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Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by partiallypro on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:01PM (#22895220)
My take on this whole thing, is the Amazon basically wrote the entire scope...so they just thought they were going to win because only they would meet it (this was a bit of a scandal just a few months back.) They bid high, and then they lost. Now they are mad that their lobbying wasn't a 100% success, so they are suing. It's all so very Amazon.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by roel_v on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:16PM (#22895306)
Having been on the winning side of a contract once for a bid that was clearly 100% written by a competitor, the Big Dog in our industry, in such a way that they absolutely thought only they could ever be meeting the terms - and then winning that bid by offering a better product at a lower price, and faster, I can a little bit imagine how satisfying this win must have been for the Microsoft bid manager or whatever they'd be called. And my project was only 6 digits.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by wahern on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:50PM (#22895489)
> then winning that bid by offering a better product at a lower price, and faster,

Did you actually deliver on time and on budget?

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by roel_v on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:52PM (#22895781)
Just a little over time, and it was fixed budget. Timing wise still much better than the norm in our industry.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by koheripbal on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:25PM (#22895353)
Amazon has put a LOT of money into DC. From setting up an HQ2 in DC to Bezos personally purchasing the largest mansion in the city to host event for political power brokers.

It should be no surprise that he's pissed that that amount of investment isn't starting to pay dividends.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by pnw_hazor on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:11PM (#22895590)
IBM and Oracle also protested the bidding/RFP process. Their protests were dismissed twice so far. Once by the agency and again by a judge. Oracle has appealed the judge's dismissal of their protest.

In contrast, Amazon's protest resulted in an injunction because the judge determined it was likely Amazon would prevail in trial.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by KarlKemp on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:21PM (#22895637)
You are mixing up "DC the actual city" and "DC as a synonym for politics".

DoD couldn't care less about Bezos' mansion or HQ2's impact on the city's economy.

And running a newspaper that continuously annoys a President doesn't really fit the apparently popular idea that Bezos is spending money to get favourable treatment from politicians.

Especially when that politician you're annoying is known to have a somewhat vindictive streak and doesn't quite grok the difference between being entrusted money and power to use on behalf of a country and owning money and spending it in his own interest

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by GCSAQCMIYI on Thursday April 16, 2020 @11:02PM (#22895830)
>DoD couldn't care less about Bezos' mansion or HQ2's impact on the city's economy.

How do you know that?

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by GCSAQCMIYI on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:49PM (#22895769)
>And running a newspaper that continuously annoys a President doesn't really fit the apparently popular idea that Bezos is spending money to get favourable treatment from politicians.

At least from outward appearances, most of the ruling class and permanent government isn't particularly fond of the current President.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by r_luna on Friday April 17, 2020 @02:13AM (#22896677)
That's what our current President and his "deep state" wants you to believe. However, after three + years it's pretty obvious that our President has a firm grip on power. He still plays the victim every once in a while. But all the departments are quite clearly bowing and pleasing him as best they can.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by jlj on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:38AM (#22899320)
> He still plays the victim every once in a while.

Try continuously. Every problem is someone else's fault, and every success is solely because of him.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by Aeolun on Friday April 17, 2020 @02:40AM (#22896777)
Or giving that appearance while they wait it out?
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by smabie on Friday April 17, 2020 @04:10AM (#22897135)
Is there a difference?
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by SuoDuanDao on Friday April 17, 2020 @06:31AM (#22897776)
I don't know about that, he wasn't able to get the press to play nice on COVID the way it did during swine flu.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by audiometry on Friday April 17, 2020 @12:15PM (#22900273)
This swine flu comparison is an ignorant canard. I will be glad when I can downvote chaff comments like this.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by derstander on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:27AM (#22898782)
In the US the press is not part of the state.

Also the swine flu was much less of a problem for the US: the CDC reported less than 13,000 deaths in the US over a one year period vs stats today of over 34,000 for COVID-19 in just a few months — despite the extra precautions taken.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by jazzyk on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:56AM (#22898993)
Slightly off-topic, but if you consider that 90% of "mainstream" media is owned by 6 huge corporations, which are interested in maintaining crony capitalism (of which the state is a central player) - then it would not be completely outlandish to think that the press is kinda part of state (conceptually speaking)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_of_media_ownersh...

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by cvlasdkv on Friday April 17, 2020 @03:26PM (#22902129)
it's the difference between explicit and invisible force. people in favour of capitalism (in all its forms) consider the invisible forces "the way the world works".
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by SuoDuanDao on Friday April 17, 2020 @12:49PM (#22900608)
Eh, fair point that the epidemics were different scales, when I first saw that comparison they were still fairly close in terms of impact to the States.

Still, it seems to me that the Trump administration originally clearly wanted to go for a 'herd immunity' strategy and changed it due to political rather than practical considerations. I'm quite sure that if it had the relationship with the fifth estate that, say, the Biden campaign enjoys, there would have been very little political fallout as a result. The press has managed the truth far more aggressively for other administrations.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by GCSAQCMIYI on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:34PM (#22895400)
Not to mention the newspaper.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by smitty1e on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:07PM (#22895574)
It's worth not mentioning.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by GCSAQCMIYI on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:46PM (#22895753)
Do you think he bought it because he really likes journalism?
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by chadcmulligan on Thursday April 16, 2020 @11:05PM (#22895846)
Here's an interview with him here about it [1]

It seems he had a mix of reasons, he says. No doubt now that it's a functioning entity he has an added bonus. I remember at the time though most people thought he was throwing good money after bad.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/stephaniedenning/2018/09/19/why...

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by chadcmulligan on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:16PM (#22904806)
I wasn't defending Bezos - just putting forward the situation at the time. I feel the idea that this is some brilliant forward plan of domination isn't correct, sure it was a possibility but the element of risk was one that everyone else walked away from. Respect to him for that, having said that, I disagree with a lot of his business practices, but that seems to be the current business environment - he's just working within the rules. The rules need to change.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by GCSAQCMIYI on Thursday April 16, 2020 @11:17PM (#22895899)
The reasons he gives for buying it don't tell us anything. His net worth is in the 12 figures. Everything he says publicly is crafted by a well paid and highly competent PR team.

If he bought it to gain political influence, which seems to me the only reason that makes any sense whatsoever, or for any other reason that would put him in a bad light, he would not in a million years come out and say that openly.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by marcus_holmes on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:26AM (#22898378)
No idea why you're getting downvoted. This is the guy who refuses to pay his shareholders a dividend, or his employees more than he absolutely has to. He didn't buy a newspaper because he loves giving money away on good causes.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by mrep on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:52AM (#22899449)
> This is the guy who refuses to pay his shareholders a dividend

Amazons share price has grown 136,000% in the past 23 years or 36.8% per year. That is far above S&P 500 returns and the exact case for when you want a company reinvesting in themself instead of paying out dividends.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by smitty1e on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:32AM (#22898821)
No, failure to control the spigot equates to lack of influence over the output.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by GCSAQCMIYI on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:58AM (#22899012)
Do you have some personal insight into the minds of WP employees? Do you have first-hand knowledge that the identity of the owner of the business has had no impact on any of their decisions, like who to hire or what to publish?

Leaders like Bezos don't have to write down a memo to make sure people carry out their will.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by coffeefirst on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:10AM (#22899100)
Actually, I do.

You're wildly underestimating how rebellious newspaper editors are. If someone was messing with the reporting, everyone in DC would know, and you'd see remarkably detailed reporting on it throughout other parts of the press.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by smitty1e on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:17AM (#22899146)
I would offer that the Project Veritas expose of CNN belies your assertion handily.

There is a mindset that dominates academia and carries on into the media.

It is reflected in the political donations of journalists.

And the distribution of the story bias.

It perhaps one should say "stunning lack of anything resembling a distribution".

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by pstuart on Friday April 17, 2020 @12:53PM (#22900659)
Of course academia is a "radical left" arena, as it's the domain of our youth and that is a natural expression of their view of the world.

All news has bias, but some are more biased than others, and that bias varies from personal and ingrained to organizational and intentional. It's important to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were.

Project Veritas is a right-wing, extremely partisan organization with a shady history. They are not an organization that I would trust.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by smitty1e on Friday April 17, 2020 @04:13PM (#22902541)
Not to accuse James O'Keefe of sainthood, but I've an order of magnitude more regard for him and Veritas than any of the cable news networks.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by pstuart on Saturday April 18, 2020 @05:31PM (#22911261)
We're in dangerous political territory, so I'll preface my question in the context of being genuinely curious and not judgmental (of you).

My awareness of him is from several "stunts" where he "went undercover" and interviewed his targets surreptitiously and then dishonestly edited the results to support his ideological narrative.

I associate cable news with general incompetence, corporate shilling and whatnot, but generally a "noisy" signal. PV, on the other hand, is driven purely by right-wing ideological goals.

[dead]
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by smitty1e on Friday April 17, 2020 @04:15PM (#22902546)
I'm unsurprised but the commitment to Orthodoxy here on HN.

I've experienced copious carpet bombings for deviations from the Received Truth, however mild and documented.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by skrebbel on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:48AM (#22897592)
How is Bezos buying a big house an investment in the city? Come on.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by sabujp on Friday April 17, 2020 @06:23AM (#22897734)
seriously? inviting politicians and lobbyists to parties on your own dime?
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by Ari_Ugwu on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:12AM (#22898312)
Seems it's less a 'party' and more a networking event where I'm sure your competitors are not invited. Also less 'your own dime' and more a business expense that helps Bezos skirt even more taxes. I can't see it as an investment in the city.

Maybe if he bought and renovated an apartment building. Held events in a top floor space. Transformed the lobby into a community business and tech center.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by detaro on Friday April 17, 2020 @06:42PM (#22903666)
It's not investment "in DC" as in "into the betterment of the city", but as in "in the area of DC (to promote to the powers there)".
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by ross2990 on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:10PM (#22895281)
When JEDI was first proposed, AWS had already been the vast majority of cloud services for the Intelligence community. This led to them having a distinct advantage because they already had the certified infrastructure to handle US Secret and Top Secret information. This was (in my own thoughts) why that immediate capability was stressed so much in the initial request for proposal.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by partiallypro on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:23PM (#22895343)
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by sailfast on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:16PM (#22895307)
First off - I don't know that it's normal for a competing company in a protest to post a press release like this. I know things have gotten nuts recently and people protest for giggles these days, but this seems... weird.

I also wonder to a certain extent why additional ceiling was not added under the current vehicle to do this if AWS was the preferred solution. MOUs signed, dollars routed, etc seems to be the easiest route rather than a massive procurement for something like this. It doesn't make any sense unless they're awarding an entirely new data center.

It also sounds like there's a disagreement about a core requirement / availability definitions which significantly impact storage costs, which obviously would change one's bid? https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252480585/AWS-hits-out-a...

DoD IG Report on the process: https://www.scribd.com/document/456555063/Report-on-the-Join...

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by blackflame7000 on Friday April 17, 2020 @03:24AM (#22896937)
The intelligence community uses SIPRNet or JWICS, not AWS that can be breached by some dev-ops as evidenced by the capital one incident.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by mr_overalls on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:25AM (#22899214)
In addition to those systems, they use an Amazon-built private cloud.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/07/the-d...

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by jlgaddis on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:35AM (#22899299)
> The intelligence community uses SIPRNet or JWICS ...

... and AWS GovCloud [0].

---

[0]: https://aws.amazon.com/government-education/government/

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by sterlind on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:08PM (#22895269)
I work for MS but don't know anything about the bidding process. I was a little surprised we won, but now it makes sense. I feel like even if they can't get the DoD to let them re-bid now that they have proprietary information on us and our bid, they'll tie us up in court as long as they can to keep us from successfully delivering. They want to maintain the head start they made with GovCloud as long as possible and keep other companies out. Icky.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by DoofusOfDeath on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:22PM (#22895337)
> They want to maintain the head start they made with GovCloud as long as possible and keep other companies out. Icky.

I'm not picking on you as an individual, but there's great justice in Microsoft suffering this.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by alasdair_ on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:25PM (#22895354)
I agree, it’s terribly unfair when companies use their dominant market position to crowd out would-be entrants.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by sharemywin on Thursday April 16, 2020 @11:38PM (#22895979)
I'm confused which company are you referring to? oh, wait every dominant giant company ever...
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by keeganpoppen on Friday April 17, 2020 @03:22AM (#22896925)
oh, ^please^... not "every dominant giant company ever" has been found by U.S. federal court to have engaged in monopolistic / anti-competitive behavior. legality aside, that's to say nothing of all their no-walter-its-not-illegal-youre-just-an-asshole shenanigans contemporaneous with, and preceding, the lawsuit.

playing dumb and conflating what Microsoft did with "every dominant giant company ever" only serves to whitewash a (well-deserved) reputation that they themselves have had to work to disavow (both in word, publically, and in deed) for years. incidentally, this feels quite similar to how the Bill Gates Foundation whitewashes its eponymous benefactor's legacy having been the driving force behind said ruthlessness.*

* please don't make me put in a disclaimer about how people / companies can change, etc.-- we all know-- this is about preserving the past, not casting aspersions on these entities in the present

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by close04 on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:36AM (#22897532)
> not "every dominant giant company ever" has been found by U.S. federal court

That's only because as times changed so did the US mostly lost interest in punishing or even investigating its own companies (that's subjectively understandable, nobody wants to hit their own). Voices say they're trying to change this, we'll just have to wait and see.

On the other hand I'm sure you agree that "U.S. federal court" is not the global standard in justice. And since the EU has no "home player" bias their courts did not shy away from investigating and fining big-tech monopolies like Google or Facebook.

"Playing dumb" and conflating Microsoft with exclusivity in the abuse of market position doesn't do this discussion any service. Your comment is strongly undermined by this clear bias.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by keeganpoppen on Sunday April 26, 2020 @02:10AM (#22984952)
it's been long enough you may not even see this, but i appreciated the fair, well-reasoned response so i figured i would respond (paragraph-by-paragraph correspondence to your comment above):

- fair enough point, i agree that it is debatable whether Microsoft was "particularly deserving" of this reputation because of the limited scope and interest of the justice dept., etc., though on balance i still _personally_ find it most likely that they stood out in their bad-actor-ness in some way

- wtf is a "global standard in justice"? the existence of that is news to me. unless it is rather just "whatever court makes the kinds of judgments i agree with"? if the EU judicial process (to determine whether the EU should fine some exogenous bag of money an enormous amount of money) is so impartial, then why was their biggest upshot to put Margrethe Vestager, a maximally-ambitious politician, on the map? i know you're just trying to suggest an alternate judicial authority, but come on: you picked one that is even less likely to have been a "global standard in justice", whatever that is. and that all is to apparently exonerate Microsoft because a couple other companies, that grew up in Microsoft's shadow, used the same playbook later on?

- though i appreciate the argumentative tone / parallelism thing going on here, i think it's a biit of a stretch in this case-- i don't really feel like i'm conflating them at all. the valence of my comment is definitely that "Microsoft deserves to stand out here", not that they are uniquely guilty of this by any measure.

and, re bias: ultimately, insofar as i am "biased" (an affliction that actually affects everyone, regardless of opinion :^) it is because they (Microsoft) hurt my feelings by doing a bunch of mean things to technologically-related stuff that i loved during my techno-formative years. so, yeah--their abuses of market power stood out more to me than they may have to others, and are clearly grounded in a personal, subjective value judgment. the world still revolved then, and still continues to revolve-- there are more important abuses of power to be truly exercised about in the world, etc., etc.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by mrkramer on Friday April 17, 2020 @04:08AM (#22897121)
What Microsoft did with Internet Explorer maybe looked dirty back in the day but ironically enough United States v. Microsoft Corp. suit started in 1998, the same year when Google was founded and quickly after conquered the internet with its search engine and internet browser. Innovations will always displace dominant products and the cycle goes on and on.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by erpellan on Saturday April 18, 2020 @05:31AM (#22906447)
That is nowhere close to how ruthlessly they crushed competitors well before that. Microsoft are why you've probably never heard of Supercalc, Lotus/123 and WordPerfect. All superior products in the 80s and 90s, all crushed by MS strong-arm tactics of forcing PC manufacturers to sell machines with Windows and Office pre-installed.

They even destroyed companies they weren't even competing with, but thought they _might_ want to later! All MS needed to do was issue a vague press release that they were working on a competitor to [some successful software product] and all the customers would hold off on purchases until the original (successful) company went bankrupt. Many times MS never ever released anything, leaving everyone worse off.

So yeah. They seem nicer now, but they climbed over a lot of dead companies to get here.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by CPLX on Friday April 17, 2020 @07:32AM (#22898086)
There’s a strong argument to be made that putting MS on the defensive about antitrust in the late 90’s is the reason so many other dominant tech companies were able to get a foothold in the 5-10 years following.

Which also points to why we are in today’s predicament, having abandoned antitrust entirely.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by jamessb on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:11AM (#22898299)
> founded and quickly after conquered the internet with its search engine and internet browser

Google didn't release the first version of Chrome until 2008, 10 years later.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by caseysoftware on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:22PM (#22895341)
More precisely, it looks like Amazon hired the DOD guy who helped write the scope. Being involved in those pre-RFP discussions, understanding the reasoning, and secondary undocumented concerns would be immensely valuable.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by partiallypro on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:26PM (#22895359)
And Bezos sits on the Pentagon defense innovation advisory board. Eric Schmidt is the chairman, but he's no longer with Google, and GCS is probably too young for the Pentagon for this sort of use case.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by guru4consulting on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:32AM (#22899277)
Btw, this is a widely known practice (not sure if it's legally accepted though). Government contractors often play a big role in shaping the RFI/RFP requirements. This is a multi-year process that involves socializing, discovering the legacy/obsolete systems in client environment, learning about their business side, identifying pain points in the gov customer side, etc. Big contractors like Raytheon, CACI, SAIC have a well-defined and stream-lined process for this. This is where smaller contractors or startups find it very difficult to get into gov contracting because they don't have the kind of access that Raytheon/CACI has. So, I don't see any surprise in AWS giving inputs for shaping DoD requirements.

Cutting all the politics and legalities, is n't AWS superior to Azure? I guess Azure's major revenue is still from MS-office subscriptions, but AWS is more battled hardened, more reliable and has more variety of services than Azure. At least, that's my perception.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by lstroud on Friday April 17, 2020 @06:35PM (#22903632)
That said, from a citizens standpoint, if the government is going to only pick one, I can’t imagine it not being AWS. The difference in capability and capacity isn’t within an order of magnitude.
Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by IAmEveryone on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:05PM (#22895559)
There's considerable evidence that Amazon lost this because the President doesn't like The Washington Post.

Even assuming the accusations against Amazon are true as well: what's worse? (a) A vendor gaining unfair advantage and overcharging by 10%? Or, (b), the President using the power of the federal government to punish journalists for criticising him?

The Washington Post was, by the way, the newspaper that uncovered that the Trump Foundation had spent their complete budget at Trump properties or for personal expenditures such as the famous painting.

This was several million $, all donated by members of the public, ostensibly intended to help veterans. These accusations lead to a court case, which the foundation lost, requiring it to be shut down and his children being barred from serving on non-profit boards in the future.

So, to answer the choice from the beginning: if you choose (b) and allow the WashPo and other media to be pressured into silence, you'll lose the free press and still get the corruption.

Re:It bid high and lost. Should Amazon be allowed a do-over ... by JamesBarney on Friday April 17, 2020 @02:56AM (#22896829)
Mind linking to or sharing some of the evidence for b? I had heard rumors about that on reddit, but hadn't seen anything concrete.