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Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by supernova87a on Saturday May 02, 2020 @01:44AM (#23049588)
I'll make another observation about the landscape of restaurants.

You may notice that in Europe, Asia, the demographics of restaurants are noticeably different from the US. There are far more hole-in-the-wall mom-and-pop restaurants in those places compared to the US, running a small and seemingly profit-thin but subsistence restaurant for the neighborhood. Think of a suburban neighborhood in Madrid or Rome, where a small restaurant is just as common as a tabacchi / corner convenience store.

I believe (have not seen a careful study yet) that the rent-seeking / zoning policies of our cities in the US increase greatly the cost of running restaurants. And incentivize / prohibit anything but large commercial / chain places from surviving as a rule. It makes it very hard for small experiments or small-time mom-and-pop shops to survive and stay in a community for decades at the low profits those places are willing to accept. There may also be something about the small square footage of typical shops in such cities being unfavorable towards chain restaurants which seem to require a certain size (like hotel properties).

The landscape of our policies for cities, neighborhoods, plus the way they interact with our corporations, directly translates into the kinds of restaurants that we get as a result.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by bobthepanda on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:14AM (#23049723)
Where I live in Seattle, there is a lot of new dense neighborhoods going up. And many of these large apartments have ground-level retail, which is supposed to be that urban planning magic sauce for walkable neighborhoods.

The problem is, most of these retail spaces are actually vacant, despite massive job and housing growth. But why? Because the retail spaces are simply too large. These spaces are big enough to seat 100-200 people, but most restaurants, even popular ones, will not seat that many people most of the time, so they end up paying rent on real estate that is not being fully utilized the vast majority of the time, and then they go belly up because they can't afford the rent.

One recent trend that has kind of taken us back to the roots of small restaurant square footage is the food hall, where many small setups share one large communal seating area. Another is the food truck, with no seating, minimal rent costs, and the entire operation fits in a parking space. There is a great irony when I've been to a food truck serving food out of the parking lot of an under-occupied strip mall, because the strip mall spaces are simply too large.

It also doesn't help that mom-and-pops are not exactly the most attractive tenants for commercial lending; better to ink a long-term contract with a sure bet like a bank branch or a national chain.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by toohotatopic on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:54AM (#23049909)
Too large shouldn't be a problem.

Every large space can be trimmed down to a small space. If there are too many vacant shops in an area, and there would be a market for smaller shops, I would assume that tenants add walls and rent out the smaller space. Even if that walled-off space is unused, tenants would make more money than not renting out at all.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by AnthonyMouse on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:58AM (#23049919)
That's assuming the zoning allows the space to be subdivided.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by m_mueller on Saturday May 02, 2020 @04:18AM (#23050270)
I think you may have boiled the problem down to its essence. Search for Japanese vs. US zoning laws to see the two extremes. European countries tend to be somewhere in the middle. Same pattern can be observed with restaurant sizes and their variety.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by remarkEon on Saturday May 02, 2020 @05:16AM (#23050490)
Yep, it's this. Zoning laws in US urban centers are an absolute nightmare to navigate. If you have the time (and the gall) consider looking up the zoning laws that exist across what a normal person would consider "Los Angeles".
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by watt on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:58AM (#23050187)
Do you live in some kind of dictatorship? In a democracy there are tools how a community makes it allowed.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by bobthepanda on Saturday May 02, 2020 @01:59PM (#23053600)
In reality, democracy can be commandeered by well-organized groups of people that vote as a bloc. At the local level, this means that well-connected homeowner associations wield the power to ban density and commercial activity near where they live.

The oft-cited counterexample to US restrictive zoning, Japan's permissive zoning, works because in Japan zoning type is decided at the national level and there are only 12 types of zoning that define maximum nuisance (so a blacklist). US zoning gets extremely nitty-gritty and is functionally a whitelist.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by gladskdks on Saturday May 02, 2020 @06:49AM (#23050946)
Yes. It's rules by the God Emperor Money II.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by bobthepanda on Saturday May 02, 2020 @12:46PM (#23052976)
Kitchens need quite a lot (ventilation, gas hookups, water, electricity for the kitchen in the right places).

You can't just throw up some false walls and call it a day. Even if you could, your landlord's lease terms probably don't let you sublease like that.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by aaronbrethorst on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:49AM (#23049888)
South lake union? Gonna be even more of a ghost town with the amazon ‘wfh til October’ directive.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by anovikov on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:51AM (#23049896)
Almost reminded me the picture from the early Middle Ages when whole population of the Roman city now fit in a market square...
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by thatcat on Sunday May 03, 2020 @12:41PM (#23060100)
A tax on under utilized spaces could result in reduced rents that make the space usable anyway.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by stock_toaster on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:11AM (#23049718)
Maybe food trucks will just become more pervasive. They _were_ pretty common in portland for a while, but not sure how many of them will survive. ;_;
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by pbourke on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:08AM (#23049957)
This will no doubt be an unpopular opinion, but I’m not a fan of food trucks as an everyday dining experience. Not super impressed with the average food quality, and the “stand around waiting for 20 minutes” experience is also not ideal. Crowded food truck clusters are super annoying to me.

For the odd meal at a festival or park or whatnot - sure. But every day? not so much.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by edaemon on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:56AM (#23050179)
As an everyday experience I would agree, but food truck pods are great for groups of people since everyone can pick what they want.

Food trucks were really meant to make use of an empty lot while the owner waited for development opportunities but they took on a life of their own. Here in Portland people are very attached to them, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by zhoujianfu on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:12AM (#23049980)
Yeah, I was pretty excited about things like "Food Truck Tuesday" in our neighborhood, but it didn't take long to realize 90%+ of them are pretty bad, slow, and unhealthy.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by kebman on Saturday May 02, 2020 @04:16AM (#23050265)
"Crowded food truck clusters are super annoying to me." This tells me that there is indeed a market for food trucks. If this annoys you, then nothing is stopping you from shopping somewhere else. :) The alternative would be to get real estate close to these clusters and open up a "real" and high quality restaurant. Though my guess is, in these clusters, people are busy, they're not looking to sit down, and just want a snack while on the move to some other point of interest. I see these kinds of trucks in tourist-heavy areas, or in shopping areas, so that should give you a clue. The patrons are only looking for a quick snack, and not a Michelin star experience.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by kebman on Saturday May 02, 2020 @07:01PM (#23055567)
Oh my, looks like I hit a nerve... Punishing people for using good arguments when talking about freedom and free trade is the way to go, guys! :) That was sarcasm btw. You guys remind me of Chinese authoritarians sometimes, with this so-called "karma" social credit score. I guess it only counts when you have the same opinion as all the other sheep in here.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by edmundsauto on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:24PM (#23054216)
As a counterpoint, SF has some of the strictest zoning in the country. It has very few chains, from my experience. Most places where I know the owners, they are just normal people scratching out their existence.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by supernova87a on Saturday May 02, 2020 @08:07PM (#23055882)
Unfortunately, I observe that SF typically does it backwards. They (the peculiar political process there) identifies the business or person they like, and puts up rules to protect that specific thing. Rather than create the broader incentives and guidelines that lead to that business being made possible. It produces a lot of bad side effects.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by alexashka on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:31AM (#23049805)
I want small restaurants as much as I want shoe makers instead of automated Nike factories.

The way forward is not by enabling people who can serve 500 people/day to exist when we can have a robot serving 5,000.

We want automation, we want people doing what they choose to do because we've automated away things they had to do, such as work for a living.

The way to get there is more automation.

Restaurant cooks/servers are the equivalent of hand washing clothes. We have washing machines - technology has enabled humanity to do a great deal more with their life, let's move in that direction please.

The other piece of the puzzle is this - technology alone is not enough - technology alone is why we have nuclear weapons and idiots with nuclear codes. The time will come soon, when we have to have a frank conversation about the number of idiots inhabiting this Earth and that it's not climate change, it's idiots, that will be the end of all of us if this keeps up.

Anyhow :)

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by pbourke on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:16AM (#23049996)
We have this today - McDonald’s, Chipotle, Jimmy John’s, Dominos, etc. Sure there are some humans, but there is also an optimized supply chain and in the case of McDonald’s, a fair bit of automation.

> Restaurant cooks/servers are the equivalent of hand washing clothes

Both are a skilled trade. Can you not tell the difference between the best meal you’ve ever eaten at a restaurant and a cup of fried cheese balls from Sonic? If not, then your post is entirely logical.

> technology has enabled humanity to do a great deal more with their life

More than cook good food for people? Are you surprised that there are people who dream from a young age of cooking, or cutting hair, or working on a construction site? That people have different skills, aptitudes and interests?

I’d rather see people flourish while doing what they love to do - especially if that thing is as central to the human experience as preparing a good meal.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by goldenkey on Saturday May 02, 2020 @07:55AM (#23051215)
Actually, some of the best food I've had has been frozen but cooked correctly, ie. using convection. For example, Healthy Choice used to have a Marsala Pasta steamer in a balsamic wine reduction. If microwaved properly it was tastier than 90% of the expensive pasta meals I've had at 4 and 5 star Italian restaurants. And I live in NYC so I know good food.

That said, it's very possible healthy choice employs very skilled chefs to either do small batch production or has figured out a way to do large batches without sacrificing quality.

Their microwave steamer container technology also factors in, since most microwave meals taste bad due to excess moisture.

I don't think automation and quality have to be mutually exclusive. The same goes for spirits. Some small batch Icelandic vodka I had was absolutely horrible compared to the mass produced Grey Goose, despite costing more.

I see the benefits of covid. Culling the inefficiencies in our markets. Shale fracking, unnecessary luxury services like mid-tier restaurants, etc..

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by gorgoiler on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:43AM (#23049859)
Automating society paves the way for people to do creative work about which they truly care.

One of those things is doing 20 covers of handmade tagliatelle every night.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:17AM (#23050000)
> Automating society paves the way for people to do creative work about which they truly care.

Automation alone certainly does not guarantee this.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by walterbell on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:42AM (#23049850)
Great restaurants are like art, in the eyes of patrons and creators. They will continue to find each other among the robotic masses.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by vnorilo on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:34AM (#23050098)
True, and even if the meal is not "Tate modern", even a workday lunch can make me feel that someone actually cared and reinvigorate my soul in the middle of work. Most of the time I will choose to pay a premium in time or money instead of cheapest/convenient-est.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by kebman on Saturday May 02, 2020 @04:21AM (#23050281)
Plot twist: Tate Modern is all about the industrialization of art.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by barrkel on Saturday May 02, 2020 @11:22AM (#23052246)
Art, yes - theatre especially, but also visual, along with the obvious of taste and smell.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by 2muchcoffeeman on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:23AM (#23050034)
* Restaurant cooks/servers are the equivalent of hand washing clothes. We have washing machines - technology has enabled humanity to do a great deal more with their life, let's move in that direction please.*

Maybe you might as well drink Soylent. Washing clothes or dishes is a chore. Cooking food is a social event and lots of people like cooking and creating food.

If anything automation of mundane tasks will lead to more food being cooked by humans. I’ll also eat my hat if you can get a robot to cook an 8 course degustation.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by watwut on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:01AM (#23049928)
The robot restaurant is something completely different then restaurant for date or familly dinner.

The robot restaurant is for lunch during work - you care about price and speed and nutrition. That is it. Self service checkout is fine. SittIng close to other people does not matter.

For date, meetups with friends, celebration or filly dinner I want calmer, more intimate place.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by JoeAltmaier on Saturday May 02, 2020 @11:40AM (#23052347)
Wow that sounds like 10's of thousands of opportunities to meet, network, whatever, squandered. I always choose a quiet conversational place for lunch, and always with somebody. If not somebody on my project right now, then a contact I haven't visited with in a while.

There is powerful stuff in sharing lunch. Especially if you pay.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by barrkel on Saturday May 02, 2020 @11:24AM (#23052256)
Lunch during work is a great chance to add some joy to the middle of your day. You spend so much time at work, why not leaven it with something delightful?

(I understand the expense arguments, but I think it's a false economy, without specific goals, and isn't worth much regard on software engineering salaries.)

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by watwut on Saturday May 02, 2020 @01:15PM (#23053227)
Sometimes yes, other times you just want to eat. But even if you look for nice place, itis different.

Date, familly dinner, celebration and similar all take time. You are comfortable being there for two hours. With lunch, you want be shorted then that.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by GeoAtreides on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:48AM (#23049885)
Even in The Culture there were restaurants, some people just like making and serving food
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by saati on Saturday May 02, 2020 @05:48AM (#23050628)
Even cpt. Sisko's dad ran a restaurant on a world where anyone can walk up to the nearest wall and ask for the very best of any food.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by deathgrips on Saturday May 02, 2020 @04:25AM (#23050301)
Right now restaurant work is too complicated for robots to do it as accurately and quickly as humans. There are hundreds of micro-skills that a prep and line cook needs to perform very well in a restaurant and most of those are specific to the individual restaurant. Mcdonalds will be the first to be automated since they serve the same stuff at every location in America, but expect regular restaurants to be the last places to be automated.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by andybak on Saturday May 02, 2020 @05:02AM (#23050447)
This reads like it was written by someone to whom food is simply a chore that is imposed on them rather than one of lives great creative pleasures.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by trophycase on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:48AM (#23049882)
Work is what gives life meaning for many people. You can't just say we'll automate most productive tasks then expect everyone to be mozart or do yoga all day or something. That's not a future I want.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by ryukafalz on Saturday May 02, 2020 @10:05AM (#23051851)
There’s plenty to do even if you’re not a talented musician: volunteering for a good cause, inventing, crafting...

I strongly suspect that if the most tedious jobs were automated away, so long as people had their needs met, they’d find something much more meaningful than the work they were doing before. I know I sure would!

“So long as they have their needs met” is a big assumption, though, and one that wouldn’t hold up in our current society.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by AnthonyMouse on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:02AM (#23049934)
The same things that are preventing small restaurants also stand in the way of that sort of thing. If you could install a machine like a kiosk where people walk up to it, press buttons and insert money and out comes a hot sandwich made to order, people would be renting space to install them all over the place.

But the machine doesn't take up that much space. If the zoning requires you to rent 200 times that much space, the economics go away. So you still have to solve the original problem.