PM (#2314974)
Sadly, this is already the case in the "War on Drugs". In another sense, we already do this but there is no competition.

A free society is not exclusive of a strong government to protect property rights and handle externalities economically. It's when they take liberties with their charge when things get bad.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by far33d on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:28PM (#2314766)
You mean the mob?
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by VladRussian on Friday March 11, 2011 @04:03PM (#2314895)
i think he meant government.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by johngalt on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:14PM (#2314708)
The original fire departments operated in this manner.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by Vivtek on Friday March 11, 2011 @01:06PM (#2314250)
Excellent point.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by brown9-2 on Friday March 11, 2011 @12:50PM (#2314172)
Sheesh. You'd think New Yorkers would get that.

I feel compelled to point out that not all journalists from the New York Times necessarily reside in New York. Based on his past articles and Wikipedia entry, Norimitsu Onishi seems to have been the NYT's Tokyo bureau chief at one point in time.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by muzz on Friday March 11, 2011 @12:38PM (#2314115)
There are many who would classify building codes as unnecessary and burdensome regulation, and would instead prefer to let the free market figure it out. One of their arguments for example would be that building codes increase the cost of building, thus leaving fewer people able to afford it. I'm not saying that I agree with that, just pointing out the opposing view.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by tel on Friday March 11, 2011 @12:53PM (#2314185)
As much as I often tend toward arguments for freer markets, it's pretty conclusively known that people are terrible at judging long-term risk.

Even with hedging of risks and liabilities involved in shoddy construction, even with information brokers in place to help people make informed decisions, even assuming ample construction of houses across the spectrum for all kinds of buyers, it definitely seems like without some kind of guiding hand that failure to consider long-term risks will lead to a lot of deaths.

What's worse is that a lot of the codes are in place to protect neighbors as well. Electrical wiring codes, for instance, are there to prevent fires. The hypothetical You might say that this turns into insurance and liability, but accurately judging the long-term risk and correlative damages sounds exactly like a government imposing regulations.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by Vivtek on Friday March 11, 2011 @12:57PM (#2314206)
Sure. (1) They've never seen a shanty town, and (2) they make the same argument about banking regulations.

Building codes are, in fact, the market response to earlier problems with lots of houses burning and falling down. The fact that later generations who grew up with houses not burning or falling down don't have the insight to know this is not evidence that they're right.

And they always make the argument that it would be good for the poor, and it's always bullshit. The poor don't benefit from dying periodically because some jerk made a quicker buck than he otherwise would have.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by yummyfajitas on Friday March 11, 2011 @01:17PM (#2314291)
The alternative to a shanty town is not a safe, well built suburb. It's homelessness or at least deeper poverty (pay more for housing = pay less for food).

You get shanty towns when people are too poor to afford anything else. People don't live in a shithole just for kicks, they do it because they have no choice. We shouldn't pretend this tradeoff doesn't exist.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by Retric on Friday March 11, 2011 @01:35PM (#2314355)
Shanty downs reduce the incentive to build high quality structures. Basically there is little incentive to build structures out of sink with the property value of the land they occupy. And the value of land is dominated by the value of the infrastructure around it.

You can build a surprisingly nice house for 1,000$ worth of materials, but there is no incentive when you build in the middle of a shanty town.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by yummyfajitas on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:01PM (#2314437)
Isn't the incentive to build a nice house for $1000 that you get to live in it?

Of course, that $1000 house costs a full year of wages from a person earning $3-4/day and spending almost all of it on essentials. And this ignores the fact that many shantytowns occur in areas where property rights are weakly enforced - build a nice house, and 20 people will show up claiming they own it. Even if you have the money, you might instead be spending it on your children's education or something of that nature.

Shantytowns are a result of poverty and nonexistent property rights. Building codes, even if they were enforced, would not magically enable shantytown dwellers to afford something better.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by Retric on Friday March 11, 2011 @11:17PM (#2315970)
It's not just a question of weakly enforced property writes. If you have the nicest shack you are far more likely to be robbed etc.

Social disorder feeds off it's self, when you live in a shanty town and are likely to be robbed it is much more reasonably to spend an extra 5$ on alcohol and get to enjoy it vs invest it in stuff that you might not keep for vary long, do that once a week for 5 years and your talking about 1,300$. Some of the hidden advantages of building codes are allowing people to build nicer houses without standing out from their community.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by yummyfajitas on Saturday March 12, 2011 @12:32PM (#2317081)
I think we are in violent agreement - by "weakly enforced property rights" I was referring to the fact that you are likely to be robbed of your your house (or perhaps the $500 you saved up when you are halfway done).

The hidden advantage of building codes you describe only applies when everyone can afford that $1000 house.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by code_duck on Friday March 11, 2011 @12:41PM (#2314132)
Unfortunately, the way the 'market figures it out' involves thousands of people dying in order to get the point across to 'the market'.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by mattlanger on Friday March 11, 2011 @12:54PM (#2314198)
Godwin's Law, HackerNews edition: as a non-tech policy discussion grows longer, the probability of a comment thread devolving into an argument between competing ideas of libertarian vs. interventionist market theologies approaches 1.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by grourk on Friday March 11, 2011 @01:06PM (#2314249)
Well, that's kind of the underlying point of the article and the discussion around it.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by mattlanger on Friday March 11, 2011 @01:12PM (#2314276)
Agreed, I was just trying to jocularly comment on the Things That Don't Exactly Belong On Hacker News aspect of it by pointing out that those conversations always end up in the same place.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by mturmon on Friday March 11, 2011 @10:42PM (#2315911)
And, in addition, these conversations tend to be rather shallow and un-anchored by fact. More an exhibition case for general philosophical predilections than a serious examination of the particular policy issue.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by sethg on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:07PM (#2314684)
The tendency to degenerate into arguments over libertarianism predates Hacker News. Ron(?) Newman proposed it as “Newman’s Corollary to Godwin’s Law” over ten years ago.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by orblivion on Friday March 11, 2011 @12:47PM (#2314157)
Do you suppose that the government anticipated the need for building codes before anybody ever died?
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by tomkarlo on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:49PM (#2314618)
There's a saying that the fire code is written in blood. Generally, most of the regulations are there because when they weren't, it resulted in some disaster that cost lives. If it didn't, there wouldn't be the political will to incur greater cost and complexity in construction.

That doesn't mean that the codes shouldn't be updated / refactored once in a while, but that's a pretty difficult thing to undertake, and there may not be political will...

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by Vivtek on Friday March 11, 2011 @01:05PM (#2314247)
I can't tell what rhetorical position you're trying to take, but I suspect, from my knowledge of building practices and codes in Richmond, Indiana from the 19th century to today, that the answer is that no, the government did not regulate building before it became all too clear that building needed to be regulated. All our old houses here are built like Sherman tanks - but that's because the ones that weren't built like Sherman tanks are long decayed and gone, and in some cases burned to the ground with loss of all on board. Electrification took a lot of people by surprise. I have some pretty horrible wiring in the attic myself (not live, though).
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by WalterBright on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:45PM (#2314600)
I've done some renovation work on old buildings. I recommend removing ALL of the old wire. There's nothing like looking at a shabby old wire and wondering if it is hot or not. Even worse, sometimes an idiot will try to reconnect that old wire, yes, I've seen them try it.

Rip all of it out.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by Vivtek on Friday March 11, 2011 @11:17PM (#2315971)
Oh, it's on the list, trust me. I've got fossil infrastructure in here over a hundred years old - in a way I feel like I should get some archaeologists in to catalog it before I get it all out.

The scary thing is that the basement lights are still on the old wiring - roughly 1920's vintage. Fortunately, no gaslights left, although I do have one fitting in the upstairs sitting room!

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by Semiapies on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:33PM (#2314788)
You mean like the people who died to instigate those very building codes?
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by code_duck on Saturday March 12, 2011 @02:02PM (#2317220)
Sure... so who reacted first, the government or the capitalists?
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by Semiapies on Monday March 14, 2011 @02:24PM (#2323723)
Considering how many codes (building codes, health codes, etc.) started out as efforts in the private sector by the likes of insurance companies and restaurant reviewers, it seems that answer is would be the capitalists, most of the time.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by code_duck on Wednesday March 16, 2011 @05:25AM (#2331402)
So, if the government removed those legal restrictions, do you think those industries would move to make their operations more safe, or less expensive for themselves in the short term?
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by svlla on Friday March 11, 2011 @01:33PM (#2314351)
there are many who would classify some building codes as unnecessary and some as absolutely essential, but for others the difference between the two is just too much to fathom... and as a result of their brains hurting so much, or from ulterior motives, they come up with something completely asinine: remove all regulations, they're too hard, and let's just find out what happens!

turns out, most of the time that's actually too much for everyone else to fathom, frankly.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by zyb09 on Friday March 11, 2011 @01:05PM (#2314248)
They are just pointing out, that if this had happened somewhere else it would been much more devastating and that Japan was good prepared for this. So I don't really know why you're complaining about the article.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by tel on Friday March 11, 2011 @12:38PM (#2314118)
It's a news non-sequitur though: Huge earthquake in Japan, structural engineers know what they're talking about.

Does anyone know if Japan has some equivalent to the Canadian Iron Ring[1]? I feel like examples like this drive home how it's even more meaningful if you live in the Ring of Fire. (Which would be an ideal name for such a ring)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by jakegottlieb on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:54PM (#2314639)
Look at the laws of Hammurabbi or Moses, the ancients even knew this. Building codes are an important part of developed society and this situation would have been significantly worse without a stringent set of codes.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by uvdiv on Friday March 11, 2011 @10:39PM (#2315904)
There's a qualitative difference between a law that mandates an action after something goes wrong (tort?), and a law that mandates an action before anything goes wrong, in order to prevent it from going wrong (most regulation). This is a critical difference to libertarian types: (as I understand) they advocate tort laws -- you are liable for the damage and injury you cause; but not most regulation -- government mandates actions to prevent you from causing damage or injury. Building codes are the latter.

So I disagree with your analogy with the Hammurabi laws. I looked up the text:

"If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death."

"[...] If it ruin goods, he shall make compensation for all that has been ruined, and inasmuch as he did not construct properly this house which he built and it fell, he shall re-erect the house from his own means."

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/hamcode.html

It actually doesn't contain anything like a building code -- no regulation for how to build houses, what materials and methods can be used, what standards should be met. It is only tort: how you construct a building, government does not care, but it will hold you liable if it fails. This is a solidly "libertarian" type of law: uphold property rights, but do not intervene otherwise, and do not tell people how to do things.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by va_coder on Friday March 11, 2011 @12:36PM (#2314108)
one man's red tape is another man's life saver