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Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by triceratops on Friday May 01, 2020 @11:58PM (#23049039)
> Drinks for instance cost us more than at the grocery store — but we can’t exactly go get 20 cases of pop per day, so we don’t have much choice.

I didn't understand this. It may not be feasible to buy 100 cases of pop at a regular grocery store, but isn't Costco/Sam's Club set up for that?

I do think it comes down ultimately to real estate prices. Major metros in North America have gradually become unaffordable for the middle-class over the past 20 years. It's not surprising that it's the same story for small businesses such as restaurants. Businesses have to pay workers more (because housing is expensive) and they have to pay their landlord more (because commercial rents are high). All that profit margin is ending up in landlords' pockets.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by mark-r on Saturday May 02, 2020 @12:42AM (#23049292)
Landlords, like any other business, are out to maximize their profits. Their goal is to capture 100% of the profit of businesses that rent from them. Given that the mechanisms for doing this are very crude, there's a chance that they could be getting 101% or more and that spells death for your business.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by wendyshu on Saturday May 02, 2020 @08:45AM (#23051434)
So with profits dropping they should lower rent?
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by IAmGraydon on Saturday May 02, 2020 @01:05AM (#23049392)
A landlord’s goal is to capture 100% of their tenants profits? That’s quite a misinformed statement. Their goal is to create sustainable, long term income on their investments. Taking everything they can from their tenants would not foster sustainability. I’m also really curious about your last sentence. Can you elaborate?
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by mark-r on Saturday May 02, 2020 @01:16AM (#23049448)
The goal is to maximize income, and the maximum you can get sustainably is 100% of your lesee's profits. If you take less then you're leaving money on the table. If you take more than that (e.g. 101%) they will inevitably go out of business.

If you guess wrong and drive a place out of business, your hope is that the next tenant is more profitable and can handle the overhead. Chain restaurants are typically pretty good about this because they know their revenue potential accurately ahead of time.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by opo on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:18AM (#23049742)
>...The goal is to maximize income, and the maximum you can get sustainably is 100% of your lesee's profits.

If you hypothetically take 100% of the profits of the renter, they won't be in business long term. There likely will be a gap between when they stop paying rent and you are able to evict them. There will also likely be a gap between that point and when you get a new renter, particularly when your rent is so high.

I agree that the goal is to maximize income, but trying to take 100% of the profits of the renter is not a way to maximize long term income.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by chii on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:19AM (#23049749)
> the maximum you can get sustainably is 100% of your lesee's profits.

only if there's a monopoly on real estate. I find that unlikely.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by Digory on Saturday May 02, 2020 @12:35AM (#23049242)
And yet I'm not sure it's a smart deal to be a commercial landlord. These "Retail space per capita" graphs have been eye-popping for awhile.[0]

The landlords that win seem to be the landlords who play the political subsidy and tax games, not just good developers.

[0]

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by mark-r on Saturday May 02, 2020 @12:47AM (#23049316)
My favorite is the landlords that refuse to lower their rents to attract tenants. They got a loan to buy the property, and the loan is backed by the revenue potential of the property. If rents decrease, the revenue potential also decreases and the lenders require the property owners to make up the difference. It produces a huge incentive for a property to go unrented at a high price rather than rented at a low price.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by tomatocracy on Saturday May 02, 2020 @04:00AM (#23050191)
Large landlords who own an entire street/area in upmarket or aspiring parts of a city also worry about low end tenants dragging the rest down. Completely rationally they'd rather have 60% occupancy at 2x the average rent than 95% at 1x and they know that high end retailers will pay a lot less (if anything) for a site next to a McDonald's (for example) than for a site next to another high end retailer.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by JackFr on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:26AM (#23049779)
I’m familiar with the argument but I think people overstate the importance of unrented high price to refinancing. Banks (and CMBS investors) don’t simply look at market rent levels in isolation. They also look at percent vacant and length of tenancy. Except over the very short term, no one is being deceived.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by mdtusz on Saturday May 02, 2020 @09:51AM (#23051778)
I can't say that it's specifically the case, but in Montreal, there's been an ever increasing number of vacant commercial spaces - seemingly because they know that "eventually" some BigCo will come along and be willing to pay the extremely high rent. As anecdata, there's a corner space on the ground floor of Duluth and St. Laurent that's been vacant for well over a year - maybe even two. It's pricing out smaller businesses, and even though the space is available and empty, it's just unaffordable and priced far above the true market value.

We don't want more A&W's and Starbucks, but that's what eventually happens here. The only places that survive are bars.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by mark-r on Saturday May 02, 2020 @01:21PM (#23053287)
Refinancing isn't the answer, because the borrowers will need to make up the difference between the old value and new value in cash. That's what makes this such a strong incentive, where it's worth it to leave a property unrented for a long time. If there's no refinancing, there's no reevaluation and no big lump of cash to be produced - everything just continues on as it did before.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by RandallBrown on Saturday May 02, 2020 @01:36AM (#23049539)
I'm not sure why you couldn't buy 20 cases of pop per day at a big grocery store. There's more than 20 cases of each flavor at my local grocery store and there's lots of other grocery stores nearby that have the same selection.

Also, you're right. Costco exists too.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by gladskdks on Saturday May 02, 2020 @05:24AM (#23050525)
A few reasons:

One: the shop often wouldn't let you buy up their whole supply

Two: there are likely other restaurants in the area, so that's 20*N boxes a day

Three: lots of countries have resale laws that prevent this

Four: that's a lot of time to spend every day when you can get a single delivery every week / two weeks instead

Five: the delivery often includes the collection of the used bottles (when using glass) and that otherwise can cost a lot

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by Dylan16807 on Saturday May 02, 2020 @11:04PM (#23056585)
> One: the shop often wouldn't let you buy up their whole supply

Any half-sane shop would love the giant piles of money you're spending and negotiate a way to get you a nice big supply with an even easier pickup process than filling a cart.

> Two: there are likely other restaurants in the area, so that's 20N boxes a day

Even better. Imagine a shop saying they don't* want to ramp up to selling ten times as much product out of aisle seven with no extra work beyond staying in stock.

> Three: lots of countries have resale laws that prevent this

If you buy a shelf-stable food, you can't resell it? Why would a law like this ever exist?

> Four: that's a lot of time to spend every day when you can get a single delivery every week / two weeks instead

This is a better reason, but you'd think the huge volume of the sale would get you at least a mild price improvement.

> Five: the delivery often includes the collection of the used bottles (when using glass) and that otherwise can cost a lot

If it costs money to set things out for recycling, the local government is doing a bad job.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by Aeolun on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:49AM (#23049886)
This doesn't make sense in the first place. Don't suppliers charge lower rates to restaurants exactly because they'd otherwise just go to the supermarket?
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by dehrmann on Saturday May 02, 2020 @12:33AM (#23049230)
> real estate prices

For older, less popular restaurants, maybe, but a salad at Sweetgreen is, what, $10-$15? And that's fast casual. Clearly overhead is being passed on to customers.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by Rebelgecko on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:32AM (#23050085)
That part seemed strange to me. According to people I know that have worked in food/beverage industry, the most expensive part of a cup of Coke at a movie theater or fast food restaurant is the actual cup itself. The liquid inside the cup costs pennies.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by mtrower on Saturday May 02, 2020 @09:48AM (#23051760)
Syrup is cheap, water is cheap, C02 is cheap... for a fountain drink, you are indeed correct. The margins here are crazy.

I assumed this vendor was selling bottled or canned soft drinks. Why that is, I couldn't say (just as I couldn't say why they're renting a dishwasher, why they're paying a linen cleaning service rather than purchasing a washing machine, etc...).

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by veggieburglar on Saturday May 02, 2020 @10:18AM (#23051921)
It’s very common to rent a dishwasher. High volume dishwashers break down all the time and need very regular servicing and cleaning. At every establishment I have been associated with (wine industry) I’ve been on a first name basis with my dishwasher service rep.

With linen, when you go through a big volume, it is infinitely easier to use a linen company than to do it yourself on site. You’d have to buy industrial washers, pay rent on space to keep them, know how to service them, pay staff to operate them, etc...

If you’re a large chain, perhaps you could bring those operations in house. If you’re tiny, you could do it yourself. But if you’re seeing over 100 guests a day, there’s no reason not to use service companies for these two examples.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by mtrower on Saturday May 02, 2020 @02:06PM (#23053651)
Hmm, pulling from past experience from the fast-food industry... I never saw our commercial dishwasher[0] break down in year after year of service. It really seemed like a simple, reliable machine to me. The kind of thing I'd be shocked if I couldn't disassemble, understand and repair myself if necessary. (Okay, it was old, and a bit crotchety; there was some component which regularly acted up. However, it was simple enough to "fix" it and move along, so we never really minded). However, alright, lets say that maintenance is a major issue, and so renting is financially attractive. I defer to your experience in this arena.

> With linen, when you go through a big volume, it is infinitely easier to use a linen company than to do it yourself on site. You’d have to buy industrial washers, pay rent on space to keep them, know how to service them, pay staff to operate them, etc...

How much volume could a small restaurant like this need for cleaning towels? More than a McDonald's doing top sales in the state? They get by just fine on a single washing unit[1]. Dump the dirty towel buckets in the washer, add detergent, run. When it's clean, distribute them into buckets of sanitizer so they're ready to use. Takes a few minutes, that's it; usually you'd do it during downtime. It's been too many years to remember now, but that machine was probably run a few times a day (maybe once every 4-6 hours). The process was very streamlined and efficient, and I can't imagine what involving a third party would bring to the table (perhaps if there was legitimately not floor space for a single washing unit in your building?).

I guess if it's common, it's common. I must not understand the business constraints involved, or maybe it's prevalent in certain areas and not in others. The U.S. is a very large and varied place, after all, to say nothing of the rest of the world. I'll have to ask my friend what her family restaurant does for a small-scale perspective.

[0] this type here, more or less: https://4.imimg.com/data4/DW/DT/MY-9292814/dishwasher-500x50...

[1] it was a lot like this (with the coin mechanism removed). Not glamorous, but got the job done just fine: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/271466627178-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by wiredfool on Saturday May 02, 2020 @05:28AM (#23050537)
My first boss said the ice was the most expensive part. But that just may have been his occasionally flakey ice machine.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by runxel on Saturday May 02, 2020 @07:01AM (#23050996)
Possibly because the machine costs a bit, the constant running costs, and maintaining of course as well.

Also maybe because you don't want to use tap water...

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by veggieburglar on Saturday May 02, 2020 @10:21AM (#23051933)
As with my examples above (linen and dishwashing) ice machines are also notoriously difficult/expensive. They most certainly have to be cleaned & serviced regularly. When the Board of Health comes in, the ice machine is one the first places they look as it’s basically a invitation to a mold party without diligent cleaning.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by WalterBright on Saturday May 02, 2020 @01:52AM (#23049627)
> All that profit margin is ending up in landlords' pockets.

The landlord's costs go up, too.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by TheOtherHobbes on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:34AM (#23050096)
Not nearly as much. If at all.

This is what killed retail in the UK. Amazon certainly made a difference, but given a choice, some people actually enjoy mall shopping and eating.

But between huge hikes in business rates (commercial operating taxes) and rent increases, retail simply isn't as profitable as it was in the 90s.

The rent increases are pure greed and predatory extraction. There certainly hasn't been any correspondingly huge explosion of costs for landlords.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by WalterBright on Saturday May 02, 2020 @05:01AM (#23050444)
> Not nearly as much. If at all.

Have you looked over their books?

Landlords have to pay:

1. taxes 2. maintenance 3. insurance 4. mortgage costs (they're usually leveraged) 5. legal and lawyer fees for contracts and disputes 6. costs of unrented space 7. accounting costs 8. costs of just keeping track of all the changing laws 9. depreciation

In Seattle, landlords are considered an unlimited source of funds for social programs by the City Council. For example, if the spouse of a tenant damages the apartment, the landlord has to pay for the damage, not the tenant.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by jlokier on Saturday May 02, 2020 @01:35PM (#23053419)
>> [Cost have not risen] nearly as much. If at all.

Your counterargument:

> Have you looked over their books?

> Landlords have to pay:

> 1. taxes 2. maintenance 3. insurance 4. mortgage costs (they're usually leveraged) 5. legal and lawyer fees for contracts and disputes 6. costs of unrented space 7. accounting costs 8. costs of just keeping track of all the changing laws 9. depreciation

I think your argument is "there are lots of costs", which is true and people don't appreciate that a landlord can have a hard time.

But it doesn't work as an argument about how much costs have risen or fallen.

Most of the costs you listed have either stayed the same or gone down in recent years, so it doesn't appear to support your side of that argument.

Mortgage costs in particular have gone down a lot in recent years. Mortgages are great if you can get them, because they are so cheap now.

6 has gone up but that one is cheating. It's like saying landlord's income is lower than the amount it "should" have gone up, which does not work as an argument that landlords actually have to pay out more. If 6 has gone up due to longer voids, those voids (until recently) are usually due to raising the rent, their own decision, so again do not constitute landlords paying out more.

9 is an interesting mixed bag, as depreciation is only relevant as a true outgoing cost if you're going to sell the property someday, in which case you should only be counting the interest component of the mortgage, which has gone down, as well as the change in property price, which has probably gone up by more than depreciation (until recently).

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by WalterBright on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:05PM (#23054080)
You can't know these costs have not risen by guesswork. You have to actually look into the business and their P&L statements. And I was responding to a line of "if at all".

Dismissing depreciation is a serious mistake. All buildings deteriorate, become obsolete, become inefficient and maladapted to modern conditions, and simply "wear out" over time. It's pretty obvious if you look at a city and notice that there aren't many old buildings. Old buildings get knocked down and replaced all the time.

Just think what happens when the city says you have to install fire sprinkers. Or do earthquake upgrades. Or tear all the cladding off because it's been ruled a fire hazard. Or your HVAC system is obsolete. Or the wiring isn't up to code anymore. These all happen.

The generally accepted rule is buildings have a 30 year life.

But think of it another way. Businesses are subject to supply&demand, too. If there was some high margin low risk business, entrepreneurs would rush into it, thereby erasing the high margins. If this is not happening, it's usually because the government via regulation or law, has prevented competition.

There's nothing about property management that suggests it is immune from these forces.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by jlokier on Saturday May 02, 2020 @04:43PM (#23054755)
> Dismissing depreciation is a serious mistake. ... > The generally accepted rule is buildings have a 30 year life.

I think you are saying "there are substantial costs" again.

It only works as an argument about rising costs if backed up by "and the real costs to the landlord caused by depreciation have actually risen".

Do you have anything to back that up?

I think most people take the view that landlords have generally benefitted, until recently, from steadily rising property prices, and this nearly always greatly outweighs depreciation over 30 years. I.e. the cost of property doubles more often than every 30 years, so you can use the bonanza to buy replacement buildings which offsets the cost of old buildings being taken down.

And that doesn't even consider cost of the land, which does not suffer depreciation even if a building has to be replaced, and is often the majority of the cost of purchase.

> There's nothing about property management that suggests it is immune from these forces.

But there is a very significant obstacle to these forces acting fluidly according to the ebb and flow of commercial forces! I would happily be a landlord (until recently and maybe even then) on the basis of commercial thinking, but the avenue is not open to me because I don't have access to capital. Capital is around, but it will tend to be allocated first to an entity with an existing portfolio.

Also, in the town where I live, even if I had a few million, I would struggle to become a landlord of commercial property larger than a tiny corner shop, because very few units are for sale. When one comes up, which is not often, there's a secret bidding war because pent up demand exists as does the money behind it, and buyers simply cannot find something. This is despite a very large number of empty units, with owners who seem to be happy keeping them empty (I know several companies that have tried renting be turned away on various grounds, sometimes "we are not interested in renting it at all, we have plans for it in 10 years", others "we want personal rent guarantees from all the directors as well as a large deposit".) Heck, even renting is subject to bidding wars and personal interviews to decide which company should be allowed to rent among several candidates (I've been involved in this twice as a business tenant, and several times for residential, so I'm not speculating.)

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by WalterBright on Saturday May 02, 2020 @09:17PM (#23056151)
I've actually been in the commercial property management business for a while. I can assure you that the notion that you can charge whatever rent you like is false. That it's a magical money machine is false. That you don't have large and ever-growing expenses is false. That landlords don't go bust is false. That you make money with an unrented property is false. That there is some secret cabal of landlords is false.

I lost money every year in it, and finally gave it up before it crushed me.

Sure, I stink as a businessman. But that's also my point. It ain't an easy business to make money in.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by tonyedgecombe on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:29AM (#23050073)
Other than borrowing what costs do landlords have to bear? Certainly in the UK they seem to do nothing other than cream off any profitability you have generated at the next rent review.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by triceratops on Saturday May 02, 2020 @03:58PM (#23054453)
> The landlord's costs go up, too.

Not if you've owned the place for a long time and seen rent and value appreciation.

Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by WalterBright on Saturday May 02, 2020 @09:19PM (#23056156)
I suppose that would be true if you weren't paying maintenance, taxes, insurance, legal bills, accounting costs, compliance with regulation costs, repairs, upgrades and assume that none of those go up over time.
Re:Why Restaurants Are So Fucked by triceratops on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:26AM (#23065126)
I'd expect most of those to rise only insofar as the inflation rate. The cost of housing in major North American metros has outpaced inflation in the past 20 years.