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Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by npunt on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @05:43PM (#22950508)
Magic Leap made one of the classic mistakes that other before-their-time products make: they tried to create a general purpose product because they didn't have a killer app that could focus their efforts.

When you're building a product without a focused use case, you are pulled in a ton of different directions. In AR, this means focusing on fidelity, embodied in high resolution, wide field of view visuals, powerful processing, and compelling input methods.

The real question in AR is what use cases can you hit without great fidelity? What sort of value can you unlock with a low-res postage stamp overlay and slow processor instead of full FOV? That's where the go-to market effort needs to be placed.

A similar example of this overreach was in multifunction pen devices of the 90s (General Magic, Newton, EO Personal communicator). A great counter example is Apple Watch, which didn't chase the 'smartphone on your wrist' everything device, and instead picked a few key use cases, established a beachhead, and slowly added capabilities as the technology allowed.

When a category-defining product has yet to emerge on the market, there are going to be a lot of people making predictable mistakes like this - mistiming ideas, scoping the wrong set of features, getting too excited about the wrong technologies, not leveraging their assets.

If you're a product person interested in understanding more about these factors, I wrote an essay on the subject recently: https://nickpunt.com/blog/category-defining-products/

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by egd on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:31PM (#22951964)
The basic problem is that without high fidelity & a wide FOV, there's nothing that sets MagicLeap apart from any of the other companies that have been able to create AR headsets for the last ~decade.

AR right now is stuck because the display technologies aren't up to the task. The "Waveguide" approach has always fallen short - nobody's ever been able to make the viewing angle wide enough to be worthwhile, and the "passthrough" approach isn't really viable for walking down the street.

This is why I'm skeptical about Apple's AR moves - unless they've either got a totally new display technology or they've managed to do something incredibly clever with the waveguide approach, I just don't see consumer goggles working.

The only people I've seen doing something unique in this space is Tilt Five: https://www.tiltfive.com/ - they've basically done what you're suggesting: constrain the use case until you can actually build something for it.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by istorical on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:46AM (#22953165)
One could argue that Google Glass could have worked if the battery life was better, universal google maps / navigation had been better developed and more omnipresent, and pricepoint had been way lower.

Perhaps enough time has passed for those sorts of problems to be resolved and Apple will do something similar to Apple Watch but for Glasses.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by janekm on Thursday April 23, 2020 @03:45AM (#22953686)
I find that very unlikely. Pedestrian navigation isn't exactly a major use case for most people and is pretty well covered by phones and smartwatches already. Could have been useful for food delivery drivers (cyclists), but then we're right back into specialist markets.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by stripline on Thursday April 23, 2020 @09:57AM (#22956016)
I disagree. You could make the same argument that texting and phone calls are handled by smartphones, so why need the apple watch? I personally hate looking down at my phone to navigate while walking around in an unfamiliar city.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by janekm on Thursday April 23, 2020 @10:51AM (#22956650)
If there was a big demand for pedestrian navigation (walking around an unfamiliar city is not a frequent activity for most people) we would already have better solutions, such as good voice navigation, which would arguably be better than can be done on the low-res Google glass display. Receiving messages and notifications is a very frequent occurrence for most people these days. Personally I suspect I'd find the watch notification preferable to one that appears in my peripheral vision (disrupting attention) for that use case.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by pixelbash on Thursday April 23, 2020 @03:54PM (#22960410)
Personally I feel weird talking at my phone in a public place, but to each their own
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by janekm on Friday April 24, 2020 @04:58AM (#22966023)
Good pedestrian navigation (which needs pedestrian road/pathway networks that haven't been built to the same extent as they have for roads, though in some countries like Japan they are much better) doesn't need constant interaction. You'd just be wearing your regular headset and you'd occasionally hear "at the next intersection, take the traffic light on your left, cross the road and continue down xxx street"
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by ben_w on Thursday April 23, 2020 @03:48AM (#22953703)
From the criticisms I saw at the time, it also needed the absence of a camera, and the presence of a fashion expert in the hardware design team.

I don’t understand fashion at all, so I wouldn’t have predicted it in advance, but it was unfashionable.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by xorcist on Thursday April 23, 2020 @06:15AM (#22954428)
That illustrates the parent poster's point pretty well. If you set out to build a killer heads-up display for navigation, it wouldn't look like Glass did. Better to focus on the "killer app" to establish the beachhead. Generality will follow.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by neuronic on Thursday April 23, 2020 @03:21AM (#22953593)
But that is precisely the point the parent is trying to make, no? The tech was in no way ready and able to do these things, so Google Glass had to appeal in a broader, non-focused way which is one of the issues that broke its neck.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by satvikpendem on Thursday April 23, 2020 @07:52AM (#22954972)
Google Glass is still used for enterprise.

https://www.google.com/glass/start/

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by kmonsen on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:35PM (#22951678)
I think they just never had a great product. Look at VR, even though the products are becoming really good, it is not hitting mainstream and this is even more niche.

The startup cost is enormous, it is really hard to create good content and there is close to zero revenue since there are few users. And the users that does exist is the techie crowd that doesn't like to pay for anything.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by npunt on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:27PM (#22951943)
The question I'm asking is why they don't have a great product. Why is it bulky, weird looking, expensive, etc? Why does their marketing fail to explain the product's value?

There are tons of ways to implement AR. They chose 'general AR', the kind of thing you see on Westworld or Black Mirror. That was a bad choice, because the tech isn't there and won't be for a long time, and it only follows that the implementation was going to be bad.

There are alternative ways to find a good v1 for AR. Take a look at this tweet storm for more of my thoughts on what that could be: https://twitter.com/nickpunt/status/1253087195159654400

As far as VR goes, it's further along. Quest is a quality stand-alone product, but VR is young and content is still lacking. Its also completely sold out, even before coronavirus. They aren't producing them in Sony/MS console numbers but its not a failure, just a stepping stone to success. Unlike the Rift or Vive, with cords hanging out of them and an appeal only to hardcore gamers, Quest is definitely on the path to mainstream, or mainstream-adjacent success.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by wpietri on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:01AM (#22952672)
It was a bad choice if they wanted a successful consumer product. But I think the simplest explanation here is that the company's real product was fancy demos for investors. $2.6 billion in revenue! In operation since 2011! Thousands of jobs created!

I'd call it great choice. They wouldn't have been able to make nearly as much money on a purposeful, targeted device, because nobody's put in that much money for a narrow market. Worse, it would have been much easier for investors to figure that the more modest product would fail. Much better to sell moonbeams, to sell the glorious possibility of AR just like they saw on Westworld and Black Mirror.

I mean sure, the wheels had to come off eventually. After a while, you run out of fools. But most startups fail eventually, and you have to admit that 9 years is a great run for something that never worked, and probably never could have worked.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by disqard on Thursday April 23, 2020 @03:19PM (#22959979)
While sounding slightly cynical, I have come to believe that your comment is a good description of the current state of "the latest buzzword" startups.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by kangaroozach on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:34AM (#22953916)
I’m printing and framing this. SPOT ON!
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by abacadaba on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:47PM (#22952062)
I've only used the quest for a short demo, but I have a hard time seeing what full AR gets you that a quest in camera augmented setup mode can't.

What's the point of crappy half dim see-through display when you can just pipe the camera output to a normal VR screen?

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by npunt on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:25AM (#22953863)
Wearable anywhere. AR's unique value is not big bulky things you play with at home, they're to be a nearly invisible accessory you wear everywhere. You get a few grams to hang off people's faces in the form of glasses, not a half kilogram. Otherwise, you're right - VR meets the need well enough.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by TwoBit on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @11:32PM (#22952578)
Currently the cameras are low fidelity, but perhaps that will improve enough in the future.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by tsbinz on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:22AM (#22953334)
Camera quality is the easy problem. The hard problems are getting camera latency down and dealing with depth of field and all the other things you lose when you replace the incoming light field with camera images.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by Robotbeat on Thursday April 23, 2020 @09:50AM (#22955945)
I’m pretty impressed with the depth of field the Quest is able to develop in Passthrough+ mode just using the 4 wide field tracking cameras and a smartphone processor from 3 years ago. A residual, after-thought capability like that on a $400 device is pretty impressive, IMHO.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by idavidrein on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:40AM (#22953410)
given the rate of improvement in camera tech, I'd say we are very far away from passthrough to be usable
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by wastedhours on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:01AM (#22953758)
> we are very far away

For different definitions of "very far away". We're only talking about 15 years since we started getting proper video recording in phones, and only about 4 since the big players started focusing on software enhancements.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by idavidrein on Friday April 24, 2020 @01:39AM (#22965000)
that's a fair point, but vision is such a high-dimensional and dynamic input that my feeling is the last 20% of super-fast autofocus, auto color balancing, high dynamic range, removing motion-blur, etc. will be very difficult to improve upon. it seems that just increasing brightness/fov by making better waveguides or MEMS will be much easier. that being said, magic leap's lack of success doesn't bode well.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by lmeyerov on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:58PM (#22952141)
Platform != product

If there was even 1 amazing game, they'd be ok. Think halo->xbox, sonic->sega, mario->nintendo+gameboy, ... .

But apparently not. Nothing people want to buy.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by criddell on Thursday April 23, 2020 @09:03AM (#22955450)
> I think they just never had a great product.

What were they showing investors and writers under NDA that caused billions of dollars and thousands of words of praise to flow?

I wonder if the NDAs still in effect? I'd love for Kevin Kelly to talk more openly about what he saw and heard.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by chaostheory on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:48PM (#22952074)
VR is becoming mainstream with Covid19 lockdowns. Oculus Quest keeps going out of stock and there's a long waiting list for Valve's Index.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by _-___________-_ on Thursday April 23, 2020 @06:42AM (#22954542)
I doubt that indicates that it's becoming mainstream so much as that they had trouble scaling production up quickly enough for all the techies that all decided at once to play with VR once they were stuck inside.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by Robotbeat on Thursday April 23, 2020 @09:45AM (#22955887)
VR headsets have been sold out for months, now. I got an Oculus Quest, but only got one because I refreshed the product page (on multiple vendors) constantly for days.

I think VR is starting the mainstream (at least for gaming), and Coronavirus is encouraging this (as it’s making virtually all gaming platforms a boost).

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by Noos on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:42PM (#22957882)
no, not really. You can't get over the motion sickness thing for many people. And VR games will always need to mitigate that, which means they are going to be limited in significant ways compared to normal games.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by Robotbeat on Friday April 24, 2020 @04:36PM (#22972665)
This is a misconception borne of ignorance of the current state of VR tech.

Your statement was true for early VR seated games that used smooth locomotion or flight-sim-like games.

Roomscale VR games don't have motion sickness because of different locomotion methods (teleport, for instance... or they take place entirely within the room volume you have available). In fact, less motion sickness than you'd experience with a large monitor and something like a dynamic flight-based combat game. Unlike a monitor, your in-game view motion is mapped perfectly to physical head motion.

I've tried out about a dozen games, and the only time I had motion sickness at all was when I changed locomotion method from teleport to smooth in Rec Room.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by flukus on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:12PM (#22952214)
> I think they just never had a great product

Bingo. If the product works as advertised I could justify the cost just in replacing existing screens, I could have a dozen virtual terminals floating around, I could replace my large TV, etc. All with zero new content required.

The problem is it doesn't seem to work as advertised.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by quickthrower2 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @05:41AM (#22954264)
I’ve not looked into this but is this bad for your eyes to be focusing so close for long periods?
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by esyir on Thursday April 23, 2020 @10:42PM (#22964101)
A few things:

- VR headsets generally are similar to focusing on something further away due to the setup of the lenses. It's not literally focusing on a screen 1cm from your face.

- One direction for current VR work is dynamic focus via lens arrays.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by huffmsa on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:50PM (#22951759)
Techies will pay for hardware though. But it's got to be good hardware.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by ChuckNorris89 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @11:53PM (#22952648)
Oculus Quest and its 3 year old mobile chipset would like to disagree.

People pay for a good experience.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by gfxgirl on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:55AM (#22952936)
The Quest is underpowered to run any of the truly compelling VR experiences. You can't play Half Life Alex on a Quest, nor No Man's Sky, Boneworks, SkyRim, Lone Echo, etc.... You basically get a 3 or 4 mobile class experiences and then you're done.

Yes you can use the link, but then you need an NVidia 1650 RTX or better which means you're a high end gamer already and so were not this supposed "mass market"

PSVR is still top selling VR and while cable and setup wise it's arguably the worst it at least has quality content.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by whywhywhywhy on Thursday April 23, 2020 @05:38AM (#22954249)
We just gonna ignore it runs Beatsaber and VRChat two arguably much more important and popular VR apps than that janky Skyrim port.

PCVR is an evolutionary dead end, few adults want giant PC towers in their homes anymore. Even when I demoed PCVR with amazing experiences like Lone Echo people lost interest when I told them no, it wont run on your macbook, you need a tower PC.

Yet I demoed them Beatsaber on the quest and a guy ordered one within a minute of taking the headset off, he demoed it at a family BBQ and two of his relatives bought it after.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by TeMPOraL on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:48AM (#22953179)
> The Quest is underpowered to run any of the truly compelling VR experiences.

It is, but it compensates by offering good enough experience while being untethered, self-contained and quick to start up. It may not matter for teenagers with expensive gaming rigs, but it matters for working adults with families, who otherwise don't have time and space to justify a VR gaming PC build.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by shafyy on Thursday April 23, 2020 @03:39AM (#22953670)
You can make the same arugment for gaming on smartphones, yet it's a huge and growing market. The truth is, most people don't care about the latest and best technology. They care about great games, and often times the best games don't need the cutting edge hardware (see Minecraft, Fornite).

Meanwhile, I've been playing the Echo VR alpha on my Quest (not Link) and it's fucking great.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by esyir on Thursday April 23, 2020 @10:39PM (#22964085)
It's also untethered, which is a far bigger deal than you think. I tried playing tethered and really didn't enjoy it that much, but wireless? That gets used multiple times a week.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by Agenttin on Thursday April 23, 2020 @10:16AM (#22956219)
Can anyone actually run No Man's Sky without tonnes of reprojection?
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by redis_mlc on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:45PM (#22952372)
> Techies will pay for hardware though. But it's got to be good hardware.

Technies will pay for hardware like the iPhone, that gets you laid. Not AR/VR, which makes you look like a dork and makes you seasick.

FTFY.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by didibus on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:18PM (#22951564)
I agree with you, but I also want to say it's often more complicated then this.

Like, the Apple Watch example seems easy, but what happened to FitBit? FitBit went all in on your idea. Picked a single use case with a market, delivered on it. Yet Apple swooped in, took the market from them. Why is that?

This is an open question, I don't claim to have the answer. It just seems that in this case, Apple was promising, as opposed to FitBit, that it would bring much more use cases to the user, a smartwatch on your wrist really, that seems like it was the messaging at least.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by npunt on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:52PM (#22951768)
Good counter-example. The reason is leverage. FitBit had nothing to leverage, whereas Watch had iPhone, Apple's manufacturing prowess, and Apple's entire market presence. There's a part of the essay that covers the leverage piece, but the quote that most applies (and may be most controversial here on HN) is:

> "a lack of leverage is one reason why category-defining products are rarely created by brand new startups."

This idea of course is distressing to product creators. You can create great products (focused, well-executed, nails the need) that don't succeed. Business can be pretty unfair like that.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by Crespyl on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:30PM (#22951641)
I'm probably oversimplifying, but there is some truth to the notion of Apple being as much a fashion company as they are a tech company, and smart-watches fit perfectly into that niche of fashion-tech.

FitBit was a good product, but Apple had more experience and resources available when they decided to enter the space.

Even so, I have no doubt there were other factors at play as well.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by npunt on Thursday April 23, 2020 @05:04AM (#22954089)
Yeah definitely! Fashion is itself a framing mechanism and a way to convey meaning, and part of any good product launch is having people understand your product the way you want it to be understood.

If one of the properties you want your product to have is being fashionable and communicate something about you, you have to both invest effort in making a product that reflects that need (through the design decisions of form & function), and gets people to understanding it through that lens (framing it through product marketing). It's a push and pull to create something fashion-forward, the product adapts to the market's needs, and the market shifts what's fashionable to include the product.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by pfraze on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:54AM (#22953207)
I think that's exactly what Pebble' problem was, unfortunately. It wasn't fashionable.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by sh87 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:23PM (#22951599)
Also curious is the case of Pebble. Great product, priced right, small set of customers who swore by it, did one thing really really well. Now its dead.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by Judgmentality on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:27PM (#22951623)
Pebble took on enormous debt expecting their market to just keep growing. They had a great product, but they thought they had the next iPhone. They bet big, and they went bankrupt (basically the acquisition cost was just to cover the cost of debt).

https://qz.com/857412/pebble-went-from-kickstarter-to-being-...

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by sh87 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:32PM (#22951654)
If you bet big, you may lose and eat the dust.

If you don't, and play cautiously, your competition will eat your market and starve you. You still eat the dust.

I just don't get it.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by Judgmentality on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:34PM (#22951674)
> I just don't get it.

Nobody likes to admit it, but luck is 99% of success.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by kmonsen on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:22PM (#22951913)
This is everywhere in life, luck is incredibly important. Everyone that is successful only see when they worked hard and were smart, not all the luck. Sure you need hard work and talent, but there are lies of people with that and no luck that fail or at least less successful.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by npunt on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:54PM (#22951776)
It isn't just luck. It's knowing what markets to enter and what markets to avoid. Pebble entered a market adjacent to iPhone and where Apple was likely to move next. It wasn't Pebble's market to win, it was Apple's to lose.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by kmonsen on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:31AM (#22952819)
It isn't just luck, far from it, but it is also luck. All the skill and determination in the world might not do you any good without some luck to come with it.

Of curse getting that skill and determination in the first place is largely luck based so there is that as well.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by eanzenberg on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:10AM (#22953013)
It was unlucky that the android watch, pebble and fitbits failed compared to apple? I don’t think so. Apple tied the whole experience together with their phone and airpods. Smart watches don’t live in a silo.

Google failed because they’re google; they don’t understand UX.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by stripline on Thursday April 23, 2020 @10:15AM (#22956205)
Apple didn't win because they "tied the whole experience together". Apple won because they're Apple, and an Apple watch is a status symbol. My middle schooler was adamant about upgrading his Android phone to an iPhone last year, because all the cool kids had iPhones.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by birdyrooster on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:53PM (#22951773)
You can only punch so far above your weight before reality comes crashing in. On the flip-side, if you are a huge company, this new market might not be worth the distraction (amongst your existing priorities). But if you are just the right size, with the correct competencies, gaining traction in the market will not only be attractive but will be something the company is actually capable of achieving. Of course companies grow and shrink in their capacity, so that is the luck of the timing.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by dwb on Thursday April 23, 2020 @07:05AM (#22954673)
It doesn't seem that complex to me – Apple has sacks of cash and is quite good at integration, especially given their existing reach. Taking on hugely powerful incumbents is almost guaranteed to fail. We only remember the handful who beat the odds. I mean to me this is a rubbish way to organise a society, but hugely powerful incumbents think it's fine, so that's what we have for now.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by luismmolina on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:59PM (#22952440)
I still use my pebble everyday, I prefer it over new watches. Sad to see them go
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by p1necone on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:35AM (#22953920)
> "What happened to FitBit?"

I was confused when reading this and googled market share - you're right, apparently Apple has a much larger chunk of that market than FitBit does. Either I live in an odd bubble, or the market is a lot different in New Zealand because I probably know 5 or so people with FitBits, and zero with Apple watches.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by Sophistifunk on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:31PM (#22951649)
Fitbit should have iterated on their devices, making them more accurate while maintaining "host platform" neutrality. Instead, they thought they were in a position to compete against Apple and Samsung in "tiny wrist computers" and the rest of the story is history.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by wmeredith on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @08:47PM (#22951735)
Fit it also had quality issues. My wife owned several and used all of them until they fell apart, which was always less than a year. They were garbage. Counterexample: I have g-shocks that have been abused for decades and are going strong.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by zaidf on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @11:25PM (#22952545)
...because they didn't have a killer app that could focus their efforts

This is easy to assume but a far more common reason companies go broad is that it makes it much easier to sell big vision and big dreams.

Most investors in magicleap probably wouldn’t have invested if the pitch was “right now we are focused 100% on a product that serves $INDUSTRY_X well before moving to $INDUSTRY_Y”

In fact, many investors wouldn’t even have taken the pitch, let alone writing a check

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by wastedhours on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:03AM (#22953771)
Completely agree - but for such a well funded company, surely they could have continued to try and sell unicorn tears on the front end, but spent some real time and effort to nail something on the backend.

This "pivot" seems like a play they should have been running in parallel regardless, considering they've had actual hardware on the go for a few years so far.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by npunt on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:33AM (#22953907)
Sure, selling a big vision is important to new startups. That's just one of many constraints and risks you have, but like all risks it can be navigated well or poorly. They could sell a big vision but also have a plan to increment there, but they didn't. I don't think that negates the fact that Magic Leap never presented what their groundbreaking idea was for why we needed AR.

If you're interested I do cover this among other things in the linked essay.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by jimmySixDOF on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:10PM (#22952199)
I agree with you the problem was loss of focus related but not in the way you frame it. MLeap's original focus was to deliver a transformative visual experience through Dynamic Light Field Display. This worked, was presented to investors, and made smart people's jaws drop. It took a room of equipment to deliver, but they were funded at risk by smart people to develop this experience in a consumer format.

Fast Forward so many years and what got delivered in ML1 ? A consumer format device not capable of delivering on that original vision experience.

Your comment suggests MLeap should have early on baked in expectations for a substandard visual experience in a first mass market consumer product. I disagree. Instead, they should have planned on miniaturization problems and baked in expectations for first delivery of a ground breaking visual experience product not available in a mass market consumer device footprint or price point.

MLeap's killer app should have been their visual experience. That was the day one focus and it got lost along the way, as you say 'pulled in a ton of different directions'.

I tell people I would have bought a $10,000 Motorcycle helmet with a backpack from MLeap if that was able to produce just a good part of original Dynamic Light Field AR experience. Is that a fast moving mass market consumer device ? No, but obviously the ML1 was not either.

I am reminded of Theranos and their maniacal insistence on using 'one drop of blood' and how it defined the format of every component, when it is possible they would have succeeded with just a little more flexibility on that design principle.

As with Theranos setting back the IoT medical space, I fear that the MLeap experience will set back spatial computing in the short to mid term, however I think both these fields are at very early stages of transforming our living environments over the long term.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by npunt on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:36AM (#22953927)
A "transformative visual experience" isn't a product, or a vision. It's a technology in search of a problem. They needed to demonstrate a clear use case, and determine if that was achievable with what they had. If it wasn't, they could always be an R&D lab instead. I don't know what you actually do with a $10k light field thing even if it is cool. If you want to make a category-defining product (which $2.6b in funding strongly suggests), you have to define the category, not just ship a thing.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by sek on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:36AM (#22953397)
I absolutely agree with the killer application part, even for business applications they still don't have any idea.

On their website you have a video that displays several use cases that don't make sense if you really think about them.

Just to dissect the first example where doctors look at a low resolution brain over a surgery table. I don't know why there is a woman without a device who thinks: "why are those three people looking over me here?". But I think the association is some kind of neurosurgery.

* Neurosurgeons know how a brain looks like inside, that's anatomy.

* If this depicts the CT or MRT of the woman, those are evaluated on high resolutions displays by radiologists.

* It's difficult to keep those devices sterile in a hospital environment.

Let's extend this into surgery. "Hey cool you can look inside the brain in real time". Why would a display not be enough in any other case?

* Doctors don't wear a heavy device with a limited field of view during a 5h surgery.

* There are devices with a high resolution display, that can show you in real time where you are inside the brain. I tried this device once with a melon, I could make the mental transition within a minute. Now imagine a neurosurgeon with all his skill.

* What if there is a problem with the image. Right now the doctor can look from the display inside the real brain and check if something is off. You can't take the unobstructed view from a doctor here.

The other two examples in the video are not much more convincing. The second one is solved by a warehouse navigation device. Maybe the last one, but a car showroom usually has a real car you can drive.... Even without it a VR Headset would solve the same issue. Why do they have to see their surroundings?

After so many years and that much money, that's the best they came up with?

I used the one from Microsoft in a museum, that could in theory be interesting. Make it more interactive. You had to stand at an exact position, it couldn't interact with its surroundings and my nose hurt because it was so heavy. I think the battery was empty after 15 minutes.

Just the complexity building a fully interactive museum, all the 3D artists and programmers that would take. What else you could improve with those resources to enhance the experience?

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by npunt on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:40AM (#22953952)
Yep, the videos are basically scifi shorts devoid of actual product thinking. It's like asking concept artists to draw a hospital of the future, knowing nothing about how hospitals operate. I saw this a lot in edtech, lots of wishful thinking put in products by people who didn't know how schools worked.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by disqard on Thursday April 23, 2020 @05:54PM (#22961981)
Regarding Ed Tech, for a merciless look at this recurring insanity, see Todd Oppenheimer's "The Flickering Mind", and in general, Kentaro Toyama's "Geek Heresy".
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by gtm1260 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:20PM (#22951898)
I think the biggest mistake that Magic Leap made is that they compromised on their hardware. Like you said, they tried to go general purpose which means low "enough" cost for devs to pick one up and build an app, for enthusiasts to try em out etc. But the thing is, they didn't have best in class hardware. I've tried one and its marginally better than a hololens 2. They could have gone all out with a vision prototype that wowed the world with its capabilities, instead they increased the field of view, slightly and made the form-factor slightly better.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by npunt on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:44AM (#22953980)
Even if they did make the world's greatest AR hardware of 2020, they wouldn't have a great product because they wouldn't have clear use cases to sell it, and it would be too hobbled by resource constraints of the available tech - much like pen computers of the 90s.

If it were the scifi-like AR glasses of the future, perhaps that would sell itself due to all the dreamed up ideas in movies and tv, but that's pretty far afield of what's possible today.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by baldfat on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:42PM (#22952027)
I want augmented reality for communication and for board gaming please. Someone focus on having cool Augment Reality chat where I can walk with a friend or family member and see them right next to me.

I also would like to play board games with my friends who no longer live close. Also if I was playing a game and they could be virtually sitting next to me so that we could communicate better that would also be great.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by hunta2097 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @09:57PM (#22952135)
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by exhilaration on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:23PM (#22952267)
I play board games using Tabletop Simulator on Steam with my buddies due to the pandemic, one of them uses an Oculus headset and he really likes it. We can't see each other's faces though.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by kats on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:34AM (#22953918)
I think that Magic Leap went on for years with just promises and marketing, and they never produced a demo or product. I guess they actually did release hardware a while ago, I didn't know. But for a long time it was just news about "Magic leap promises X" or "Magic leap raises money". But they didn't release a demo or product.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by TriNetra on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:04AM (#22952977)
Last month I read an interesting use-case of AR which helped in setting up air handling systems for newly setup hospitals in China Wuhan by a German technician using AR technology of an Indian start-up here https://www.business-standard.com/article/technology/here-s-...

So yes, I do agree that such specific purpose apps definitely validates and advances a new technology like AR.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by simonkafan on Thursday April 23, 2020 @05:11AM (#22954112)
To underline this statement, take a look at this "Spotify for AR" concept: https://mixed.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/spotify_magic_le...

Did someone at Magic Leap seriously think, people will buy an expensive AR device and wear it just to see virtual album covers placed on their table?

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by numpad0 on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:43PM (#22952364)
Was the Magic Leap naming intentional? I had always thought that that name carried the message in the clearest possible way. Were people not aware of that???
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by rburhum on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:14AM (#22952735)
Not having a specific well-defined use case... Under no circumstances would I call that a “product”. I would call it “really cool tech” at best, but I can’t fathom how a “multi-billion company” can’t figure that out. Yes, this gives me obvious schadenfreude...
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by Peaches4Rent on Thursday April 23, 2020 @09:18AM (#22955584)
If you want to pick a usecase for any new idea the best usecase you can think of is pornography.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by bsanr2 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @10:14AM (#22956188)
I don't know if the Apple Watch is a great example of product strategy, specifically, driving success. Pebble and other companies established those use cases first, but failed to get traction.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by FrojoS on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:37AM (#22953935)
> they tried to create a general purpose product because they didn't have a killer app that could focus their efforts.

Couldn't you have said the same of the Apple II or IBM PC?

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by bsanr2 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @10:47AM (#22956602)
Those were years after PCs had made a foothold in (well-off) US households because they allowed you to do digital word-processing and spreadsheets at home.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by AbrahamParangi on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:16AM (#22956921)
The flip side is that sometimes a product within the scope of your tech does not exist yet.

Sometimes, for some products, you have to build.

Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by ethbro on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @11:29PM (#22952558)
Or to put it another way: geeks fall in love with capability, but everyone else wants utility.
Re:Magic Leap reportedly slashes jobs and steps away from co... by gfodor on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:19AM (#22953049)
Would be curious on your take on my essay here wrt choosing the optimal features/scope:

https://medium.com/@gfodor/the-secret-mozilla-hubs-master-pl...

tl;dr, avatar based communication will require basic voice/body language, mixed media, globally addressable spaces on the web. no fancy scripting, crypto, etc etc.