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Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by gambiting on Thursday May 07, 2020 @11:51AM (#23104386)
So I was recently looking at those as options for a very low budget video editing PC for someone, and yes, AMD destroys intel in raw CPU performance for the same price, however in those low-budget applications Intel has an upper hand - integrated GPU. With AMD you either have to go with the super crappy 3400G, which is a really poor CPU(but also very cheap), or for literally anything else + a dedicated GPU(which increases the cost significantly above Intel's offering). I was surprised to find out it's actually cheaper to go with say i5 9400 with an integrated GPU than with Ryzen 5 3600 + cheapest dedicated GPU. Yes the dedicated gpu will be better than intel's offering(marginally so) but if you only care about the CPU performance, don't have a lot of money and yet you need something to drive your monitor, then Intel has that integrated GPU to offer that AMD lacks.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by Exmoor on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:29PM (#23104836)
I think this is why you mostly see these cheap articles called out as being ideal for gaming rigs where you're highly likely to be adding a dedicated GPU anyway. Even a low end card like a $120 RX 570 is going to be 600+% faster than the built in Intel GPU: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-UHD-Graphics-630...

Even for video editing the math might change a bit since modern video editing apps can leverage GPU for rendering.

That said, I agree with the folks who say that AMD releasing desktop chips built on Zen 2 with built in GPU cannot come fast enough.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by SomeoneFromCA on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:36PM (#23104914)
$120 is sensitive amount of money for someone who wants to use a machine only for development. I am wondering why AMD would manufacture ultra low end potato cards which would cost like $35, only for office use. That would boost the sales big time.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by derefr on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:06PM (#23105340)
You could just buy older-gen AMD cards? They still work. Like Apple with their hardware, AMD sees no reason to produce new "value" SKUs, when you can just buy their 1–3-gen-old flagship cards for "value" prices.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by tolien on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:29PM (#23105621)
Even old designs on new semiconductor processes would be an improvement - a 3 generation old flagship card will be a bit cheaper to buy but will still have significant power consumption (ergo noise and heat) relative to the current generation.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by ciupicri on Thursday May 07, 2020 @02:33PM (#23106438)
They still work, until they don't because the vendor stops supporting them.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by FieryTransition on Thursday May 07, 2020 @02:51PM (#23106699)
I've yet to see a graphics card which stopped being supported in reasonable terms. Except if you count 3dfx or other really old stuff, at which point it gets silly. Or awesome, guess it's kinda retro by now.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by SomeoneFromCA on Thursday May 07, 2020 @08:32PM (#23110029)
Opencl is not supported on IVY BRIDGES anymore for example, although there is no technical obstacles to provide such support.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by SomeoneFromCA on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:29PM (#23105617)
Businesses would NEVER buy used cards. The are inefficient in terms of energy consumption, you never know if they were abused for mining and such, no warranty etc.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by wffurr on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:50PM (#23105869)
Parent didn't say "used" at all.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by morsch on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:46PM (#23105065)
PCI Express cards based on NVIDIA GeForce GT 710 are available new for <40 EUR. Presumably there's a large clearance and used market with much lower prices. None of that is an option?
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by gambiting on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:10PM (#23105399)
But that was kind of my point - Ryzen 5 3600 I can currently find for £180, while an i5 9400 is £198. If I now have to get a £30-40 dedicated GPU for the first one, Ryzen ends up being more expensive(not to mention that a super basic GPU like the GT710 does actually struggle driving a 4K screen, while the Intel 630 does not, but that's a minor point)
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by SomeoneFromCA on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:26PM (#23105597)
Not everyone is willing to buy old underpowered yet power hungry cards. You'd waste your time searching, you card would'not support 4k and VP9, no warranty. It gets especially expensive if you purchasing machines for some software developing shops - you want to have similar configuration on each machine, to save on IT support.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by morsch on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:58PM (#23105977)
You're not wrong, the GT 710 only does 4k at <=30 Hz, which makes it a terrible choice for general purpose computing at this point. It also doesn't do VP9 acceleration. The GT 1030 does these things, but it's also twice as expensive.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by lonelappde on Thursday May 07, 2020 @10:50PM (#23110920)
What is "general purpose" computing at 30+Hhz?

710 plays 1080p YouTube and non-graphics intensive games fine.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by pedrocr on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:58PM (#23105230)
I looked at this exact thing yesterday and those are currently the best option. They're also passively cooled which is nice. Having to use NVIDIA is annoying because of the story around Linux support. I mostly worry about these being old new stock and having poor reliability because of that but maybe it's fine.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by toast0 on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:19PM (#23105514)
New old stock is probably not a big deal for GPUs ... There's not a lot that's going to go bad on one that's just been stored for a couple years. From arcade collecting experience, big things that go bad in storage are batteries, and capacitors, and maybe dust accumulation. But a GPU doesn't have batteries, and capacitors usually take 10+ years to degrade in absence of heat from usage or bad chemicals (and heat makes that worse, so you'ld already know there was another bad cap scourge).

You can also avoid all that by getting a new design GT 710 https://www.anandtech.com/show/15713/asus-launches-an-old-gp...

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by ciupicri on Thursday May 07, 2020 @02:19PM (#23106262)
Except for a couple of very new cards, most GT 710 cards don't have a DispayPort output, only HDMI. I also wonder if they support HDCP 2.2.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by blattimwind on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:41PM (#23104970)
For modern video editors (aka "not Adobe") the CPU barely matters at all. I suspect "content creation needs strong CPU" is held up largely by Adobe, while more modern systems ditched CPUs for heavy lifting a long time ago or never used CPU for these purposes in the first place.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by tornato7 on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:12PM (#23105424)
What video editors are you talking about specifically?
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by shahan312 on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:38PM (#23105729)
DaVinci Resolve would be one such editor
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by kllrnohj on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:44PM (#23105806)
It still benefits from a faster CPU, at least when paired with a top-end GPU: https://www.pugetsystems.com/recommended/Recommended-Systems...
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by shahan312 on Thursday May 07, 2020 @03:03PM (#23106861)
Yep! CPU is definitely still important.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by ksec on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:13PM (#23105434)
As you suggested I think there is market for Desktop using the Ryzen Mobile 4000 Parts.

This used to be a thing where the Motherboard maker would sell the Board + Mobile Chip soldered. Not sure if you could still do that.

And it is not like Zen 2 Desktop APU aren't coming. Just a tad later. I think the current roadmap from AMD is pretty solid. Although I do wish their sales and marketing execution to be much better.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by Macha on Friday May 08, 2020 @01:55PM (#23117552)
There never was a 3600G or 3800G. So I'm imagine the next APU will also stop at a 4400G, which given its priced/placed so low in their stack, may not actually be better as a CPU than some Zen+ parts still hanging around like the 2600x or 1600AF, and almost certainly won't be as good as higher tier Zen2 parts like the 3700x or 4900H.

I also think there would be a market for a 4900H in a desktop form factor but I don't think AMD will make one.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by greggyb on Thursday May 07, 2020 @08:05PM (#23109850)
Aliexpress has some good mini-PCs based on mobile CPUs. It's been a while since I went shopping for one, so I'm not sure where they are, right now. Since these are typically <=15W parts, they can be passively cooled. Most are fanless, from what I've seen.

I run OpenBSD on an i5-5200U I picked up a few years ago (probably 2015, or early 2016). It serves as my router and runs a bunch of services for me. It lives in my basement next to the fiber line coming in from the road.

I wouldn't be surprised if an AMD -H part comes to market soon in this category.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by pedrocr on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:50PM (#23105119)
This is really annoying when building a NAS too. Great value CPUs with ECC support make the configurations great and then you need to spend 50-100€ to just get boot graphics even though the machine will be headless 99% of the time. Buying something second hand or from aliexpress defeats the purpose of trying to build something reliable. The market for low-end discrete GPUs has all but vanished thanks to Intel integrated GPUs. AMD should add a very basic GPU to every CPU part just good enough for boot graphics and consoles. All the motherboards already include the outputs themselves so only a little bit of silicon in the CPU is missing.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by derefr on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:08PM (#23105374)
> and then you need to spend 50-100€ to just get boot graphics even though the machine will be headless 99% of the time.

Buy a serial-over-USB patch cable; connect it from the NAS to your laptop; open an STTY emulator on the laptop. No boot graphics needed.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by toast0 on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:20PM (#23105534)
Still need something for boot graphics for the BIOS, unless non-server motherboards are coming with serial redirection default enabled and nobody mentioned it.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by kllrnohj on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:46PM (#23105834)
Set it up with a temporary card and then yank it out after it's setup. You don't tend to access the BIOS that much.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by ciupicri on Thursday May 07, 2020 @02:26PM (#23106352)
I wonder if it's possible to set up the UEFI firmware by setting some EFI variables from the operating system for example by running efivar [1].

[1]: https://github.com/rhboot/efivar

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by derefr on Thursday May 07, 2020 @02:29PM (#23106394)
I mean, why not use a server motherboard (i.e. one supporting AMT; not necessarily one that requires RDIMMs) if you're building a NAS? NASes are servers in terms of their workload. Take advantages of the features designed for server customers.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by pedrocr on Thursday May 07, 2020 @02:43PM (#23106581)
Availability and cost naturally. A big part of the appeal here is the low price point for a great spec bare-bones home server using these consumer parts.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by toast0 on Thursday May 07, 2020 @04:03PM (#23107582)
Mostly cost. The board itself, but also server boards are often hard to find for desktop sockets, so that drives cost for the CPU as well. But, if I get a server board, maybe I'm going to get one with IPMI, and those usually have serial consoles and some limited VGA for KVM over IP too.

I could afford a $800 server project, but I'd rather spend $300.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by pedrocr on Thursday May 07, 2020 @02:21PM (#23106290)
Had no idea that would even boot. I prefer being able to just plug in a monitor but that's an interesting option.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by jeffbee on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:46PM (#23105835)
What about the core i3-8100 with ECC and IGP? The real problem with building a NAS out of these low-end parts is finding the motherboard where ECC actually works. For Ryzen it's roulette, you just have to order one and see if ECC works at all; for Intel you can count on a few vendors but the motherboards cost twice as much as the CPUs and/or have inconvenient shapes.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by pedrocr on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:58PM (#23105965)
The point was to use one of these great AMD parts... Motherboard support doesn't seem to be a problem, Asrock lists all their range as supported and has everything you might need. The actual annoying part about motherboards is that some older stuff is technically compatible but you need an old CPU to upgrade the BIOS before you can install one of the newer ones.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by arvinsim on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:09PM (#23105388)
A comment above refers to the GT 710 as a cheap option new.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by pedrocr on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:36PM (#23105715)
That's the 50 in 50-100€. At this level that's around one step up in CPU within the AMD range that you're wasting on an old GPU just to get the thing to boot.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by bane on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:33PM (#23104876)
There's an important market segment though that these will suit well. People on budgets doing upgrades of cheap systems. They'll likely continue to use their old video card, which will probably be better than Intel's integrated GPU, but will swap out the motherboard and CPU (and maybe RAM).

When I was much younger, and on much more of a budget, these "computers of theseus" were my main rigs for a long time. The meta-game was to try to see how few parts you had to swap out from piecemeal upgrade to piecemeal upgrade.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by leetcrew on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:13PM (#23105425)
> When I was much younger, and on much more of a budget, these "computers of theseus" were my main rigs for a long time. The meta-game was to try to see how few parts you had to swap out from piecemeal upgrade to piecemeal upgrade.

I still do it like this, despite having plenty of money to spend on hardware. if it ain't broke...

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by gameswithgo on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:44PM (#23105800)
Zen2 desktop cpus with integrated gpus are the next thing AMD will be releasing.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by greggyb on Thursday May 07, 2020 @08:29PM (#23110006)
Few thoughts for your friend. This is not a "you're wrong" post, but a "here are some options to consider, with different tradeoffs."

1. The AMD R3-3300X is neck and neck with the Intel i5-9600K in most productivity benchmarks in the GN test suite.[0] The 9600K is a step up from the 9400 you're looking at, so you could likely do an R3 build. With the clock differences, it's likely that the R3 would pull ahead of the 9400. The processor is $120 MSRP, but not available just yet. Also, you'll likely want to pair it with a B550 motherboard. Nevertheless, with a cheapest-available graphics card, this should be price-competitive with an i5-9400. The future upside is huge, as you could get a beast R9-3950X in a couple years when the price has come down a lot.

2. The AMD R5-1600AF is actually a Zen+ part, and MSRPs at $85. The theme of the entire 3300X review video I linked is to get one of these if you can. Availability is limited and resellers are marking up significantly. AMD is committed to providing more, though.

3. Depending on where your price/performance threshold is, dropping to an R5-2600 brings your price difference to $26 ($224 vs $250 for CPU+mobo and CPU+mobo+graphics, respectively). This should edge out the 1600AF mentioned above, and regularly beat the i5-9400.[1][2]

Of the options above, I'd lean toward the R3-3300X. This gives future expansion to a 16-core monster that is a chart topper for productivity workloads. You cannot make that jump with Intel, because their competitor is the 10980XE on a different chipset than the i5. Additionally, Ryzen 3000 and B550 supports PCIe gen 4, for double the bandwidth. Again, this is a future expansion option that you don't get with Intel.

My preference is definitely subjective, and there are good reasons to go for the Intel i5, first among them that you can buy the system today, instead of in a month.

[0] GN 3300x review: https://youtu.be/NM2fFpzPKPg?t=1063

[1] Cheapest i5: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/B3pFtp

[2] Cheapest R5 2600: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/HttVyk

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by greggyb on Thursday May 07, 2020 @11:37PM (#23111172)
An update. Phoronix's benchmarking includes the i5-9400F, which is the no-iGPU version of the Intel chip. F chips are typically expected to edge ahead of their iGPU siblings. The 3300X beats the 9400F in nearly every single benchmark (I think two or three total exceptions).

Additionally, the 9400F seems to struggle to even beat the 8400. Their composite scores are insignificantly different. Perhaps this is why a 9400 is cheaper than an 8400....

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd-ryze...

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by bryanlarsen on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:05PM (#23104550)
Yes, the article expresses some surprise that the new Ryzen 3 chips are based on binned Ryzen 5/7 3000's, rather than on the new and exciting Ryzen Mobile 4000's which do have integrated graphics and are benchmarking very well. Hopefully some Ryzen Mobile based desktop chips are coming soon too.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by SomeoneFromCA on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:39PM (#23104949)
Hopefully some inventive friends from Aliexpress retrofit these mobile cpus for AM4 socket, like they did with mobile i7s.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by toast0 on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:41PM (#23105764)
If you wait a little longer, AMD is expected to release these as Desktop APUs; I don't think I've seen a comitted release window yet, though. My guess is sometime q3, but I would love for it to be sooner.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by gautamcgoel on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:28PM (#23104817)
I totally agree. A lot of these CPU review articles are aimed at gamers and hence ignore integrated graphics entirely, since it's assumed you'll go out and buy a nice discrete graphics card.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by derefr on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:02PM (#23105292)
I would presume that, if you have a low-budget application with high scale (e.g. you're a company designing a NAS, or other "Turing-complete but still embedded" system), then you'd ignore both Intel and AMD and look at ARM-based SoC solutions, no? You can get significantly better integrated graphics, for cheaper, on e.g. Nvidia's Tegra platform. Thus why Nintendo—ROI penny-pinchers to a fault—chose it.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by glram on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:30PM (#23105636)
Definitely. If you're going for something integrated, Intel/AMD (and maybe x86 in general) are out of the question.

For a PC, though, using ARM can be tough if you're trying to use Windows. I'm not sure how many Windows programs have ARM binaries.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by XzAeRosho on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:00PM (#23104484)
You still have the Ryzen 5 3400G with integrated graphics
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by jeffbee on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:15PM (#23104659)
This is the problem with AMD's intentionally misleading marketing. The Ryzen 5 3400G is an APU with a Zen+ CPU. The CPU core that's actually good, that everybody wants, is the Zen2. The Zen+ is pretty slow. It has performance comparable to $99 Intel CPUs from last year.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by zrm on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:43PM (#23105023)
Can you name this Intel CPU which is as fast, has an iGPU and costs $99?

Zen2 is faster than Zen+, but Zen+ isn't that slow.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by jeffbee on Thursday May 07, 2020 @12:57PM (#23105208)
No, I think the nearest thing is probably the $140 Core i3-9100. But look at Anandtech's comparison of the Zen and Zen2: at the same clock speed and core count, Zen2 stomps all over Zen. It's a much slower CPU. https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/2333?vs=2590
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by zrm on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:21PM (#23105536)
> No, I think the nearest thing is probably the $140 Core i3-9100.

Which has approximately equivalent CPU performance and a slower iGPU than a 3200G which costs $40 less.

> https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/2333?vs=2590

The 2400G is Zen1. The APUs use different numbering. The 2500X is Zen+:

https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/2259?vs=2590

Zen2 is something like 15% faster give or take. Zen+ was never really that slow.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by jeffbee on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:28PM (#23105611)
If by "15% ±" you meant 30-50% then we agree. I don't see any individual results (other than GPU-limited games) where the Zen2 is not at least 15% faster, and on most of them it's at least 20% faster, on specific relevant workloads like 7-Zip compression the newer part is almost twice as fast, while drawing 2/3rds the power.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by zrm on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:34PM (#23105689)
It's ~6% faster for GIMP, <4% faster on AES encoding, ~10% faster on Cinebench ST, ~11% faster on Blender, ~3% faster on Luxmark etc. It does really well on 7zip in particular. If you spend all day unzipping things you should be very interested in Zen2.

Also, the 3100 and 2500X are both 65W.

Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by jeffbee on Thursday May 07, 2020 @01:36PM (#23105714)
You're right, I looked at the wrong link.
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by NullPrefix on Thursday May 07, 2020 @08:03PM (#23109839)
This benchmark compares Zen against Zen2, not Zen+ against Zen2
Re:The AMD Ryzen 3 3300X and 3100 CPU Review: A Budget Gamin... by AlfeG on Friday May 08, 2020 @02:42AM (#23112038)
For this reason, I bought used cheapest GPU with 3 outputs. More than happy.