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Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by edm0nd on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @10:11AM (#22299047)
I'm pretty sure the US government is why the TrueCrypt devs stopped all work. They got hit with a national security letter (NSL) or heavily leaned on and pressured to stop making their product so awesome and un-breakable.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:48PM (#22300569)
From the TrueCrypt webpage: http://truecrypt.sourceforge.net/

> WARNING: Using TrueCrypt is not secure as it may contain unfixed security issues

The fact that they use awkward wording that contains words whose first letters that start with NSA (not secure as) is pretty suggestive that you are right.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by pstuart on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:51PM (#22300615)
Wow. In a different timeline I'd dismiss that as tinfoil hat time, but in this one it seems spot on.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by maxerickson on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @04:51PM (#22303302)
Is the idea that there would be consequences for a blatant message but not for a sort of more subtle one?
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by lawnchair_larry on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @05:01PM (#22303390)
Nope, still tinfoil hat. This is just apophenia.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by pstuart on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @01:32AM (#22306425)
Thank you for the new word.

You make your case as if you have proof, which you likely don't. It's a moot point.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by ta999999171 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @04:47PM (#22303262)
> tinfoil hat time

This trope needs to die already.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by pfundstein on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @06:35PM (#22304155)
What would you suggest instead? It's a good way to convey unfounded paranoia or to acknowledge that what you're saying sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by glitchdigger on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @12:47AM (#22306176)
> talking bout NSA

“Unfounded” paranoia

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by ta999999171 on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @03:36AM (#22307037)
There's nothing wrong with conspiracy theory. They regularly turn into conspiracy fact.

That's not a dirty phrase either - regardless of what the media memo said back then.

That's what I'm suggesting.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by maqp on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @02:23PM (#22301688)
No the actual message is "Using TrueCrypt" -> UTC -> Coordinated Universal Time. The real culprit are the time thieves as explained in the book "Momo and the Time Thieves".

Your mind will see what it wants.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by Invictus0 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @02:34PM (#22301822)
It's plausible to think that that message constitutes a warrant canary [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by sethherr on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @03:42PM (#22302613)
Not mutually exclusive, it's possible the Momo and the time thieves and the NSA are working together - the UTC is NSA, is the combined message
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by ta999999171 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @04:48PM (#22303275)
Do you think you're making a point, or just being edgy with your humor?

For some people out there, this kinda shit keeps them safe/alive.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by maqp on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @02:44PM (#22312080)
There's nothing that shows TrueCrypt is backdoored. Read the audit by nccgroup: https://opencryptoaudit.org/reports/TrueCrypt_Phase_II_NCC_O...

There were vulnerabilities in the software, but nothing that allows the governments to break the encryption with. The Windows client had some privilege escalation attack but that doesn't allow decryption of data at rest. On Linux TrueCrypt is still fine to use, the only downside is, the password based key derivation function is starting to show it's age. However, provided your password is around 128 bits, that's not a problem.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by ta999999171 on Friday February 14, 2020 @10:30PM (#22333008)
Missing the point.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by paulryanrogers on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:49PM (#22301324)
Indeed, a great call out. Props also to the French company sponsoring the Veracrypt fork.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by jfk13 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @05:58PM (#22303878)
Doesn't seem like awkward wording to me (as a native English speaker, fwiw); just a routine disclaimer.

I suppose the fact that it contains words that start with TIN (TrueCrypt is not) provides sufficient justification for your hat, anyhow.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by Someone1234 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @10:40AM (#22299289)
I'm sure they were pressured, but the USG has deep pockets if they wanted someone to stop doing something they just throw a few million at them and call it done, there's far less chance of PR blowback then.

Even just reading this article should show you that they kill you with kindness when they want to keep things hush-hush. If someone is developing a free tool, and are offered a retirement-tier payoff to stop, they're going to stop.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by monocasa on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @11:01AM (#22299450)
They didn't kill lavabit with kindness.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by jhart99 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:14PM (#22300910)
I always assumed that this is exactly what happened to Skype and Whatsapp.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by paganel on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:38PM (#22301197)
I’m in the exact same boat as you. I’m on mobile and lazy to post links, but Whatsapp’s acquisition was carried through a boutique investment bank which had former CIA director George Tenet on its board of directors. Anyway, I found a quick link about the bank [1], it’s called Allen & Co. And also let’s not forget that the precursor of Google Maps was funded with CIA venture capital money. I’m stil curious why and how the Russians let the Google StreetView car do its thing on the roads of Russia.

[1] https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/facebook-whatsapp-puts-all...

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by secfirstmd on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @07:00PM (#22304327)
Also that one of the founders shifted his support to Signal...
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by whatshisface on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:29PM (#22300362)
If an average person got a huge windfall, that would raise a lot of attention, and people would wonder how they got the money. Police use sudden unexplained riches as a way to watch out for criminal activity, and everyone who knew the receiver of the windfall would ask questions. Between $10M and the other option, it may be easier to kill them with killing.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by K0SM0S on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @06:24PM (#22304076)
Agencies routinely set up fake businesses for cover, with the cooperation of insiders at big names (e.g. Dell). So you set up a fake SaaS, have your big name client buy the big thing 25k / CPU x however many you need to reach payout, done. All legitimized by a fancy public stock name.

If things really get too hot, it's easy to send a letter to any country's IRS via their local intell agency.

You'd be surprised how simple it is to close files in this world. I'd suggest reading Snowden's autobiography, Permanent Record. Very eye-opening and a great read.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by rebuilder on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @10:50AM (#22299386)
I'm not sure that makes sense. The US could compel the devs to compromise their product but not keep them from issuing a cryptic statement and stopping work on the product?
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:44PM (#22300538)
Well, there is an argument that IC does not have a problem with other interested parties chasing their tail trying to figure out what that really meant similar to the way government occassionally releases few tidbits about Kennedy assasination just to keep the flames flowing and activist distracted from what is going on right now.

There is value in misdirection.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by criddell on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @10:57AM (#22299429)
It doesn't make sense for two reasons to me. For one, the government can't compel you to do work. That's slavery.

Also, it's open source software. TrueCrypt going down didn't change the security landscape at all.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by SkyBelow on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:22PM (#22300994)
The government can. For example, take how the police will turn individuals into informants by getting them on trumped up drug charges and then offering them a deal if they work for the government, including engaging in acts that put them at risk of being killed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Rachel_Hoffman

The end result is "Work for us or go to prison."

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by ceejayoz on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:24PM (#22301011)
> For one, the government can't compel you to do work. That's slavery.

Slavery's perfectly legal. The 13th Amendment:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat...

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by criddell on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @02:50PM (#22302058)
Are you suggesting the TrueCrypt authors had been duly convicted of a crime?
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by ceejayoz on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @05:38PM (#22303750)
I am not. I am pointing out that the Constitutional provisions preventing slavery have a loophole big enough to drive an aircraft carrier through.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by brewdad on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @04:06PM (#22302849)
He's saying they easily could have been.

See: Three Felonies a Day

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by rebuilder on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @03:29PM (#22302470)
Like the government (of any given state) can't rendition you or assassinate you if they deem it necessary for national security reasons?

I think under the right conditions, a good many state intelligence services would not let the letter of the law get in their way. I just don't think the particular scenario above makes sense.

What makes sense:

-devs discovered some vulnerability but were persuaded that disclosing it would endanger important operations in progress. They were not coerced but reached a compromise with (agency).

-Devs were told, in no uncertain terms, that they need to discourage use of Truecrypt. Seems kind of low-impact, so probably not the case.

- Truecrypt was an (agency) project all along, and the faction arguing for universal access to strong cryptography finally lost out. The cat being out of the bag, and given the difficulty of introducing new vulnerabilities into an open-source tool used by the professionally paranoid, the best option was to try to discredit Truecrypt to the extent possible.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by kube-system on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:49PM (#22301332)
> For one, the government can't compel you to do work. That's slavery.

That may be your personal opinion, but legally speaking, it is not true in any sense.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by apodysophilia on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:54PM (#22301389)
It is also the argument that Apple used against the FBI in the San Bernardino case.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by kube-system on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @04:20PM (#22302986)
I'm just taking issue with the quoted claim at face value, outside of the context. Consider for example, the legality of jury duty, conscription, subpoenas, taxation, traffic stops, etc. Government-compelled actions are common and legal.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by dboreham on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:40PM (#22300485)
They offer you a large contract to do <something>, then they require that <some guy> they nominate work with you on the project. That guy introduces the backdoor.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by vfclists on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:30PM (#22301087)
Why then aren't they able to do the same with LUKS, dm-crypt, cryfs, bitlocker etc?

Does that mean they are only available because the 3 letter agencies can hack them?

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by lawnchair_larry on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @05:10PM (#22303477)
You must have a low threshold for “pretty sure”, because there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest this. Also, it’s open source. Also, the author recommended bitlocker as a replacement. Also, the authors may not even be American (the original author of E4M wasn’t). Doesn’t really add up.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by tptacek on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @10:25AM (#22299158)
Of all the cryptographic tools to mythologize, a crappy last-generation full-disk encryption tool?
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by jonathanpierre on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:36PM (#22300432)
Is that just a rant or do you have an actual reason to call TrueCrypt crappy? It was at least somewhat solid and it definitely had a great mindshare at the time. It wasn't niche.

Also, describing small-scale intervention in cryptography by services "mythologic" in a thread about news about large-scale intervention in cryptography by those services is a bit odd.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by tptacek on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:53PM (#22300635)
I don't even understand the theory underneath this supposed conspiracy, since full-disk encryption is utterly mainstream at this point. I also don't need to get too deep into what I don't like about TrueCrypt; use it if you like it. The problem is with the model of full-disk encryption; outside of phones with deeply integrated hardware designs that support it, FDE is the least powerful form of encryption we use. It wasn't even a speed bump for the Ulbricht investigators.

By all means: enable FDE. You have to turn it on. It's not optional. But the threat it defends against is not the threat many people think it defends against. It's hard to imagine it being such a priority that any government would launch a conspiracy to shut down an open source project.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by jonathanpierre on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:10PM (#22300858)
Again: why do you use such belittling words like "conspiracy theory"? We know that the services interfere. We know that they interfered with vendors of cryptography products. And we know that National Security Letters exist, as do other – legal – means to pressure such vendors. There is no conspiracy needed for them to try to pressure someone by, say, threatening them with denial of a entry visa. Or they could have simply tried to buy them off which they might not have liked. It's not a crazy idea by any stretch.

> It wasn't even a speed bump for the Ulbricht investigators.

Are you talking about the situation where they had to very carefully snatch a running laptop from a suspect so that they can't lock it? Seems to me like FDE would have been at least a significant speedbump had they not circumvented it. Why else would they go to such trouble? And what would they have done if the suspect hadn't used his laptop in a public place?

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by tptacek on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @02:16PM (#22301614)
We in fact do not know that NSLs of the form suggested in the root comment exist. Such an NSL, requiring developers to stop work on a project, would in fact be unprecedented. It is, in fact, a conspiracy theory. In reality, the exact opposite thing occurs: the USG-backed Broadcast Board of Governors actively funds cryptographic privacy technology, both through direct grants to projects and, to head off other conspiracy theories, in much harder-to-subvert grants to 3rd party pentesters to find and report vulnerabilities in those tools.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by PuffinBlue on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @03:05PM (#22302222)
Pretty sure you misinterpreted that comment. It's not suggesting that they pressured the devs to stop work, it says they were pressured to stop making it so awesome. The inference being that they were pressured to weaken the product and they walked away instead.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by Floegipoky on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @03:46PM (#22302653)
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by tptacek on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @04:02PM (#22302801)
Lavabit was a service that effectively held keys for its users and was compelled to disclose them. If we were discussing whether a vulnerable service was somehow compelled by the USG, I wouldn't argue. I doubt you'd even need an NSL compromise Lavabit; you might even be able to do it with routine civil litigation. Don't ever use things like Lavabit. That's why we talk about "end to end encryption", as opposed to the bad kind of encryption.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by maqp on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @02:57PM (#22312189)
Lavabit also sent the private keys from their servers to clients using TLS that utilized RSA for key exchange. Levison was to put it into a word, a fool, for letting that happen. Once he had to submit the private RSA-key for the certificate, FBI could decrypt every past session, and every private key of every user. IMO he'd have to put a hell of a lot of effort if I'm ever going to look at his creations again.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by tptacek on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @04:40PM (#22313097)
It was a deeply irresponsible service for Levison to be selling to people.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by tptacek on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @03:33PM (#22302527)
An NSL to that effect would also be unprecedented. There is no evidence that anything like that has ever happened.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by abtinf on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:52AM (#22309800)
While not an NSL, we do know USG leans on companies to implement weaker/breakable cryptography. There is at least one public example (attempts to compel Apple), and presumably there are many more successful undocumented attempts.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by est31 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:33PM (#22301128)
> what would they have done if the suspect hadn't used his laptop in a public place?

Screw open his laptop when it's turned off and he's away from home, install a keylogger into the bios. Put a camera onto the shelf to film which keys he types to log in. If he puts a blanket over his head: solely rely on the sound each key makes. Hack his computer remotely using one of the government owned 0days and dump the keys. Use side channels to attain the password via the power outlet in the neighbouring house.

They had countless ways and they chose the one that revealed the least about their capabilities.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by jack_pp on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @03:13PM (#22302297)
While what you are saying is possible technically, assuming any and all investigators in the US can tap into such capabilities is just FUD.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by tptacek on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @03:59PM (#22302778)
The biggest problem with FDE is that as long as you're using the encrypted computer, FDE isn't protecting you. It doesn't take technical capabilities to exploit this; you just wait until the target has their laptop open to do the interdiction.

FDE's not worthless. Again, I don't think it's even optional; one of your laptops is eventually going to get stolen, and you're going to want the reassurance that at the very least, once it loses power, the thief won't have access to your data (meaning, in effect, that most thieves will never have access to your data). And it's somewhat more powerful on phones, which have integrated designs to make FDE more granular.

But the idea that of all the things the USG could spend energy on, aftermarket FDE software would be their target? It's not very plausible.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by abtinf on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:56AM (#22309825)
Are Apple's new machines with T2 secure enclave less vulnerable in this regard? They claim all storage encryption goes through the chip, making it more like an integrated phone design.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by est31 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @04:32PM (#22303108)
Yeah, on the county sheriff level those capabilities are probably not available. However, Ulbricht was target of investigations on a federal level. He was arrested by FBI agents.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by ta999999171 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @09:04PM (#22305087)
Or...properly assessing risk?
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by shalmanese on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @10:02PM (#22314996)
Yeah, but are there any other forms of encryption that could have mitigated any of those attacks? Once your adversary has physical access to your environment/hardware, it's pretty much game over for security.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by barrkel on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:00PM (#22300710)
AIUI it was a speedbump for Ulbricht; didn't they need to ambush him in a library in order to ensure they had access to his laptop's contents?

(I mean, sure, it didn't protect him in the end. But it was a speedbump.)

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by pvg on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @02:30PM (#22301788)
ambush him in a library

Someone started talking to him while someone else snagged his laptop - a thing you and a friend can do to more or less anyone. It's not like people rappelled down from helicopters with guns drawn.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by missingrib on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @03:24PM (#22302410)
They developed USBKill right after to prevent against stuff like this. That said, I'm sure the FBI knows about that now as well and would avoid sticking USBs into computers they want to target randomly.

But, there are also other tools out there.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by nyolfen on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:56PM (#22301412)
this is true but i wouldnt count on it as evidence either way; fbi would not have nsa tools
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by ameister14 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @11:14AM (#22299577)
I mean, Paul LeRoux is associated with it and he's been mythologized already himself
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by rofo1 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:46PM (#22300554)
To be clear, "associated" means absolutely nothing at all here. Zero proof or anything close.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by eitland on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @02:37PM (#22301854)
He's not linked beyond reasonable doubt to TrueCrypt, but IIRC

- there is clear evidence linking him to some earlier cryptographic software

-and someone (the journalist who wrote the story?) tried to say that it was a precursor to TrueCrypt.

Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by jonny_eh on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:46PM (#22300552)
Have people settled on whether he's also Satoshi or not?
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by alwayseasy on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:11PM (#22300872)
It's unlikely to be him given his style of immediate profit-seeking and immense risk taking in the years that surround the creation of Bitcoin.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by lawnchair_larry on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @05:15PM (#22303538)
It’s quite obvious that he is not.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by jonny_eh on Thursday February 13, 2020 @06:59PM (#22322618)
Why? Didn't Satoshi go quiet when Paul was arrested?
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by tomc1985 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @01:00PM (#22300711)
Why is it crappy?
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by 93po on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @12:11PM (#22310570)
It was the only non-microsoft option that was accessible and easy to use and free for Windows. And MS's FDE is likely compromised and backdoored.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by jimbob45 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @10:57AM (#22299424)
But the source-available VeraCrypt still exists and is maintained.
Re:How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on c... by fredgrott on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @12:51PM (#22300621)
no read the damn project notes on the ones that forked Truecrypt its obvious why as it needed fixes and someone clone and forked it to fix it. Not every action is NSA-CIA rigged..they are not hidden bogey men(women) and canni fact be defeated with light, truth, programming, and math