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Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by briefcomment on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:04PM (#22982439)
Nope, the article says

"Accordingly, says Milan Mayor Beppe Sala, the city plans to maintain its metro system’s capacity at less than two-thirds of its pre-pandemic activity. Instead of the 1.4 million average trips it saw daily before the pandemic, it will accommodate a maximum daily ridership of 400,000."

Instead, they're focusing on supporting walking and cycling.

"As a result, Milan is going big on cycling and walking. Over the summer, the city core will be partly remodeled to give over 22 miles (35 kilometers) of road space previously used by cars to bikes and pedestrians. Those cars that are allowed into the center must adhere to a new reduced 30 kilometers per hour speed limit. The aim is to make traffic more fluid and give pedestrians more space to spread out safely."

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by lbeltrame on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:54PM (#22982753)
> the city plans to maintain its metro system’s capacity at less than two-thirds of its pre-pandemic activity.

As a resident of Milan, I find this rather displeasing. I don't own a car (and have no plans to own one), and I exclusively depend on the metro + trains to get to work, which is too far away for serious walking or even cycling. FTR: it's actually far easier to go there (at least from where I live) with public transport than walking , cycling, and even with a car.

Even at full capacity trains are already packed, and I'm afraid that this will make matters worse than before (example: at some point last month metro lines cut rides to < 50%, and were hastily pushed above that again because trains were too crowded even for the decreased ridership, people who could not work from home and had to go to work instead).

Also, what happens if it rains?

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by simongray on Sunday April 26, 2020 @02:45AM (#22985092)
> Also, what happens if it rains?

I'm from Copenhagen. Almost two thirds of us use our bikes to get around. The weather is incredibly shifty on this island and during autumn and winter it rains pretty much every day. Not always all day, but there's a high chance it will rain during your daily commute.

So what do all the people here do? To cope with the weather we have developed advanced technology that negates the effects of rain. It's called: the raincoat.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by paganel on Sunday April 26, 2020 @10:36AM (#22987436)
Not all of Europe is Copengahen when it comes to climate, quite the contrary (even though that is very hard to understand even for some of the people I talk to here in Bucharest). Not sure about how rain manifests itself in Milan but summer rains here in Bucharest can be quite the thing, one minute you're minding your own business and two minutes later you can soaking wet if you had dared stay in said summer rain for too long. Something like this [1] or this [2]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYtYcV-S_0M

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e4dxzpZCZ0

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by simongray on Sunday April 26, 2020 @11:42AM (#22987920)
There's plenty of heavy showers during summer in Denmark too.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by Broken_Hippo on Sunday April 26, 2020 @04:57AM (#22985684)
Also, what happens if it rains?

That is a cultural dislike. Seriously.

I was born in the states - Indiana. NO one walked when it rained unless you were poor. When you did walk, you probably had an umbrella. Being female meant that sometimes, people would offer me rides randomly.

I moved to Trondheim, Norway. There is a saying here - "There is no bad weather, only bad clothes". Which, you know, is only half correct. I do not drive here. I walk. I take public transport. I do this regardless of whether in general. I do tend to avoid walking if it is really heavy rain, but not so much in normal rain. People bike with snow and ice on the ground (I'm not that brave). And yes, clothes make a big difference (though they do not turn weather 'good). You simply get used to it and get over it.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by lbeltrame on Sunday April 26, 2020 @05:33AM (#22985843)
Some back of envelope estimates: 75 minutes of walking to get to the workplace. Approximately 50 minutes if I go via bicycle (directions are not straightforward for many reasons). This is regardless of weather and/or traffic if on the road. 30-40 minutes if I go via metro + train (the actual trips take 10ish minutes each).

Unless forced to do differently, the most efficient choice is evident. I'm also lucky enough to live inside the city. Commuters that can't work from home have it even rougher, since they live outside and they take up to an hour or more with public transport.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by Broken_Hippo on Sunday April 26, 2020 @06:59AM (#22986230)
Sure, that's out of reasonable walking distance: Depending on your day, the occasional bicycle isn't out of question. Even in rain. (To be fair, I'll walk daily anywhere that is 30-45minutes most days).

But honestly, the bicycle is cultural as it would be better to prioritize bikes so it is faster. Same for public transportation. Car-first infrastructure and lack of pedestrian/bicycle/mass transit are political decisions.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by lbeltrame on Sunday April 26, 2020 @08:02AM (#22986513)
In fact, people are actually using bike sharing a lot already here since they were first put into practice several years ago (there are stations where you can hop on close to many spots with high traffic).
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by Broken_Hippo on Sunday April 26, 2020 @08:24AM (#22986639)
They've been expanding the bike share things here. I nearly used them last year, but they are even more so now. I suspect I'll bike this summer.

They've had some for years, mind you - but they were really more in the tourist spots. Now they are putting them in next to a fair amount of regular bus stops.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by jariel on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:17PM (#22982524)
This is misleading - the city controls supply, not demand.

By cutting service in specific routes, they're probably just going to increase density on them.

The issue is less about 'net capacity / ridership' as much as literally density on each ride.

Paradoxically, reducing density comes with increasing capacity.

Cities/central planners do this kind of thing all the time, they change some thing over here and think that people's behaviour will change. Sometimes it does - but people still need to get to work, pick up their kids, etc. and if the choice is not public transport, it's often 'car'.

Again, creating 'more supply' of biking routes may move the needle but it doesn't change the fact you live 12km from the office and biking is not practical for many people in those circumstances.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by thomaslkjeldsen on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:37PM (#22982638)
> This is misleading - the city controls supply, not demand.

Well. Relevant quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

"Trying to cure traffic congestion by adding more capacity is like trying to cure obesity by loosening your belt."

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by kortilla on Saturday April 25, 2020 @08:13PM (#22982896)
Shitty quote. Induced demand is a lazy intellectual concept that fails to realize that congestion follows a standard supply and demand curve and the price is just being hidden because the monetary cost is usually free for everyone so it’s all based on time cost.

So you add supply, you capture more of the demand that has been there at a lower cost. You didn’t induce shit. You will eventually add enough supply that everyone will be satisfied (see every road not suffering from congestion issues).

”Trying to cure a toilet paper shortage by producing more toilet paper is like trying to cure obesity by loosening your belt.”

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by chriswphoto on Saturday April 25, 2020 @08:58PM (#22983219)
Because we don’t charge for roads, users “pay” in congestion delays, so as we widen roads more drivers can use the road at the same “price” measured in minutes of delay. In some cases You might say that increased capacity induced hesitant drivers to drive.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by bluGill on Saturday April 25, 2020 @09:59PM (#22983608)
That is the point. There are people who want to go somewhere but congestion is making them not go. Eventually you get a head of it and things are free flowing while everyone gets where they want to go. In middle of nowhere rural area everything is this way. In big dense cities you would need 30+ levels of bridges (at much great expense per user than rural gravel roads).

I will fully agree that cities should build something other than bridges and parking garages. However induced demand is not a factor because cities that are not ahead of so called induced demand are leaving behind (part of) the great advantage of a cities over rural areas: the vast amount of different places you can get to in a short time.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by thomaslkjeldsen on Saturday April 25, 2020 @10:53PM (#22983940)
One way of looking at it is to consider the area of road required per citizen during transportation. If a car consumes 10 square meters of road and a bike only consumes 2 square meters of road, converting a car lane into two bike lanes should immediately reduce traffic congestion. If and only if, of course, enough people are able and willing to do so.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by bluGill on Monday April 27, 2020 @08:13AM (#22995059)
Cars can go a lot faster than a bicycle (assuming safety is a concern, there is a reason I don't have a motorcycle - which isn't to say cars are safe) thus per unit time you can get more distance in a car. Which is back to my point: you are throwing away the point of the city with that argument. I realize parking takes more space, but it will be ages before the city rebuilds to the new reality and until then it isn't functioning like it should.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by kortilla on Sunday April 26, 2020 @05:33AM (#22985847)
Yes, decreasing the cost to capture more of the demand curve doesn’t need a special term. That’s why “induced demand” is so dumb. The demand was always there, the busy road was just too high a cost.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by matchbok on Saturday April 25, 2020 @11:02PM (#22983983)
It still doesn't work, because the places where the roads ultimately end up, cities, cannot add more roads. It has to stop somewhere.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by kortilla on Sunday April 26, 2020 @05:40AM (#22985878)
But they can add more roads via tunnels, bridges, etc. People just don’t want to pay the cost but instead of just saying that they handwave with stupid crap like “induced demand” to pretend it’s an intractable problem.

Also, tons of people give no fucks about going to the city. It’s not some grand final destination. Some of the worst congestion points in the Bay Area aren’t anywhere near dense city.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by ProZsolt on Sunday April 26, 2020 @09:16AM (#22986914)
12km is 30-35 mins on a bike. If you're elderly or less fit you can buy an electrical bike.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by JustFinishedBSG on Sunday April 26, 2020 @05:11AM (#22985737)
12 Km is nothing by bike
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by Symbiote on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:23PM (#22982568)
There is nothing in the article to suggest they're reducing service. There's also nothing in your comment to suggest you read the article, so I don't think you're aware of what's planned.

> the floors of metro cars and buses will be marked out with circles showing passengers the right level of distance to maintain. If the system looks like it will exceed the passenger numbers that makes this level of distancing possible, station entrances will be temporarily closed until congestion eases.

+ school times changed, shops open later, etc.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by jariel on Saturday April 25, 2020 @08:43PM (#22983114)
"There is nothing in the article to suggest they're reducing service"

"Accordingly, says Milan Mayor Beppe Sala, the city plans to maintain its metro system’s capacity at less than two-thirds of its pre-pandemic activity. Instead of the 1.4 million average trips it saw daily before the pandemic, it will accommodate a maximum daily ridership of 400,000.""

Is literally from the article and the comment I was responding to.

Please read the article before complaining to others that they may not have read the article.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by Symbiote on Sunday April 26, 2020 @06:18AM (#22986052)
> By cutting service in specific routes

You invented that bit.

It is perhaps clearer in the original announcement from the head of the Milanese transport authority:

"Our metro carried around 1,400,000 people every day. To maintain a distance of one meter, while keeping the maximum service, as in the height of the winter season, this number will have to drop to 25-30%."

https://www.radiolombardia.it/2020/04/21/granelli-a-milano-p...

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:00PM (#22982403)
From the article it's clear that the intention is to replace car use with biking and walking, not use of public transport.

e.g. (from the article):

As a result, Milan is going big on cycling and walking. Over the summer, the city core will be partly remodeled to give over 22 miles (35 kilometers) of road space previously used by cars to bikes and pedestrians. Those cars that are allowed into the center must adhere to a new reduced 30 kilometers per hour speed limit. The aim is to make traffic more fluid and give pedestrians more space to spread out safely.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by Noos on Saturday April 25, 2020 @10:38PM (#22983861)
These are two different use cases though. If you could bike or walk you'd generally do it; usually the car is for things where it's too much time to try.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by Heliosmaster on Sunday April 26, 2020 @03:49AM (#22985380)
Not really. It depends a lot on the habit. Plenty of people in Italy take the car to drive less than a km to go a shop, and then come back, especially in mid-to-small cities
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by makomk on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:12PM (#22982493)
So basically, the idea is to substantially shrink people's worlds in real, day to day terms, reducing the distance it's practical to travel to work, socialize and shop? Why even live in a big city anymore at that point, if you're only going to be able to interact with a small corner of it?
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by Mirioron on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:17PM (#22982529)
That's how I understood it as well. This idea seems to be gaining popularity in a lot of places. I wonder how much this is going to cost their local economy in the long-term.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by ourlordcaffeine on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:54PM (#22982750)
Based on existing experience in Europe, it will significantly bolster local economies, as walkers and bikers often go into shops, often unplanned as they just saw an interesting shop during their journey. Net result was a big increase in purchases from brick and mortar stores.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by icebraining on Sunday April 26, 2020 @05:28AM (#22985824)
What's the existing experience in Europe that cut down both on cars and on public transport?
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by eranimo on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:02PM (#22982417)
Public transit is a lot better in Europe, and besides, this is a long term plan.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by patrickaljord on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:16PM (#22982519)
Better in what way? I've in Paris for decades, people are jammed together all the time. Horrible conditions during a pandemic. Let's face it, cars are better in this case. Biking in Paris where it rains all the time and gets really cold, good luck with that (I'm a biker myself and use it all the time, just not feeling good about this knowing Parisians).
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by bobthepanda on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:40PM (#22982652)
> Better in what way?

It at least exists in a form that is usable. In the US, most people do not even live within a bus line that comes < 15 min frequency during the rush hour, let alone all day, or next to a rail line or something more substantial.

If the local bus only comes four times a day I'm much less likely to use it, since missing one means I am screwed for quite a while or then have to cough up money I wasn't planning on spending on a taxi.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by hk__2 on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:50PM (#22982727)
> Biking in Paris where it rains all the time and gets really cold, good luck with that (I'm a biker myself and use it all the time, just not feeling good about this knowing Parisians).

Is it really worse than other big cities? Does it have a proven impact on bike usage? As some anecdata, it rains twice more in New York than in Paris 1,200mm vs. 600mm/year) and on more days (121 vs. 111/yr). Amsterdam, the well known bikes-everywhere city is colder and has more rain (900mm) than Paris. Berlin is well know for both frequent rains and a large bike usage.

Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by petre on Sunday April 26, 2020 @01:23AM (#22984725)
Parisians using scooters (gas powered) seem not to be bothered by rain or cold that much. Otherwise scooter usage wouldn't be so high. Not as high as Naples though.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by patrickaljord on Saturday April 25, 2020 @07:54PM (#22982749)
Amsterdam is flat, not the case for Paris.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by stereo on Saturday April 25, 2020 @08:12PM (#22982889)
Paris is a lot flatter than Aarhus, which has much higher bicycle usage. And if you need to go to Montmartre, any Decathlon in Paris sells perfectly decent e-bikes for a few hundred Euros. It's infrastructure, not culture or hills or weather.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by petre on Sunday April 26, 2020 @01:30AM (#22984766)
Yup, it is infrastructure. All those quaint cubic rock paved hilly streets in Montmartre with obstacles tobprevwnt cars parking and and cars parked on the side are a cycling hazard, especially when it rains.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by CydeWeys on Saturday April 25, 2020 @08:49PM (#22983158)
Paris isn't that hilly, and anyway ebikes are great at solving this problem.
Re:Europe’s cities are making less room for cars after coron... by speedgoose on Sunday April 26, 2020 @03:15AM (#22985228)
Come on, Paris is almost flat and everyone with no medical condition should be able to bike up the small hill of Montmartre.