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Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by runawaybottle on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:15AM (#23031727)
I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable.

No sympathy here for the college industry.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by michaelt on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:41PM (#23032892)
> I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable.

I believe people who support such things think as follows:

1. $15k a year tuition for 4 years is a great deal if it turns you into a banker or programmer with a $150,000 a year salary and a 40-year career. Indeed, it would be unjust for a garbage man's taxes to be paying for a stockbroker's education.

2. Majoring in poetry might not be such a clearly great decision, but if you're on the left politically, banning poetry is anti-intellectual; and if you're on the right market demand is its own justification.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by CydeWeys on Thursday April 30, 2020 @02:31PM (#23034335)
It's not unjust if that garbageman went to university too, or at least had the same opportunity. Society is better off with better educated citizens. It's why we have free public schooling up through the age of 18; many other countries simply carry that farther.

On the poetry point specifically, I really think writing degrees in general would be more successful if they were granted by trade schools (i.e. a focus on doing the thing, not a focus on academic scholarship about the thing).

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by vonmoltke on Thursday April 30, 2020 @05:50PM (#23036581)
> It's why we have free public schooling up through the age of 18; many other countries simply carry that farther.

To be fair, we also have compulsory schooling for that period as well, and it makes complete sense to use tax revenue to pay for something the same government is making you do.

Note that I don't oppose the use of tax revenue to fund voluntary education, and I personally benefited heavily from it. Its just that using the example of the government paying for something it made mandatory is not much of an argument in itself for having it pay for something that is voluntary.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by CydeWeys on Sunday May 03, 2020 @01:25PM (#23060449)
There are scores of government services that aren't compulsory/universal though. I don't think that's a key differentiator. And there's plenty of things the government makes you do that they don't pay for, either.
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by mrj on Thursday April 30, 2020 @02:38PM (#23034441)
> Indeed, it would be unjust for a garbage man's taxes to be paying for a stockbroker's education.

Education and improving society floats all boats, just as the garbage man is dependent on people generating trash. Stocks fund companies that employ people who generate trash. That was a very narrow, short-sighted analysis of tax policy.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by notfromhere on Thursday April 30, 2020 @03:22PM (#23034978)
Said 150k a year for 40 years generates more in taxes than the up front cost of the education, so said investment makes sense in terms of the public good.

With loans, the govt both makes a return on the interest AND a lifetime increase in net tax revenues.

Value of a college education goes beyond salary, and ideally creates a better informed citizenry.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by gamblor956 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @09:04PM (#23038102)
Garbage men in major cities make more than $100,000/year, not including benefits and pension (if they're part of a unionized workforce). Don't be concerned about the garbage man's taxes paying for the stockbroker's education.
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by Gollapalli on Thursday April 30, 2020 @04:38PM (#23035804)
About as right-wing as you can get. also studied poetry in college. Let's not make this about left-right, thanks.
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by fatnoah on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:03PM (#23032366)
> I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable.

My town currently spends about $12,635 per pupil for public schools. Other towns in the state spend over $20k. Compared to that, $15k tuition seems right in line.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by Glyptodon on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:25PM (#23032680)
I do think there's an argument to made that college should be cheaper (at least excluding housing and other secondary costs) than K-12 given that K-12 has a bunch of mandatory cost centers like special education (which is to say dealing with kids who destroy classrooms, abusive parents, etc.), that class size can be larger in college, that students in college (at least excluding community college) should be above the average in K-12, time in classroom per student/semester is lower, etc.
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by kenjackson on Thursday April 30, 2020 @01:46PM (#23033697)
But the salary of the faculty is more expensive, at least on a per instructor basis. Although maybe you need fewer instructors. And facilities will cost more. You're not likely to have a nano-technology lab at your K-12 school.

I think university could be cheaper than it is today, but probably not much cheaper than K-12.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by intended on Thursday April 30, 2020 @10:46PM (#23038596)
Frankly education is too cheap, which is why people are getting crappy outcomes and then debating on it.

The idealized form of studying is education with mentoring, see Blooms 2 sigma results.

But that is too expensive, who wants to have that number of teachers ! It would cost a fortune!

So instead people try to cut costs, and or keep making it a discussion on price, since this is America, instead of just making colleges public and free.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by Glyptodon on Friday May 01, 2020 @03:22AM (#23039806)
Of course actual faculty wages are balanced against boatloads of adjuncts and grad students working for a pittance.
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by mgoblu3 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:22AM (#23031825)
There’s a bit of a rat race in colleges posturing to get ahead of each other always, and that takes capital investment and the recourse to raise funds ends up being tuition.

These things and reputations take years and tons of willpower and planning, so the risk of falling behind is immense.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by tehjoker on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:34AM (#23031976)
If only we were somehow able to remove the ability to peacock and ensure everyone going through the system got a good education.... then rich people and employers would have much less to work with in terms of picking candidates based on school "reputation".
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:38AM (#23032033)
> If only we were somehow able to remove the ability to peacock and ensure everyone going through the system got a good education

Good professors are rare. Good classmates are rare. Distributed education lets benefits from the former scale, albeit with degradation. There is no known way to scale access to the network of a good college experience.

Education quality varies with respect to both of the above. As a result, there is a scaling limit. As a result, there will be scarcity until the preconditions are solved or the scaling limits released.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by JackFr on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:23PM (#23032630)
There is a school of thought that all the value in higher education comes from signaling.

There is more value in a Princeton diploma than a Princeton education.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by Nasrudith on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:46AM (#23032124)
One solution I heard is changing the loan requirement to be a fixed price sole payment accepted with zero required additional bundling. They can have scholarships but none of this "must stay in our dorms the first year and meal plan, books must be bought from here now suddenly several thousand each" mark up smuggling opportunity bullshit. So there would be a driven for efficiency. You want federal money for education? It is accept $35K/yr per student or get bent.

There would be fine tuning in the numbers and parameters but that would kill price as a signal as a good thing as it forces either public rates or exorbitant private school which thinks they can actually make more without the massive prime consumer pool.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by vidanay on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:18AM (#23031779)
Gotta pay for those basketball and football programs somehow. (Yes, SOME athletics programs are net positive - most are not)
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by czinck on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:40AM (#23032058)
Your source says "athletic departments", not football or basketball programs, which is an important distinction. Football and basketball are the only money-makers (I think hockey or baseball make money at a few schools), and all of the other sports drag down the athletic departments budget.

That's also ignoring that FBS is basically advertising. There's been a steady increase in applications (and subsequently an increase in average GPA and similar numbers) at University of Alabama under Nick Saban, and I know I would have been less likely to go to Virginia Tech if it wasn't for their football program drawing me in when I was in middle/high school.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by JackFr on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:19PM (#23032577)
A couple of other examples:

Jim Calhoun and Geno Auriemma did more to take the University of Connecticut to national prominence than 100 deans. And Auriemma did it by excellence in a non-revenue sport.

While Mark Few at Gonzaga made the NCAA tournament 20 years in a row, this small Jesuit school in Spokane doubled the number of applicants, increased the proportion of students from outside Washington, increased incoming student test scores and dramatically grew the endowment.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by rwmurrayVT on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:33PM (#23032780)
Slightly off-topic, but the recent performance of VT's football program has been depressing. I'd hate to see things sway over to UVlame. :(
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by snapetom on Thursday April 30, 2020 @05:08PM (#23036147)
Boston College received triple their number of average applications the year after Doug Flutie threw his Hail Mary.
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by mgav on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:21AM (#23031821)
I didn't realize that. Do you have a source for this, please?
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by notyourwork on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:34AM (#23031983)
It depends on the school which means maybe some schools should not have sports teams? How crazy is it to think that a school should be focused on education and not go into debt to finance extracurriculars.

Big brand name schools that are regularly competing at top level in sports are usually seeing huge financial surplus due to sports.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by vidanay on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:29AM (#23031923)
This article is a few years old, but I don't think the situation has changed radically.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/athlet...

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by krn1p4n1c on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:29AM (#23031925)
Big sports inside universities are usually structured as a separate corporation for maximum tax effect.
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by gowld on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:37AM (#23032027)
$15k/yr is not expensive. That's about the same as K-12. Most schools are $30-$60k/yr
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by mrlala on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:41AM (#23032067)
>That's about the same as K-12

Are you forgetting the entirely free K-12 option here that most people grow up with?

>$15k/yr is not expensive

Ok....

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by ceejayoz on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:45AM (#23032114)
They're not free, they're differently funded.

My kids' school spends $21k/pupil/year.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by bluedino on Thursday April 30, 2020 @02:09PM (#23034032)
$12k/student is the national average for K-12 spending

https://www.edweek.org/ew/collections/quality-counts-2019-st...

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by runawaybottle on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:27PM (#23032705)
Not sure why you are getting downvoted. Very few of our parents shelled out the 15k a year in public school costs.

We distributed the cost, but 15k a year is absolutely unaffordable for most Americans.

Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by eachro on Thursday April 30, 2020 @02:42PM (#23034483)
15k in just tuition does not seem outrageous. Suppose a year is 30 weeks, and you spend 10 hours a week in classes (not even counting the other benefits that college/a college campus may offer), thats about 50 dollars/hr you're spending for lecture. For some classes/fields it's clearly a much better deal. But 40k+ in tuition? Yea agreed, that's pretty outrageous.
Re:Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ ab... by jimbokun on Thursday April 30, 2020 @04:47PM (#23035910)
$15k is a great price, must private universities are far more than that. And public state universities, if you are paying out of state tuition.