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Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by OstiaAntica on Friday March 11, 2011 @01:04PM (#2314239)
Building codes were on the books in Haiti too. There is a lot more to this question, including the presence of honest government, the ability of an economy to afford the code, and a healthy insurance market.

Insurance companies often require higher standards than building code demands.

Also, politically, the reason some societies have strict building codes is because there is a group-- insurance companies-- that have an economic incentive to push for stronger codes.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by dmlorenzetti on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:37PM (#2314560)
There's also political pressure in the opposite direction, from the construction industry.

I heard a lecture once by a structural engineer who had worked in hurricane alleys in Florida. He said there was a cycle of tightening up rules (for instance on the number of nails needed to hold down a roof) after big storms, then relaxing them as the years went by. Without a big storm to remind people just why the rules were tightened up, there was inevitable pressure to relax them in order to make it cheaper to build.

This is more off-topic, but another interesting thing he said was that you could get a sense of maximum local wind speeds by looking at airstream-type trailers. They are, as you might expect, extremely well engineered to resist the sorts of wind pressures you get at highway speeds, so winds of 60-80mph don't tend to rip the hide off them. But you get above a certain threshold, and they all tend to give way at once.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by OstiaAntica on Friday March 11, 2011 @04:59PM (#2315090)
Florida is an interesting example. If development patterns there were left to market forces, the coasts of Florida would not be as significantly developed. Insurance costs would prohibit it. But the state's insurance regulations control prices and force inland homeowners to subsidize the insurance rates of coastal homeowners. Even worse, as insurance companies flee this distorted market, the state stepped in and now runs its own insurance company, which is building a massively underfunded risk portfolio. Literally the state of Florida is at risk of bankruptcy if another hurricane Andrew hits.

Another factor is, if the storm is big enough, the feds step in with FEMA and bailout people who are underinsured.

People living in Florida's hurricane alley pay nowhere near the cost of the risk of living there, and the result is overbuilding, and catastrophic property losses when the big one eventually does hit.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by sbov on Friday March 11, 2011 @08:45PM (#2315691)
Sorta like earthquakes in the SF bay area. Humans aren't rational. Considering relatively few people actually get earthquake insurance in California, I'm sure theres some level of the cognotive dissonance by many of those who agree with the main thrust of your point.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by dantheman on Saturday March 12, 2011 @03:08PM (#2317370)
They are rational in this case. They are getting others to cover the expense of their lifestyle. If someone is going to bail you out why would you bother not living as you'd like.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by stretchwithme on Friday March 11, 2011 @05:14PM (#2315137)
Which is also counteracted by simple self interest on the part of people that don't want to die in their homes. Some of us, even those who rent, do consider what might happen in a disaster and choose to live in sturdier structures.

Its true that government standards get tightened and relaxed, just as they do in banking. Which is probably a good reason not to rely upon them. They are dumbed-down, lowest common denominator standards anyway.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by electromagnetic on Friday March 11, 2011 @09:55PM (#2315829)
I'm from the UK where virtually all houses are double-brick walls. I moved to Canada and even though (or rather especially because) I work in the siding industry (side note: the irony of a man who had never seen 'siding' being a competent siding installer has been pointed out many times) I have a rule that I'll only live in a brick-walled house for the simple reason that everywhere has ridiculously large and old trees. These trees tend to fall in big storms. In the past year I've seen ~5 houses where a tree has fallen and is resting on the 1st story brick wall and I can only hope no one was in the bedrooms at the time.

In a recent storm I saw a tree that had visibly fallen against a fully brick house and had merely slid down the wall. The house stood almost immaculate (aside from the smeared wall), with a broken window and a crushed fence.

I have noticed that roofers here in Ontario are rather lax in competency here. My in-laws townhouse just got re-shingled and they lost an entire shingle sheet (it had never been touched by a nail). Their neighbour in the building lost two shingles, one above the other, on a joint in the plywood and above the black-paper. They're lucky the management company got on the ass of the roofers and got it fixed as we got hit by about 50mm that weekend.

It's not just roofers. We've done a lot of runs out to repair siding jobs. We've seen entire siding sheets that had been installed with a single nail. They'll do like 2-3 rows with barely more than a nail per sheet and then nail an entire row properly, but because there's so much weight on the row that's nailed correctly that heavy-winds can cause the sheets to stretch and then when a big gust hits it can pop the sheet out of the lock.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by ovi256 on Saturday March 12, 2011 @05:45AM (#2316577)
B-b-b-but the shards from the broken window could have hurt you just as well!

Seriously, being used to solid reinforced concrete or brick buildings, building shoddy wood structures covered with paper-thin siding in tornado or hurricane alleys and then crying your eyes out when the inevitable happens is almost funny.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by arethuza on Saturday March 12, 2011 @01:38PM (#2317176)
I'm in the UK and your comment made me realise that I've never lived in a brick building - they have all had stone walls. Having said that, I don't think I've ever lived anywhere that wasn't at least 150 years old (and I've lived in ten different properties).
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by notahacker on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:10PM (#2314467)
Much of it is down to the perception of imminent threat, with actually having the money to pay for measures to circumvent it being the next most important factor. Neither of those really existed in Haiti, or South East Asia. (The implication in the original article that the South East Asians weren't all that smart staying on the coast is pretty insulting when you've seen what the infrastructure on the SE Asian coast is actually like.)

Insurance companies can coexist perfectly with lax building codes so long as the market can bear higher premiums - if cost of damage multiplied by probability of earthquake over a time frame is lower than the increased cost of construction or remedial work then nothing gets done. Engineer cartels and political will to avoid preventable casualties at all costs are more important in saving lives here than the free market.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by WalterBright on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:39PM (#2314570)
One of the most effective things you can do when building a house to save your own life and property is to install a fire sprinkler system.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by drinian on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:24PM (#2314750)
What's interesting is that, fifty years ago, Japan started in largely the same economic place as SE Asia and China, but somehow managed to do things like enforce strict building codes before becoming the world's most developed nation.

Seems like a good illustration of just how insidious systemic corruption can be to the development of a nation.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by joe_the_user on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:55PM (#2314859)
My clock says fifty years ago was 1960.

"The Industrial Revolution in Japan occurred during Meiji period." [September 1868 through July 1912]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_period

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by angus77 on Friday March 11, 2011 @07:59PM (#2315593)
Japan was a highly industrialized and highly educated country that happened to be down in the dumps 50 years ago due to WWII. For instance, the city I live in (Shizuoka) was pretty much obliterated by napalm. Then they rebuilt. China's not rebuilding anything---they're building up a modern economy pretty much for the first time.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by cheez on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:08PM (#2314460)
I once read a passage on how insurance companies would be the biggest driving force in a completely free state. For example, you would insure your house against theft which would make it economical for them to create a kind of police force.

Not saying I'd like that, but interesting to see how other things already operate that way.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by notahacker on Friday March 11, 2011 @02:14PM (#2314480)
At the risk of letting this discussion degenerate into a debate over the libertarian definition of "free"...

It would also make it economical for insurance companies to quite literally be thieves, and uneconomical for individuals not to pay protection money to the most powerful (and likely also most expensive) insurance company.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by sethg on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:03PM (#2314664)
Aside from the problem of outright extortion, even the savviest financiers can underestimate low-probability risks (as the recent mortgage debacle shows). You would have cycles of price wars among insurers trying to attract customers by lowering premiums, until one larger-than-expected crime wave (or even a hiccup in the bond market) leaving major issuers unable to pay out their claims.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by joe_the_user on Friday March 11, 2011 @04:05PM (#2314901)
Aside from the problem of outright extortion, even the savviest financiers can underestimate low-probability risks (as the recent mortgage debacle shows).

While savvy investors may indeed underestimate low-probability risks, I take issue with any claim the mortgage bubble showed this. The sad end of that bubble was an extremely high probability event.

The main thing the debacle showed was the willingness of many people to believe fallacious arguments which made reference to claims about low probability events. Even there, the willingness of investors to believe that standard "this time it's different" line has been shown over and over again.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by stretchwithme on Friday March 11, 2011 @05:23PM (#2315158)
Yeah. Actually, the savviest investors were the ones betting that the bubble would pop. Of course, the majority thinks otherwise or there would have been no bubble. Savvy in this case was simply looking at the facts and not letting popular opinion keep you from acting.

And, for some, having friends in the government to bail out the fools who bet on the bubble growing forever so you can get paid.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by wisty on Friday March 11, 2011 @09:26PM (#2315768)
That's hard to say. People are often really scared by things like climate change (uncertain, huge impact), and less scared of everyday disasters.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/11/fear_and_overr...

Or table here: http://www.schneier.com/essay-170.html

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by OstiaAntica on Friday March 11, 2011 @05:15PM (#2315141)
The "underestimation" of mortgage risk was deliberate, the bankers were motivated by short-term bonus payouts.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by cheez on Friday March 11, 2011 @04:21PM (#2314974)
Sadly, this is already the case in the "War on Drugs". In another sense, we already do this but there is no competition.

A free society is not exclusive of a strong government to protect property rights and handle externalities economically. It's when they take liberties with their charge when things get bad.

Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by far33d on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:28PM (#2314766)
You mean the mob?
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by VladRussian on Friday March 11, 2011 @04:03PM (#2314895)
i think he meant government.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by johngalt on Friday March 11, 2011 @03:14PM (#2314708)
The original fire departments operated in this manner.
Re:Japan's Strict Building Codes Saved Lives by Vivtek on Friday March 11, 2011 @01:06PM (#2314250)
Excellent point.