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Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by acd on Thursday April 30, 2020 @10:24AM (#23031097)
If people worked less and spent more time with their friends and loved ones they would be happier. As a consequence anti depressants would go down, happiness and well being go up.

For that we need to change the banking system which puts people in debt. Ie working to pay of debt is voluntary wage debt enslavement. The previous sentence is controversial. Most still want status quo vs radical change.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by CalRobert on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:50PM (#23033016)
Debt is dangerous. Debt, combined with artificial constraints on necessities (like housing) doubly so. We pretty much tell people "it's illegal to build a cheap home" and "btw we can offer you a 30 year mortgage on these nice fancy homes".

It feels a bit like the supply of housing and the supply of debt are both manipulated to make sure people work as hard as possible but without revolting. Living free and clear of debt is extremely hard; the places you can build a home without restriction are generally not near decent jobs, and the places near decent jobs make it more or less illegal to build homes (and those you are allowed to build have to meet labrynthine requirements about outdoor space, parking, density, etc. - certainly the sorts of homes normal people could afford to build with the cash they have aren't allowed in the major metros).

Of course, those who already own homes have a strong incentive to preserve the housing cartel, as it increases the value of their asset (which they can then sell when they retire and move somewhere cheap with no jobs)

So far as I can tell the best path out is remote work and a low cost of living area, but that's open to rather few people and I have a suspicion wages will drop as more people gravitate towards this option and there's more competition.

Not to mention that we explicitly encourage young people to throw away 4 years of their life _and_ take on massive debt before starting. I'm not sure a degree, a pile of debt, and 4 years of opportunity cost are worth more than your wits and a clean slate.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by RedBeetDeadpool on Friday May 01, 2020 @09:05AM (#23041582)
> I'm not sure a degree, a pile of debt, and 4 years of opportunity cost are worth more than your wits and a clean slate.

I have to agree, it isn't.

College these days are a business like any other. Its almost more valuable to toss someone into the deep end to learn to think on their own feet rather than have them come out of a college with 4 years of 'experience' thinking they know anything about how life/business/money works. Going to college to get a certification (i.e. law, medicine) might potentially be worth it but I know people who have left those industries as well.

What I think is more unbelievable is that all degrees are 4 year highly structured degrees, which is simply not the case for every job out there. Looking back it all seems so ludicrous, the whole process of being educated in that system. Even video games today are more realistic than this.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by foofoo4u on Thursday April 30, 2020 @07:44PM (#23037585)
I'm glad you are touching on this. For those who want to learn more about the prohibitive cost of housing and why it continues to exist, I recommend this episode of EconTalk in which the host interviews urban economics and housing policy expert, Jenny Schuetz: https://www.econtalk.org/jenny-schuetz-on-land-regulation-an... . CalRobert touches on several key points as to why. The episode goes into even greater detail about them.
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by ip26 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @01:43PM (#23033659)
It's mostly illegal to build a cheap home because they can be deathtraps. I believe house fires used to be one of the top killers in the country; today, firefighters only spend 1% of their time fighting fires.

In any case, property prices in high CoL locations is mainly the cost of the land. I've visited homes in the midwest nicer than almost anything I ever saw in the Bay Area that cost 200-300k.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by WWLink on Thursday April 30, 2020 @02:06PM (#23033982)
This is exactly it. I rent a house that costs $900,000 and it’s a 60 year old death trap. Just like most of the other houses in the neighborhood. It was built when LA County was more of a “build baby build!” Place lol.

When you buy a house here it’s more like you’re buying a $900,000 piece of land and getting a free house in the deal. Those houses are practically worthless and a lot of new buyers tear them down and build a new one.

I’d guess that doing that costs a few hundred thousand. But most of the time I see that, the new houses are way better quality. If you wanted to bare minimum meet code, it’d probably still be cheaper to build a new house than to refit the old one.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by CalRobert on Thursday April 30, 2020 @02:53PM (#23034629)
Cheap can be achieved by taking a lot with a single family home and putting 8 apartments on it too. Though habitat for humanity houses are sub-100k and hardly death traps.

And land you can build on is expensive because it's scarce, because people vote to make building anything illegal (except places that are already in decline and need residents)

My house is a death trap, for that matter, but it's thatched..

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by PopeDotNinja on Thursday April 30, 2020 @03:27PM (#23035055)
Debt pretty much hijacked my life. I'm gonna end up OK, but I'll live modestly at best as an old bastard.
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by CalRobert on Thursday April 30, 2020 @04:32PM (#23035755)
Having graduated in 2008 and watching friends and acquaintances be destroyed by their mortgages was an apt lesson. Mortgages turn people in to extremely highly leveraged housing market speculators even if they just need a roof over their head.
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by indigochill on Thursday April 30, 2020 @10:32AM (#23031192)
>For that we need to change the banking system which puts people in debt.

The banking system doesn't put people into debt by itself. People voluntarily take on debt for reasons such as to attain a college degree because they are told the long-term benefit is worth it.

So rather than go after the banking system, I think it would be more fruitful to go after the reasons people voluntarily take on debt. What are those, and how can we make them more affordable with something other than debt?

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by hugey010 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @10:47AM (#23031370)
I'd argue that many people aren't being paid enough to participate in the society they were born into. Therefore taking on debt for daily expenses is involuntary.
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by dv_dt on Thursday April 30, 2020 @10:53AM (#23031455)
A growing underclass isn't paid enough to get basics of life like healthcare or being consistently fed - it's beyond not being able to participate, for many to even exist is backsliding.
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by jbay808 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @10:51AM (#23031431)
Hmm, sort of. Let's look at mortgages.

If I want to buy a house without a mortgage (or with a limited, affordable mortgage), I still need to be able to outbid other buyers who might have no qualms about taking on an unaffordable debt. So even if I'm just making an individual decision for myself not to go into debt, I'm severely influenced by the behaviour of other members in society, and how much banks are willing to lend to them.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by indigochill on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:17AM (#23031753)
>I still need to be able to outbid other buyers who might have no qualms about taking on an unaffordable debt

It's still not the bank's fault that people will voluntarily enter unsustainable agreements because they think they need to live in overpriced areas. The banks in this scenario are merely an accessory to financial suicide.

So I think my point still stands: how do we break up this obsession with living in overpriced areas? Improved remote work opportunities? Better cultural opportunities outside major metropolitan areas?

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by derg on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:51AM (#23032184)
Build more housing in the major metropolitan areas to meet demand is a fantastic start to it all. Look at how much is built in the big desirable cities. It's not enough, which is driving up prices to absurd levels (looking at you specifically San Francisco in particular). Decommodify housing where possible and take away it's ability to devolve into strictly a monetary investment vehicle.

>Better cultural opportunities outside major metropolitan areas?

There is so much historical inertia behind the cultural opportunities in many places that this one will be hard to do and take an inordinate amount of time I think.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by karatestomp on Thursday April 30, 2020 @01:33PM (#23033529)
> It's still not the bank's fault that people will voluntarily enter unsustainable agreements because they think they need to live in overpriced areas.

Difficulty: houses are more expensive near good schools, because demand is higher, so you can't get away with cheaper housing without harming your children's future prospects.

And no, it's not mostly a funding thing, so just distributing funds more evenly won't fix it. It has a lot more to do with selection bias, of which housing prices are a major part.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Thursday April 30, 2020 @03:16PM (#23034909)
Housing prices haven't been based on the underlying asset for decades.

An expensive home is a place to live and sleep, but it's also: 1) a ticket of admission into a good school district 2) a ticket of admission to a local economy with well-paying jobs 3) a retirement investing account

I do think changing the way schools are funded will help the first point, and the rise of remote-work will help with the second point, but as to the third point - who knows. There are too many government incentives to buying a home that I don't think it'll change any time soon.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by lotsofpulp on Friday May 01, 2020 @05:54AM (#23040557)
>So I think my point still stands: how do we break up this obsession with living in overpriced areas? Improved remote work opportunities? Better cultural opportunities outside major metropolitan areas?

The areas aren’t overpriced, they’re correctly priced given the reduction in value of many types of labor due to automation and outsourcing.

This is a structural change where many Americans now have to compete with people in poorer countries who are up and coming, and at the same time facing redundancies due to technology sufficiently automating their tasks that far fewer people can output more labor.

The obsession is not with living in overpriced areas, the obsession is trying to be in the top quintile/decile and having a network of people in the top quintile/decile because you see the value of labor of the rest of the population going down.

This the solution has to involve either making more people’s labor more valuable, or reducing people’s need for income from their labor.

The first might be accomplished by better educating people so their labor is more valuable and funding research and development, and/or reducing the amount of labor available.

The second can be accomplished with a universal basic income.

Whether this would continue to let a country be economically competitive against other countries in the world, I don’t know, but probably not.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by mikem170 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:41PM (#23032895)
>If I want to buy a house without a mortgage (or with a limited, affordable mortgage), I still need to be able to outbid other buyers who might have no qualms about taking on an unaffordable debt.

I'd blame local zoning boards for that, they won't let new houses be built, so the prices keep going up, screwing folks who don't own homes already.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by jbay808 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @01:32PM (#23033525)
That's definitely an issue, but not the one I'm talking about.

Let's say the rules right now permit 30 year mortgages. Someone suggests allowing 100 year mortgages. I don't presently own property, but I have $300k saved up in the bank, which is enough to get a low-end apartment that would be a step down from where I'm renting now, or enough for a mortgage downpayment on a house. I don't want to live in debt so I have no plans to get a mortgage.

Should I believe that these rules changes won't affect me, because I don't have any plans to get a mortgage?

Or should I be worried that the cheaper availability of credit will quickly put those entry-level apartments out of my price range?

Basically, my point is that changes in details regarding contracts that I'm not a party to can still significantly affect me!

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by mikem170 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @01:53PM (#23033792)
Agreed - increased loan availability affects the supply/demand curve.
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by CalRobert on Thursday April 30, 2020 @04:36PM (#23035784)
Thank you! It's often overlooked that housing basically soaks up as much debt as we throw at it.

In Sweden, you'd be competing against people getting 110 year mortgages.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by xur17 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @09:34PM (#23038258)
Isn't the extreme of this interest only mortgages?
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by corpMaverick on Thursday April 30, 2020 @03:58PM (#23035382)
We are competing among ourselves. It becomes a rat race.
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by z2 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @10:58AM (#23031529)
Debt to me is just something that buys time by making things immediately available. I think it's healthy only if it supports real growth. For a person, if they need money now to buy an education, home, or other thing that will be put to productive use, debt is valuable they don't need to save up for years at a less productive state first. Same for companies -- 'responsible' debt can unlock growth by meeting obvious and pressing demand today. The future is unclear, so this is of course riddled with traps and competitive pressures, but at least there is a chance that money today rather than tomorrow is a good thing, if your returns can beat the interest rate you pay.

The more predatory side of taking on excessive debt, because one's back is against the wall or one wants to make an impulse purchase, gives you very little additional time (e.g. weeks or months instead of years). This kind of debt is dangerous.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by CalRobert on Thursday April 30, 2020 @04:38PM (#23035803)
True, and indeed swapping a $2k a month rent payment for a $1k a month mortgage payment (that ends after 15 or 30 years) can make sense. But people have different tolerances for risk and to me securing multiple years of debt with the roof over my head scares the shit out of me.

I bought my house about 60% cash, 40% an unsecured personal loan I could default on without losing my house. This is only because my house was insanely cheap, though.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by wdn on Thursday April 30, 2020 @10:53AM (#23031459)
What we need is rewrite the law to reward saving instead of penalize savings. In the US, there is no incentive to save, because it got penalize first by inflation, then you happen to have a capital gain, dividend or interest on your savings, you get tax again. However, if you get into debt like a mortgage, which lock you in for 30 or more years, you get to deduct your mortgage interest. Property tax is deductible as well.
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Thursday April 30, 2020 @03:27PM (#23035046)
Tax policy isn't sexy but it's really at the heart of most of our problems.

Personally, I'd love to see a political push to ease back income taxes and capital gains taxes (why are we disincentivizing working and saving?), and implement either a VAT or a progressive consumption tax instead, which discourages spending beyond one's means.

We could also take away corporate income taxes, and replace them with hefty Pigovian carbon taxes (to offset negative externalities), and land value taxes (as they're non-distortionary).

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by chameleon_world on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:14AM (#23031710)
Are there other countries that have some kind of system like this in place?
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by wdn on Thursday April 30, 2020 @11:24AM (#23031872)
I think Canada has the same systems.

Singapore don't penalize saving and you see how competitive they are. More importantly, they have a lot of savings.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by pbourke on Thursday April 30, 2020 @07:00PM (#23037254)
Canada has the Tax Free Savings Account, which can be used like a Roth IRA (long-term investing without taxes due at withdrawal) or like a regular savings account. It's an after tax account, but earnings are, as the name says, tax free regardless of type.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax-free_savings_account

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:17PM (#23032544)
I just want a salary high enough to retire at some point and not have to worry about surprise medical costs in the short term. Oh, also enough for a family, oh also enough for good schooling for my children, oh also enough to live in a good area.

At the end of the day this all adds up to millions of dollars for what my parents and grandparents could easily afford on mediocre pay by today's standards.

It means I spend all day every day thinking about career moves. If I'm sittin here on Slacker News I'm not gaining knowledge or skills to move ahead. I can easily see this causing one to feel isolated and trapped which isn't good for mental health.

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by saiya-jin on Thursday April 30, 2020 @02:25PM (#23034246)
> I just want a salary high enough to retire at some point and not have to worry about surprise medical costs in the short term. Oh, also enough for a family, oh also enough for good schooling for my children, oh also enough to live in a good area.

You've unfortunately picked up a wrong country to continue living (and possibly retire). Many european countries offer all of this, US currently none. Unless you jump into career rat race, but even then you are 1 severe illness/accident away from financial ruin.

Apart form the last point about good area. Depends on what is good for you. If its good for everybody, its unreasonable to expect that it can be available to many. That's unrealistic... anywhere

Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by CalRobert on Thursday April 30, 2020 @04:40PM (#23035830)
The jackpot is being European, working in the bay for a while earning a huge salary with 8 roommates and socking away savings worth a lifetime's income or more in, say, Greece, then heading back to Europe to have a family.
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by _7kf0 on Thursday April 30, 2020 @10:49AM (#23031397)
not everyone has or wants friends and loved ones. time spent alone would increase happiness too.
Re:Are we too busy to enjoy life? by ketamine__ on Thursday April 30, 2020 @12:23PM (#23032634)
> If people worked less and spent more time with their friends and loved ones they would be happier.

Daniel Kahneman argues that people optimize for satisfaction over happiness. If we had UBI many parents would choose to spend extra time with their children instead of friends. That may not make them happier.

https://qz.com/1503207/a-nobel-prize-winning-psychologist-de...