Feel free to live off the grid, but please make sure you don’t leech off of those around you.
I'm fine with missing things if people don't feel like using any of the methods I have to get in touch with me. However, instead of either not bothering or using one of the communication channels we have in common, people tend to ask my partner to relay messages to me. So short of starting to use Whatsapp (which I'd really rather not do, and which requires installing a different OS on my phone - and possibly get a data subscription as well), the burden is on my partner to either tell them to contact me directly, or to relay the messages.
Any good tips for others ways of dealing with this are very welcome.
Your signal: I don't care enough about our communication to use WhatsApp, because of reasons that are obscure to 99% outside a tech community. Similarly, they don't bother to reach out to you on other communication channels, because they don't bother enough.
The important thing to understand is, from your communication partners point of view, you create a burden without reason, so they work around it in (their) most effective way.
I've been there and didn't support this or that messenger. By now I think, the only way to solve those kind of issues are i) sane laws that regulate privacy and communication security, and ii) trends that create a need for a new communication style - private, secure, and human (like, calling from time to time, find a better solution to ghosting, things like that).
I'm convinced that we need positive incentives for that, instead of creating artificial burden.
This isn't just limited to communications tools. For example, people might have dietary restrictions for non-health reasons (religion, environmental impact, etc) that others do not share or even understand. I don't mind accommodating those (to a limit) e.g. when picking a place to eat, but it is a burden placed on people around them. That's just the way it is, I guess, and I suppose all people can do is try to minimise the burden, and to be accepting of those placed upon you.
They create a burden without reason.
If it helps, you can try visualizing it as a fully connected graph that initially has equally weighted edges between all nodes. But then the weight of all edges connected to one specific node goes up by multiple factors. That node loses out much more than all the other nodes.
I personally rather observe various groups in society with very different kinds of preferences.
The cost of putting cognitive load is many people will choose not to pay it and that cost is instead borne by your partner
Would you walk through wet mud if a grass or concrete alternative path is available? That's pretty much what your contacts are doing
Not a solution for even most people unless you're really into Matrix and running your own servers though. (I bridge WhatsApp, but use a physical phone to do so)
What you call "annoying AF" was reality for many many years, and yet people were not constantly annoyed..
It's not a constant annoyance, but if anything there were more annoyances in the 90's around phones than having people call me to speak to my sibling.
It might have been a reality pre-00s ─ today if you want to play out any Jason Bourne fantasies, they will not be considered just annoying but suspicious, as your number gets intrinsically linked with somebody else's activities.
You mean the 'cost of interrupting other people while they are in the middle of living their lives' is near zero. On the other side of the coin, the cost of being constantly interrupted by beeping, buzzing, ringing, and jingling of every asshole in the county who calls/text on a moment's whim, and gets annoyed/offended when I don't instantly respond, is not zero.
Likewise, the cost of being constantly surveilled by intelligence agencies and evil corporations is definitely nowhere near zero.
I live completely off the grid. Far from giving a fuck about how offended/inconvenienced others are by my lifestyle, I purposely disconnected from all of those people. Life for me is much better now.
It's like German getting out of nuclear power generation but then buying nuclear power from Czech and France, where power plans are literally at the German border.
I think that's a toxic attitude. Picking up the phone for someone else every now and then is really not a big of a hassle. Obviously I don't know the whole situation, but in general I do think that one should be ready to do such minor favors for another human being without calling them a leech.
on edit: changed some incorrect uses of to to correct usage of too.
Normally I would not expect, given that thread of conversation, that I should have to explain that my example was not meant to be a universal condemnation of anyone not having a sim card in their phone.
In fact, only 33 years ago my parents had to call the neighbours 3 doors further to call my aunt to notify her (and my grandparents who happen to be visiting her) of my birth.
Although, I admit as someone with a speech impediment, I absolutely loath using the phone. But it's a necessity even as a software developer. But nothing as annoying as having to pick up the phone, only to hear that it was (effectively) the wrong number and they needed someone across the room...
My wife (who is younger than me, as in 16y younger) do that too and have no problem.
For me, if I do it, I sure remember, but 2 or 3 days later :-D
Google has been awful at respecting my decision though, they'll keep enabling various news notifications and the have a very different opinion on "breaking news" than I do, I think the last one was for some Hollywood awards show. If there really is some breaking news I need to be interrupted for then the government emergency SMS service should suffice.
I first read this on HN: app notifications should really be called app interruptions. It really changes how things should be viewed.
Sharing is great when you put in something material in, not just try to be bubbly person.
I have my smartphone 24/7 on DND. I only feel/hear my vibration motor if I get a call. Sometimes, this causes me to miss phone calls, but in general it works well enough. It also makes me one of these people who isn't annoying in public transport or on yoga class.
I don't think the author of that post is living "off the grid" at all.
I am surprised nobody noticed that he mentioned he uses OKCupid.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/01/grindr-and-okcupid-sel...
The implication here isn't that they're being judged for not having a phone (with a SIM card), and that they're constantly relying and leaching from others. That can be annoying, and people tend to not like annoying people?
Let's talk texts.
Compare:
1. An employee gets all of their break time eaten up by a friend who is off work and sending tens of low-effort messages for help with choosing an appropriate cafe for a double-date that night. (Saw it happen.)
2. An employee has nice, relaxing breaks. Then they meet up with a group of three that includes a friend who spends five minutes annoying the other three until someone finally decides on which cafe to visit.
Given that employee as input data, which is the preferable system? If you answer 1 then I've got a lot more questions for you.
It's too bad that texts generate so much flak that an "off the grid" person's absence doesn't register. But it's still a benefit for current SIM card holders that the "off the grid" person isn't adding flak to that broken system of communication.
Not sure it outweighs the mom calling the sister. But texts are generally such a productivity drain it is worth noting.
But I haven't imposed anything on anyone. It's society--or rather, a certain loud, vocal, and extremely selfish segment of society--which is attempting to impose something on me.
It speaks volumes about the mentality of such people that they somehow think I'm imposing on them, because they're 'forced' to think and plan ahead a little bit if/when they desire to contact me, rather than me being instantly available at their beck and call 24/7/365.
> 'they're constantly relying and leaching from others. That can be annoying, and people tend to not like annoying people?'
Exactly my reasoning for purposely disconnecting from those who always have to be joined at the hip with their digital devices 24/7/365, and who insist that I need to be also, for their convenience.
The fact that you refer to people trying to make plans with you as an imposition on you tells me that might not be the case, but I'm not in any position to judge either way.
Tons of assumptions packed into your post here, all of which are incorrect due to your own lack of perspective.
Let me put this into perspective for you.
So that you can better understand the totally warped and ridiculous mindset of antisocial, contemptible extremists like me, try this little experiment: Give up your phone for 90 days. All phones. Totally and completely. Use email and snail mail only for communication. Or even IM, if you like; you don't have to go "whole hog" like me and not even have internet at the house. Just dip your toes in the water. Use a desktop or laptop for your computing needs, and leave the toy in the drawer.
There are many ways you could go about justifying this to your shocked and horrified colleagues and family members, limited by your own imagination; the best way from a scientific standpoint (to conduct a study and learn from it) would be to example pretend to be a person like me, who has decided to do this because of very legitimate reasons concerning security, privacy, etc, perhaps leaving off the part about the unwanted intrusion of society's selfish demands on one's own personal health and well being, of course, so as not to offend anyone.
(You don't want to offend anyone, right? Neither did I.)
You could say that you're doing it as an experiment for a limited time. Whatever suits your personality and temperament, while preserving whatever modicum of social standing that you hold so dear. The point is, just do it. Step into my shoes for a time, if only briefly, just to see what it's like.
Here is what you will learn:
* Yes, there are annoyance and inconveniences involved with not having a phone. They're pretty small, actually, for the most part. By far the biggest difficulty lies in dealing with other people's bullshit.
* In some people's minds, you will immediately and instantly because the biggest asshole on the planet, a totally selfish person in their viewpoint, just because they can no longer text or call you up on a moment's notice, but instead have to email and wait (sometimes an entire day!) for a reply.
* This is even despite the fact that you actually went out of your way to make it easier for them to contact you via alternate means, knowing that it would be something of an inconvenience to them, and wanting to mitigate that as much as possible. No appreciation will be shown for your efforts.
* Further reflection on the above points will demonstrate just what a low place you must have really occupied in such people's esteem, if this rather small inconvenience to them is really enough to turn people against you. This is one of many fascinating unanticipated insights into the mind and heart of humanity which you'll glean by following the road less traveled.
* Some people will instantly understand why you are doing this. To them, no explanation is needed. In many cases you will find there are others who quietly would like to do the same, but feel afraid to do so, because of social pressure. Or sometimes they will secretly think you're a nutcase, but yet will express solidarity to appear polite, while quietly judging you. And also assuming that you don't understand that they are pretending to express solidarity while quietly judging you.
* Some never will understand. They will refuse to understand, badgering you with ten thousand questions like "What? You don't have a phone? Why don't you have a phone? How can you not have a phone? What if there's an emergency? What if [...]? How is this possible? How can you even breathe?" etc.
* In many cases people will hardly be able to hide their contempt of you, and may even go out of their way to purposely make your life difficult--as if the real reason you don't have a phone was to purposely make their life difficult.
* Such people will have this greatly exaggerated bias against you, as if you have placed this enormous unwanted burden on their shoulders by simple virtue of the fact they have to exercise a little forethought and patience when attempting to contact you for whatever reason, selfish or unselfish; which (in the case of such people) you'll find generally leans much more toward the 'selfish' end of the spectrum.
* Some of the people in question may even be your own close family members--like your mother or father. These are always the saddest revelations.
* Needless to say, any burdens that legitimately but accidentally fall on others as a consequence of your attempt to live a different, better life will be blamed entirely on you, even if they have nothing to do with you and are in fact a perfect example of just what you were trying to escape from--such as the example of the mother who can no longer call her son since he doesn't have a phone, and she Just Doesn't Understand so she just calls his girlfriend instead, and he gets the blame.
* The very fact that you "think you're better than everyone else" by living a different life than the herd will be held against you.
* One previously bad thing that's been changing, is when you are asked for your phone number at any one of these thousands of places that want it so they can datamine you, in the checkout line or wherever, and you tell them simply, "I don't have a phone", people are now more likely to assume you really do have one but just don't want to give them the number--which has less of a negative connotations than their previous (idiotic) assumption that you're just too poor to pay the bill or whatever.
Those are many of the "bad" examples of things you experience by going "off the grid." I won't even bother getting into all of the good stuff, like the peace, quiet, and contentment, improved mental and physical health, etc. All of that goes without saying, really. None of that is a surprise. It's the above that will surprise you, bother you, and change your outlook, when you see from an outside perspective just how totally selfish this society really is.
Maybe what's really going is that you made them conscious of having an enormous unwanted burden on their shoulders. And every time yet another compromise is forced on them, the weight increases. And you had the strength to shrug it off.
Like junk mail, to name another easy example. I complained about all the junk mail one time at the postal counter, and the woman replied, quote, "You call it junk mail; we call it job security."
(Which is exactly why I no longer have a mailbox, either; just a PO box that I check once in a while. I refuse to waste away my precious life dealing with such bullshit.)
Tells you everything you need to know right there about the entire society, really. The rot is everywhere. Which is why increasingly the only sane option is to Opt Out from the madness entirely.
Life is much more peaceful on this side of the fence.
I remember playing Leisure Suit Larry back in the day. I think it was episode 2 or 3, where at the end of the game the story goes that Larry has retired to his "programmer's shack" out on a lake in the wilderness, to write the next LSL game.
I remember being struck by the beauty of that scene--the idea of being out in a shack on a lake, alone in the wilderness, nothing but me and the compiler. The "escaping from the world" aspect seems to have been a large part of the allure, especially as a kid, dreaming about not having to wake up early and go to that sorry ass school in the morning. No more society and its constant demands and burdens. Just living, in peace and contentment.
Today I am blessed to also have my own "programmer's shack" on a lake out in the wilderness, with nothing but me and the compiler and time.
I'll take this life over a $500k Silly-Con Valley rat race job any day of the week. And indeed, the very reason I'm here today is because that's the choice I made, period.
People have a lot more control over their lives than they allow themselves to believe. Where they inevitably end up is a result of their choices and actions. As time goes on, more and more will see the wisdom of unplugging and dropping out of this insane society. It's no big loss. In time we'll start our own new and better society.
For most people, lending their phone won't even incur marginal costs considering the trend towards flat rates.
If you find yourself being annoyed by such situations, note that these feelings are bound to make you miserable, and are unlikely to have much of an affect on the target of your anger. I've found that it is far easier than I thought to just consciously decide not to get worked up such issues, and that it's remarkably effective at improving mood and social life.
The OP is claiming the way he uses his tech gives him a cost saving and encouraging people to follow suit, when if everyone did that then he wouldn't be able to do the things he does any more. So it's not a sustainable lifestyle, because it leeches off the idea that most people aren't doing it.
It would be quite annoying if they constantly only had $5 in their wallet and needed their friends to cover for them with a card whenever we went out. I can respect the position they're taking, but you've chosen to interact with the modern world in ways that are unexpected and more difficult in some ways. In return, I expect you to think through those obstacles and solve them yourself.
If you ask me ahead of time if I can pay for something, or use my phone, that's totally reasonable. Just going through life assuming that it's a thing isn't thoughtful or respectful of my personal limits.
I'm sure he would be perfectly fine with her not calling at all, and just speaking with her the next time he sees her, the way 95% of humans on the planet are perfectly capable of doing. But she chooses to not respect his very wise and very reasonable mode of living, and you choose to see that as being his fault somehow.
I live tens of hours away from my parents right now. Calling them is how I get/keep in touch with them. If I decided to get rid of my phone, I'd be sure to come to some sort of other solution that would be acceptable to them and not just cut them off.
The issue is he presumably knows that his parents are like this and want to stay in touch with him. If he can't convince them to use email/skype/whatever else, then that's his issue to manage. He's not entitled to push that off onto his friends just because his parents are unreasonable. Either deal with your parents unreasonable demands by having a basic burner phone, or tell all your friends to just not pick up/blacklist it.
To me, is like if you decided you were worried about the environment and started biking everywhere. I can respect that as a decision, but it doesn't mean it's not imposing on me to always be showing up to things late because you haven't adjusted to how long it takes to bike places.
Lending the phone to someone who doesn't want to carry one even knowing they will need it? Not fine. That person has little respect to others if they think they can't be bothered carrying a phone but everyone else should lend theirs when needed.
Not to mention modern phones are very personal. Our entire lives is there.
I envy those who have enough energy left to fight for a better world after their daily chores. I don't.
So I do my best to be productive, positive and kind. Throwing my phone away right now would not be a little fight. It would cause me problems at work where my boss expects me to be responsive regardless of where I am or if there's a working wifi nearby. I'd also lose business and social opportunities. Being harder to reach would make some friends eventually distance themselves just as a consequence.
I feel you. Have a good week!
In addition, we're not talking here about how to specifically deal with one person. I've had plenty of friends with annoying habits, and I have managed to mostly ignore their behavior and just live my life. What we're discussing is the more general case - is it ethical to impose this sort of thing on someone else without their agreement/consent. I can both think that my old roommates should have cleaned the kitchen more as a matter of cleanliness and fairness AND have gotten to the point where it didn't bother me that much that I had to clean for them. My ability to not be bothered by it, and to put my friendship ahead of specific annoyances doesn't excuse behavior that makes doing so harder for their selfish reasons.
"Judging people for their actions" isn't the same as shunning them or wanting them dead. Any sort of anti-social behavior that asks for things from other people is going to trigger some sort of judgement or response. Often it will just be ignoring it or helping the person out, and that's fine, but that's part of the calculus of choosing it. You've decided the social cost of asking for other peoples phones is worth the personal moral/ethical/security gains of not having one yourself. Depending on how you approach it and how much you mitigate the asks of others will determine how people judge you on it.
Need signal/whatsapp? Just get a disposable number... that everyone adds to their contact books but has to change every time you re-install because you cant get the old number back.
The world is outright hostile to not having a number. It's like not having an address. I lament this, but there aren't easy solutions to this hostility.
By relying on other people it is possible to do without many things.
However, unless you have other ways of signaling sufficient status or wealth (such as being a digital nomad living abroad in a lower income country), people you continuously rely on for essentials might start treating you with a little less respect.