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Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by RivieraKid on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:45AM (#22217395)
The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work.

The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person).

Transfering cash directly is the most efficient way of decreasing inequality, so UBI is the right approach. At this time, the amount of UBI should be below what allows a comfortable life, because it would lead to a feedback loop in which people would be increasingly demotivated to work.

And what about robots? There is a danger that automation will further exacerbate income inequality, so redistribution is a natural response, because it would increase the effective wages of low income jobs. It seems unlikely that robots will literally take our jobs, you can probably always be someone's slave (not literally) for $5 / hour.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by washadjeffmad on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:01AM (#22217514)
Demotivated to work like retirees, spouses in single income households, and people who can live off the fruits of their investments like the wealthy?

Perhaps they’d produce art, or seek out experiences and education that wouldn’t otherwise be afforded to them. Maybe they’d take on risk and start that business they’d always dreamed of if they weren’t taking of their parent with dementia or having to work fewer days to watch their newborn.

Maybe risking their and their children’s health and educations because they might not be compelled to tirelessly feed their lives into a labor machine like they were once is too simple and dehumanizing a way to think.

I’m not for UBI yet because society is still too unbalanced in favor of rent seekers, but I could see it being the next target on the agenda within the decade, assuming a Sanders presidency.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by TheOtherHobbes on Sunday February 02, 2020 @02:00PM (#22218622)
UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials.

Income inequality is a problem of massively unequal political and economic power, and of insider knowledge and class-cultural arbitrage - not a problem of income.

If - hypothetically - all the jobs required to provide food, shelter, and other basics were taken over by robots, there would be no reason at all not to provide them for free, and give everyone the political and economic freedom to do whatever they wanted.

It's a fair bet that while most people would do nothing much of interest - including most of those who are currently rent seekers - there would still be enough competitive drive to inspire a decent chunk of the population to excel in art, music, science, math, and other productive activities.

That would be real freedom as a birthright - not as the freedom from economic slavery that can only be earned by contributing to that slavery, as now, but as a true inalienable right.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by bhl on Sunday February 02, 2020 @06:32PM (#22220218)
> UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials.

I've heard this concern before, but what's the assumption that is being made? That UBI will drive more people to cities and increase demand? That landlords would simply increase rent knowing renters have a larger income? That people's long term expectations of inflation changes?

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by alibrarydweller on Monday February 03, 2020 @05:57AM (#22223090)
The term "rent seeking" as economists and the parent poster use it isn't about leases on apartments and offices per se, but rather capturing surplus- an example could be if you live in a house which requires leaves to be raked, your having more income might incentivize "big lawncare" to get laws passed saying you can only use a particular brand of rake in the city limits, one which can't be bought outright and has a monthly license fee attached.

The notion being put forward here is that the more money Joe Sixpack has, the more things will crop up to extract some.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by internet_user on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @11:45PM (#22244100)
That's been happening already across the board: medical costs, housing costs, etc. anywhere where demand is fairly inflexible.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by robotresearcher on Sunday February 02, 2020 @07:06PM (#22220402)
> That landlords would simply increase rent knowing renters have a larger income?

This one seems a serious problem. Home sales too, since sellers know people could make larger mortgage payments.

Is there a good argument for why this will not inevitably transfer much of the money to landowners?

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by enraged_camel on Sunday February 02, 2020 @07:50PM (#22220553)
>>Is there a good argument for why this will not inevitably transfer much of the money to landowners?

I regularly rent out the guest bedroom in my house. When I do so, I do not run complex formulas to figure out what a particular tenant might be able to afford. I simply look at rents for similar units in the area, and bump it up or down slightly based on the various features and amenities the room has. I don't charge a corporate executive higher rent than I charge a college student. Their ability to pay is not relevant.

You might be thinking "okay, but what if everyone's income went up in an UBI scenario?" Honestly, unless literally all the landlords in a city came together and colluded, you wouldn't see much increase, because we would have the same level of competition we have today.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by horomeme on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:37AM (#22221686)
>Honestly, unless literally all the landlords in a city came together and colluded, you wouldn't see much increase.

The market is all the collusion necessary.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by wutbrodo on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:50AM (#22221992)
> I simply look at rents for similar units in the area

? Do you think these rents are set by God or something? The fact that it's a dynamic system doesn't change the fact that the equilibrium (and thus prices) are set through supply and demand.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by mnowicki on Monday February 03, 2020 @10:37AM (#22225038)
What about this type of scenario, is this something you could see playing out:

People receive UBI, more people are able to move out and buy/rent an apartment or house, landlords are getting more applicants and apartment buildings start filling up, some landlords increase price to compensate for increased demand, average rent for an area goes up, the rest of the landlords increase their prices to match the market

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by robotresearcher on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:43AM (#22221965)
Say every landlord followed your approach, except a single one that raised the rent due to the new income.

> I simply look at rents for similar units in the area

Iterate that and the rents rise until they reach a new, higher global equilibrium.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by tonyedgecombe on Sunday February 02, 2020 @02:44PM (#22218931)
because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials.

Which is why I'd prefer to see UBH (Universal Basic Housing).

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by ChuckNorris89 on Monday February 03, 2020 @02:31AM (#22222144)
Universal Basic Housing just sounds like ghettos with extra steps.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by tsukikage on Monday February 03, 2020 @05:28AM (#22222956)
So don't build ghettos. A modest proposal: make every builder donate a proportion of the flats/houses they build to local government, but decide which ones are to be donated by random lot after building work is complete.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by ta999999171 on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:09AM (#22221819)
Cool, Judge Dredd.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by flukus on Sunday February 02, 2020 @06:00PM (#22220070)
> because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials.

Only if there is insufficient competition to keep prices down and the market is already broken, which is the case in some areas but not most. In the more notable cases like housing UBI still helps by freeing people to live anywhere instead of cities with plentiful jobs, and even that is largely an artificial problem in developed countries with birth rates below replacement levels.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by horomeme on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:34AM (#22221673)
I was worried I would read the entire thread without finding the only sound answer. Thanks for proving my worries unwarranted. UBI is a farce. Redistribution of basic commodities like housing and healthcare are the answer.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by ryandvm on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:29PM (#22219911)
> Perhaps they’d produce art, or seek out experiences and education that wouldn’t otherwise be afforded to them.

Honestly, I find this idea laughable. If the last 10 years have taught me anything, it's that people will spend every spare minute they have staring at their phones or streaming TV.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by LeoTinnitus on Sunday February 02, 2020 @08:23PM (#22220702)
I have to totalky disagree. Look at GPL, DeviantArt, Twitch, steam mods. People will labor for free for the purpose of leisure or enjoyment. While those people are in a minority in terms of population since most consume as opposed to produce with an actual skill.

I think if the culture was ingrained to gain a source of prestige based off of what they contribute for free, that would incentivize people to pursue those Nobel endeavors. But that sort of culture shift would take Star trek levels of time to get to.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by Smoosh on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:47PM (#22220017)
So, the demand for entertainment such as streaming TV increases, and provides a larger marketplace for the actual content producers.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by chopin on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:58AM (#22222832)
I could do this in my spare time yet I play piano.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by silvestrov on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:02AM (#22217522)
Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people.

Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide.

But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.

They don't feel "UBI" is like having a long vacation and a meaningful life.

budget: (notice that the mom can afford a $1000/month apartment) https://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/politik/danskpolitik/article...

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by retsibsi on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:37PM (#22221240)
> Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide.

> But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.

How would these people feel without the money, though? Presumably this group is at high risk for depression to begin with, and alleviating their material deprivation may well be doing a lot of good, even if their average life satisfaction is still not great. (This doesn't mean there's no better way, but I would be really wary of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here.)

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by jakelazaroff on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:22AM (#22217657)
I can’t read the article, so forgive me if that’s backed by research rather than just anecdata, but… is that really an issue people would have?

I would love UBI, because it would transform what I could do with my time. Instead of working 9–5 on software for a company, I could build whatever I want. There are tons of app ideas floating around in my head that I just don’t have time to build. And I could release them for free or cheap, because my survival wouldn’t depend on them being profitable.

With UBI, I would expect to see many more people building open–source software. I would expect many more going into the arts. I would expect many more doing volunteer work. There are so many fulfilling and valuable things to do that are not easily profitable!

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by ThrowawayR2 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:37AM (#22217760)
> "...is that really an issue people would have?"

Hell, yes. There are a vast number of low-education people with what the HN crowd would call "old fashioned attitudes". From https://archive.is/CCTXs#selection-1205.100-1205.363:

"'Being a man means supporting your family,' says Mr Davis. 'You’ve got to do whatever it takes so they eat, [or] you’re no man at all.' Being a man, says Mr Redden, means you 'work hard, provide for your kids, have a car and [maybe] get your own house some day.'"

What would UBI do for them? It isn't going to fulfill their emotional or spiritual needs. (What they really need is a universal jobs program, IMO.)

> "With UBI, I would expect to see many more people building open–source software. I would expect many more going into the arts. I would expect many more doing volunteer work. There are so many fulfilling and valuable things to do that are not easily profitable!"

Funny, then why aren't people on public assistance already doing all these things you imagine? As others have noted, EU nations provide benefits better than any UBI proposal likely to succeed in the US. So where is this magical wave of creativity?

Could it be (shock, horror) that the vast majority of people don't have the creativity to build things or make art and don't feel they would be fulfilled by volunteer work?

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by danaris on Sunday February 02, 2020 @12:25PM (#22218025)
I think the problem with this is that UBI is being given within the existing system of work-for-hire, rather than as part of a transition to a post-scarcity economy.

In the current system, if you want to do X, you have to prove to the people who are willing to pay you a living wage/market rate to do X that you are worth hiring to do it.

Under a (hypothetical) post-scarcity system, if you want to do X, you find a group that's working on X and say you want to spend some of your time working on it, and you do it, possibly getting trained first if you don't yet have all the skills needed. Depending on the particular work and/or the particular system that's been implemented, either your financial needs are entirely taken care of by the UBI, or you get the UBI and then you may get paid some extra to do X—but the amount you would be paid to do it would be determined by completely different factors than under today's system.

This more-or-less eliminates the gap between what people want to do with their time and what society will let them do with it...though it will still require a cultural shift away from the idea of the Rugged Individualist Man Providing For His Otherwise Helpless Woman And Children With Nothing But The Sweat Of His Brow.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by homonculus1 on Monday February 03, 2020 @10:58AM (#22225282)
"Cultural shift"?

What if men providing resources to their families is a drive that runs deeper than some kind of vestigial macho chauvinism? We already have mass depression, isolation, falling educational outcomes, suicide, and even radicalization of men who are unable to find purpose to attach themselves to in the modern economy.

Are we to gloss over the function and instincts of half the population as an attitude problem? Social engineering is way too easy inside a theoretical bubble, where expecting billions of people to fundamentally reconstruct their entire identities can be handwaved in two words. Progressivism is supposed to meet people’s social needs, not dictate them.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by danaris on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @08:41AM (#22235376)
There's a big difference between "I need my family to be provided for" and "I need to be the one to provide for my family." The former is what UBI and similar efforts would resolve, and is what is healthy to desire and need.

If it is true—and I do not for a second believe it is—that the latter is an actual biological drive in men specifically, then that's something we need to work on developing strategies to mitigate and work through in a healthy way, because it's not helpful in our modern society. Y'know, much like our panic response is not helpful in our modern society, and when someone has an overdeveloped one, we treat it as a mental illness to be treated, not a "function and instinct" that needs to be catered to.

Personally, I find the idea that men have a biological imperative to be the sole reason their families survive to be nothing more than a ludicrous extension of modern toxic masculinity, on par with "of course men will rape women, once they get aroused they can't help themselves, they have a biological imperative to propagate their genes."

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by homonculus1 on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @01:44PM (#22239356)
I take gross exception to your rape equivocation. That's the sort of intellectual mine that, much like an actual mine, destroys conversations and leaves the whole field unwalkable for decades.

Back to the claim, sexual dimorphism and sexual division of labor are such a fundamental and ubiquitous element of human physiology and society that it is a mistake to assume there is no adaptation to speak of, or that the role of the male provider is suddenly maladaptive.

It may be that we can restructure society by common agreement in a different way that continues to harness the productivity of testosterone. That is not what you are espousing. Your ideas are a form of social high modernism which assumes the sexes are interchangeable as a premise, then categorizes any deviation as toxic and unhealthy (or even on par with rape apology, which is just... you've got to be kidding).

I don't see any basis to believe this other than that it simplifies the theory and makes utopia seem within reach. But we do have evidence to believe that sexual division of labor is effective (in a word, "civilization") and we are also seeing festering male issues in the decades since we've been experimenting with the alternative premise.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by gremlinsinc on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:56AM (#22223405)
I'd love this scenario. I'd love to maybe spend some years working on bio/disease research even though I know nothing about diseases. (I'm a developer), or work on Climate Change... Imagine if we put a ton of pressure for people ot just go into science regardless of career 'outlook' just to help save the world before it's too late ? Imagine handing out free college esp. to STEM students going into climate change tech?
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by silvestrov on Sunday February 02, 2020 @12:14PM (#22217958)
It's not only low-educated people who suffer.

Highly educated people like lawyers also suffer from self-doubt and stress, e.g. thinking "there must be something wrong with me since nobody wants to hire me".

The "lawyers union" in Denmark asked 127 unemployed lawyers who recently graduated. 65% percent responded that unemployement "to a large degree" negatively affect their everyday lives. Only 3% responded that they are not affected at all. (in Danish) https://www.djoefbladet.dk/artikler/2013/8/ledighed-kan-kn-a...

So even people who are highly educated and for whom it should be easy to do a lot of fulfilling activity, still wants a job. They talk about the emotional burden, they don't talk about wanting more money.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by clarry on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:35PM (#22219253)
I think that's because it's not socially acceptable to say that you just need money. You need to say that you want a job, or you sound like a lazy loser and a freeloader. Social media is full of extreme vitriol against unemployed people, and even the people who are supposed to help you can treat you in a rather dehumanizing way. The emotional burden comes from many things, including stress, anxiety, insecurity (UBI would help there), stigma, etc.

EDIT: Also, at least here the unemployment benefits are predicated on actively seeking a job. If you actually go and admit you don't want a job, that can backfire in a situation that sucks to start with.

I was unemployed for nearly 2 years and it was a fucking nightmare. Because I had no idea what would happen to my life next week or next month. It's an unsustainable and extremely hostile situation. Can't make any long term plans, can't start any project that requires investment. The only way out of that situation is to get a job, which is everything you need to focus on, in place of all those interesting and fulfilling free-time activities one could think of doing during a period of true freedom and financial independence.

A steady, guaranteed, stable source of income would've changed it completely. You wouldn't need to deal with the stress of trying to find a way out of a terrible situation.

I don't think most pensioners, for instance, think that they've got into a fucking nightmare of a situation. Sure, some get depressed because suddenly their days aren't filled with the activity and people they're used to. But I think most pensioners are quite content as long as they are healthy, have enough money for comfort, have friends, and are free to find activities for themselves. And yes, some even get something that resembles a job. Maybe volunteer somewhere. It's still a rather different situation compared to being employed, and usually volunteers have only as much responsibility as they volunteer for, and they can pretty much quit or reduce their load any time. Around here, becoming a pensioner is something that is mostly celebrated. You can rest in ease knowing that you've earned your future and no longer need to compete in the rat race.

I can say that I enjoyed the heck out of long summer vacations and time between studies when I had zero pressure to worry about getting a job. I would FIRE if I could. There are so many things I want to do with my life, and 9-5 only gets in the way.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by mr_toad on Sunday February 02, 2020 @08:21PM (#22220694)
> Funny, then why aren't people on public assistance already doing all these things you imagine?

If you’re on a sickness benefit you’re supposed to be too sick to work. If you’re on an unemployment benefit you’re supposed to be finding a job. If you spend most of your time doing volunteer work you’ll probably lose your benefit.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by sonofhans on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:45PM (#22218539)
> ... then why aren't people on public assistance already doing all these things you imagine?

Because public assistance in the US sucks. It's designed to. It is political tool more than social policy. There's a word of difference between these two things:

1. We as a society value families and children, so stay home and take care of yours, and we'll make sure you have enough resources to meet your needs. 2. Better get a job soon, parasite, your benefits expire next month.

In which of those situations do you feel safe, or free to create? Or to nurture, itself the greatest act of creativity? Is it not enough labor for society to raise a family? Must every mother also constantly be generating profits for someone else?

This is not my direct experience -- I consider myself fortunate -- but I've seen plenty of it. Getting public assistance is humiliating, time-consuming, and uncertain.

Humiliating - asking for public assistance immediately labels you as a problem and a failure, even for many of those tasked with providing assistance.

There are limited resources (artificially limited, because of course we can always afford weapons programs and tax breaks for owners of capital and real estate). The public assistance system is non-trivially optimized to weed out people who don't need it, in order to conserve these resources, and this process can be fraught and combative. "Prove to me that you're a failure" is the message and the context.

Time-consuming - it takes forever. People on public assistance are often assumed to have no jobs. They have to go (usually slowly, on mass transit if they're lucky) from one government office to another, making and keeping appointments weeks or months ahead. They have to do this often while they live in car that provides shelter, but not transportation, since they can't afford gas.

Uncertain - a large portion of the US political apparatus has for decades spent vast energy and resources in reducing public assistance, and in demonizing those who use it ("welfare mothers"). As we speak the US administration is pushing through further reductions, designed (they say) to "push people from welfare to work."

No surprise that people in that context don't feel free or safe enough to create.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by lopmotr on Sunday February 02, 2020 @12:34PM (#22218085)
This is a really popular opinion among programmers. I used to have that too. I've met people with that. But I don't think it's true. Somehow the people who believe it all happen to also have jobs and not enough time for hobbies, or are retired professionals, and even then only a few. When I've had periods without work, my motivation went with it. Doing things seems to make you want to do more things. Part of it might be that if you have all the time you need, then you have to stop fantasizing and actually do it, which is of course less fun and more tedious than the fantasy, so what's the point if the reward of good feelings diminishes the more you do? But there's also something about being busy making you more busy.

Some people can work productively on their hobbies without a job kicking them in the pants every morning. But those people are so motivated, they're going to be doing real jobs anyway!

I live in a country with generous social welfare. Nobody is really too poor to pursue hobbies while unemployed. But they don't seem to be doing it. They do drugs instead. They probably feel useless and bad about life. Having a free house and food and healthcare doesn't help. We have a high suicide rate. Uselessness is an awful thing for humans.

Where is all the long term unemployed people's open source software and apps and arts? There's no shortage of unemployed people and those hobbies cost almost zero money, just time. So why aren't we already flooded with them? Or are we?

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by mnowicki on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:36AM (#22225775)
I'd argue that under the current system, the people who are unemployed are those who tend to be less motivated in general.

I'm not sure about your specific country though, I'd guess it's true in all countries(the majority of unemployed people aren't the kinds of people who write software in their free time) but I'm not sure and I'm interested in what you think. I also wonder, if UBI were implemented would it still be true that the motivated, creative people would be the ones who continue to work anyway? I think a larger portion of unmotivated people would drop their jobs and live off of UBI, but there would still be a sizeable portion of people leaving their jobs to pursue creative projects. I myself would definitely quit and start working on my game full time, I did it before without any kind of financial safety net and made some progress, but of course had to go back to work before getting close enough to completion. Having UBI would be life-changing for me

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by bumby on Sunday February 02, 2020 @07:04PM (#22220394)
>Uselessness is an awful thing for humans.

One of the most lingering takeaways from Sebastian Junger’s book “Tribe” for me is how being a valued member of ones society is necessary for mental health. I worry that without addressing those other aspects of mental health, UBI can easily funnel into societal troubles like substance abuse as opposed to creative efforts

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by DataWorker on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:44PM (#22218534)
But your rent will increase, probably a lot.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by Ididntdothis on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:17AM (#22217625)
They may feel less depressed if there wasn’t a stigma associated with this. On the other hand a lot of people wouldn’t be working if there wasn’t societal pressure on them.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by gremlinsinc on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:54AM (#22223392)
Why does everybody need to work? Less workers ALSO drives up pay because supply/demand. It also could propel the U.S. to a 30 hour work week or even 25 which would be more in tune with our ancestors (Middle Ages averaged 18 hour weeks).
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by tonyedgecombe on Sunday February 02, 2020 @02:48PM (#22218962)
Yes, plenty of people retire without loosing all sense of self worth.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by fegu on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:16PM (#22227138)
The reason for this is maybe captured by the adage "better a have-been than a never-will-be"
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by ablekh on Sunday February 02, 2020 @08:51PM (#22220811)
I agree with you that purpose in life is very important. However, your assumption above about Denmark is not supported by The World Happiness Report (https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2019): both in 2019 and 2018, Denmark was at the very top (the 2nd place, after Finland). One could argue that many, if not the most, people, not having to work or having to work less at a normal job, might very well express themselves (and contribute significant societal value) by participating in entrepreneurship, innovation, part-time employment, creative arts & crafts, caring for their kids and/or senior family members, volunteering and much more.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by 8bitsrule on Sunday February 02, 2020 @04:23PM (#22219529)
>Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life

Lots of people know what they'd like to do with their lives which would be important for (some) 'other people'. But often, those pursuits are not likely to be highly profitable soon ... if ever. (Many, many famous creatives never got to enjoy their fame.)

Most of them will never be able to afford to (happily, creatively, eagerly) pursue what they'd prefer. Not when they must invest (unhappily, dully, compulsively) most of their energies keeping body-and-soul-together while helping others fulfill their dreams.

We can do better.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by Mirioron on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:07PM (#22219784)
>Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month.

Is this alimony/child support? And if it isn't, does alimony and child support not exist in Denmark?

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by armitron on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:17AM (#22217627)
Serious citation(s) needed rather than personal conjecture / tabloid posts.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by mdorazio on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:53AM (#22217452)
To your last statement, most proponents of UBI emphasize the "Basic" part of it. As in, it's meant to provide a subsistence level of income that a person could survive on, but not in comfort. I'm personally in favor of that level explicitly not being location-specific so that if you want to live solely on UBI, you have to live in a low cost of living area to do so.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by iso947 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:00AM (#22217508)
So those in cheap areas with no jobs can never move to the areas with jobs?
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by paulgb on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:12AM (#22217590)
I don't think it's a static system. Guaranteeing an income to everyone in those cheap areas could also have the effect of creating jobs in those areas because people would have money to spend.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by iso947 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:40AM (#22217772)
They could. Or those areas could dissolve in a spiral of depression and alcoholism
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by tonyedgecombe on Sunday February 02, 2020 @02:45PM (#22218939)
That's happening right now, to a large extent because anybody with any get up and go has got up and gone.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by manigandham on Sunday February 02, 2020 @06:39PM (#22220256)
That assumes these people are incapable of ever being productive. That's a different issue then just missing the economic opportunities to allow the communities to grow.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by mdorazio on Sunday February 02, 2020 @12:00PM (#22217886)
I'm not sure how you got that from what I said. There's nothing preventing people from moving out of those areas and getting jobs elsewhere. In fact, there would be a pretty strong incentive to hire those people because they would likely be willing to work for less than incumbent locals, which is pretty much the system we already have in place for many kinds of labor (not to mention outsourcing to cheap labor areas in the US that happens today). Additionally, freeing people in cheap areas from having to work shit jobs just to survive has the large upside of freeing those people to work on things they either care about or that have better economic potential than barely making rent.

My point is: UBI should only enable people to subsist on government income if they are willing to live in cheap areas with not-so-comfortable living conditions. Some people will jump at this chance, and that's fine. Many other people will decide they want to live in more desirable locations or increase their standard of living and will need to supplement UBI with other income accordingly. If we try to make UBI location-specific it opens up all kinds of arbitrage opportunities and weird incentives that I don't think most people want.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by ThrowawayR2 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @12:19PM (#22217990)
> "There's nothing preventing people from moving out of those areas and getting jobs elsewhere"

How about family ties? How about ties to their friends and community? These are human beings you are talking about, not robots. At a time when societal problems relating to atomization are increasingly evident (e.g. https://psmag.com/social-justice/americans-are-staying-as-fa...), we hardly need to encourage more of it.

> "UBI should only enable people to subsist on government income if they are willing to live in cheap areas with not-so-comfortable living conditions."

Oooh, yes. We could also give these cheap areas with not-so-comfortable living conditions some snazzy label like, say, "ghetto", "favela" or "slum". /s

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by dang on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:15PM (#22219132)
Can you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? It's destructive of the curious conversation we're trying to have here.

All your substantive points can be expressed in the curious style instead. Just be thoughtful, respectful, and open rather than snarky, indignant, and confrontational.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by tromp on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:14AM (#22217606)
They can apply to jobs elsewhere and move closer when hired.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by true_religion on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:33AM (#22217727)
Right now those in cheap areas get 0 dollars. Getting 15k per year would be a vast improvement in terms of government sponsorship.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by Ididntdothis on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:18AM (#22217629)
Sounds a little like the Indian reservations.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by meddlepal on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:55AM (#22217465)
All the current proposals for UBI seem to be talking about relatively modest anounts of income... between 10-15K a year... that's not going to go very far unless the cost of rent, essentials, and services drops dramatically.

The reality is if we end up with a large amount of people that are not working then our economy is going to be totally hosed because it runs on consumption. If people don't have the money to consume then it just stops functioning.

Giving people free money is like putting a bunch of taped together printer paper over a hole in the wall and calling it "fixed".

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by marcosdumay on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:11AM (#22217583)
When you automate production, prices go down. That's something that can be verified empirically, and hardly anybody will disagree. But when you automate the entire economy, prices should go down towards zero nearly everywhere¹ - that's because when capital freely creates capital, all restrictions on production and competition become meaningless.

When you automate the entire economy, salaries also go down toward zero. That's even part of what allows prices to go down.

So, did workers become richer or poorer on the process? It's a 0/0 situation, and the answer to that question will depend entirely on the path both curves take into 0. But UBI makes that all irrelevant by adding a minimum bound on the numerator. For the purpose of fighting the problems of automation any reasonable amount will do, it doesn't matter that it looks too low today.

But of course, there are other goals that one can reach by UBI, and none of the above apply to those ones.

1 - There are obvious exceptions, some things are truly limited, and some things are limited by the government, culture, or other such forces. The cost of those are the real limit that will say whether the UBI value is too low, not today's cost of living.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by naravara on Sunday February 02, 2020 @06:51PM (#22220325)
> that's because when capital freely creates capital, all restrictions on production and competition become meaningless.

Not at all. There are still plenty of limited factors in the production function. The capital itself isn’t unlimited, so you need to price in opportunity costs for using it. Much of the capital needs to support people providing services, so you’re still limited by the labor force for doing things that people prefer having humans do, like knowledge work or personal services.

And then you have to contend with the fact that resources are finite and capacity to extract them is too. We’re a very long way away from automated labor being so effective and so ubiquitous that it fully realizes all the benefits you’re talking about.

In the foreseeable future, it’ll probably be rather unpleasant as shitty robots replace competent humans, meaning the quality of services and products we get are bad but the good versions are prohibitively expensive. And the jobs making things start going away so nobody has the money income to get quality versions of things.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by sykick on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:52AM (#22217842)
Do you mean that production costs (prices) go down with automation or that the selling price to consumers goes down? If you meant the latter this is wrong. The selling price depends on the pricing power that the producer has. Consider for example monopolistic pricing power, cartel pricing power, and regulatory capture.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by beerandt on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:44PM (#22220011)
Also, for marginal prices to approach 0, you need a true commodity.

Even if this happens for most other needs / products, housing isn't a commodity, and I expect won't ever be. It will generally be demand driven in terms of relative housing costs, and if you're of the mindset that inequality in and of itself is the problem, the lowest tier housing will never be enough, no matter how sufficient.

Which will just lead to a larger part of newly disposable income being spent on housing.

We already know people pay based on what they can afford.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by DennisP on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:04AM (#22217541)
On the one hand you're saying 15K/yr isn't enough to live on, and on the other you're worried it will prompt people to quit their jobs.

Unemployment isn't our major problem right now. The problem is that the jobs available for many people pay very little. Back when I made $18K/year, that extra 10-15K/mo would have been enormously helpful. I certainly wouldn't have stopped working; I would have paid down my credit cards and had an easier time training myself to write software.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by meddlepal on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:06AM (#22217548)
I think you misunderstood... I don't think it will cause people to quit their jobs. I didn't say that in my post. I assume UBI goes hand in hand with automation straight up eliminating jobs. There are no jobs for people.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by DennisP on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:21AM (#22217651)
That will probably happen eventually but at that point, with UBI in place, we could increase the level to something people can live on. If, say, we get to a point where 90% of people can't find jobs, we really won't have a choice. Essentially we'll need to give the general population a share in the productivity of the robots.

In the meantime, with most people having at least low-paying jobs, we can start with something more modest.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by dasil003 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:49PM (#22218561)
How does it go hand-in-hand? UBI comes from the government, automation comes from businesses. No business is holding back automation waiting for UBI to be implemented.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by stouset on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:59AM (#22217497)
Are you kidding? Median household income in the US is ~$60,000/yr. $10,000/yr/household would be enormous to over half the population.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by skybrian on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:40AM (#22217773)
That depends on where the higher taxes kick in. For a lot of people it would be getting some of your own money back, like a tax refund. This makes UBI seem both much more expensive and a much higher benefit than it actually is.

For the combination of higher taxes and UBI you need to look at how the net effects vary across the population. This isn't easy to do without understanding the taxes, and those tend not to be emphasized. (Yang's proposal has a big hole in it; the taxes aren't enough and he relies on economic growth to make up for it, which is a common dodge many politicians use for big proposals. Not that economic growth can't happen but it's not that predictable for something that hasn't been tried. You don't know when the next recession will be.)

In a zero-sum redistribution scheme intended to reduce inequality, if you're of average or high income you might not directly benefit at all, but that's no reason not to support it. You buy fire insurance for the worst case, not because you plan to make money at it in the average case. You get security from it that's not shown in the estimated average payoff.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by meddlepal on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:04AM (#22217535)
If nobody has a job because they've all been automated away and you're just getting 10K/yr from the Government then your median income is.... 10K/yr not 60K + 10K.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by damon_c on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:12AM (#22217587)
His point is that given that half of the population makes less than $60k/year, $10k/year would be a 16% or more income boost for those people.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by ebg13 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:29AM (#22217705)
The statement was about the people who are no longer earning other income because their labor is not needed.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by Mirioron on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:10PM (#22219799)
When people say "household" in these cases how many (adults) is it? 1? 2? More?
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by caconym_ on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:20AM (#22217637)
The consumer products and services economy (and its enablers in government) is what happens when basic production gets way more efficient and the elite needs a new way to trap the underclasses in wage slavery and keep all the profits for themselves.

It's unsustainable nonsense, and incompatible with any sort of long-term stable future. The economic battery whose poles are the first-world consumer and the third-world sweatshop worker will run down eventually, and it's long past time to start thinking about how we'll adapt when that happens.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by throwaway2048 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:56AM (#22217471)
"giving people free money" is how the macro-economy has functioned for a long time now, except the people are banks.

I fail to see the major disaster if it becomes somebody else instead.

E: to the downvoters, look up how money gets "printed" in the USA

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by m0zg on Sunday February 02, 2020 @06:53PM (#22220334)
UBI is the typical "utopia" style thinking that's been the cause of most problems in the history of the world. The reason why this is problematic is because when you promise an utopia, the ends will justify _any_ means, including the destruction of the very economic system with which the United States has reached unprecedented levels of economic development and prosperity.

_If_ the world saw a significant increase in the amount of automation in the foreseeable future, which is by no means certain at all, a less "utopian" solution would be shorter work weeks, and more guaranteed days off IMO. That would create more jobs than there are people and lead to the increase of the minimum wage through market mechanisms. It has to be coupled with Trump-style protectionist trade policy to be viable, however.

Being idle is not a healthy way to live. Being (much) less busy while still being able to support yourself is.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by AndrewKemendo on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:37AM (#22217759)
I'd make a slight nitpick that that the purpose of UBI is to decouple work from the ability to have enough money to live on.

The "robots will take our jobs" argument is just one of the arguments for why we should do this decoupling, among many good arguments, but is the easiest to swallow.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by dragonwriter on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:38AM (#22221690)
> The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer.

The main problem UBI is solving is expensive duplication of function between status quo means tested social safety net programs and the tax system. A secondary problem that it can solve if benefits are tied to revenues and the right dedicated revenue stream is chosen has to do with calibration of benefits in status quo safety net programs.

> At this time, the amount of UBI should be below what allows a comfortable life, because it would lead to a feedback loop in which people would be increasingly demotivated to work.

As long as you don't automatically tie UBI to inflation this is self limiting since excessive demotivation causes critical labor shortages driving both wages and final goods prices up which (1) lowers the quality of life which can be maintained on UBI so it isn't as comfortable as the nominal benefit would seem to provide, and (2) raises the marginal benefit from chosing to work, both of which serve to negate demotivation.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by davrosthedalek on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:49AM (#22224067)
Yeah, but there is always the next election, and raising UBI would be such an easy way to buy votes.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by dragonwriter on Monday February 03, 2020 @09:26AM (#22224360)
> raising UBI would be such an easy way to buy votes.

No easier than general tax cuts—or implementing a UBI—are now.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by thomasfl on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:54AM (#22217462)
Good points! People would much more prefer to live in a society with more equality.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by naravara on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:43PM (#22218528)
> And what about robots? There is a danger that automation will further exacerbate income inequality, so redistribution is a natural response, because it would increase the effective wages of low income jobs

Why does it make more sense to redistribute the outputs of the robots rather than redistributing the ownership of the robots so that everyone gets and equal share of the output?

The latter approach addresses the root cause of inequality (unequal access to resources) rather than trying to put a bandaid over the wound by constantly having to siphon the money back.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by basch on Sunday February 02, 2020 @12:00PM (#22217887)
>Transfering cash directly is the most efficient way of decreasing inequality

Is there any evidence for this? Is there evidence the money won't go right back into the lottery, consumption of unhealthy food, other vices, or right back into increased rent? What percentage of people will turn around and commit to an unnecessary more expensive car payment?

If you hand people cash, but don't correct a lack of financial knowledge, health knowledge, and overcoming marketing, why do you think it will be spent wisely? Aren't lottery windfalls exact evidence of the opposite?

At at an extreme minimum UBI should come with a budgeting framework. At a more extreme level it may be better as food stamps, health care, and retirement funding. Remember, the Freedom Dividend is instead of other, more directly allocated forms of social support. For those on SNAP and other cash equivalent programs, it's less than $1000 in net benefit, which makes it more net increase in welfare for the middle class than the poorest. A person who currently gets $600 in welfare will be able to upgrade to $1000, gaining $400, but somebody who currently qualifies for nothing gets $1000 more. So sure, the poorest are getting slightly more, but is it really actually tackling inequality, for the poorest to have the smallest net gain in the program?

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by david38 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @12:22PM (#22218010)
It doesn’t even have to go to vices.

Suppose 50% of the population is on UBI. Those 50% all need housing. What do you think the probability of the market generating optimal housing is? I’m guessing close to zero.

Planned housing can do far better.

The same with food. Let’s assume part of UBI is given as food stamps and only certain items qualify for use of food stamps. Combine this with required education (class you must attend to get UBI) and the quality of food consumed can increase significantly, helping to lower obesity and all the related problems.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by basch on Sunday February 02, 2020 @12:30PM (#22218058)
Plus with some foods, like leafy greens, the "food stamp" could be unlimited consumption. Instead of giving people $300/m for food, just say: from this day forward all spinach, broccoli, Brussel sprouts, peas, beans are fully covered. Eat to your hearts content. A reverse sin tax. Subsidize things more the healthier they are.

I'm obviously cynical about regulatory capture and dairy, livestock, etc industries lobbying to get their products certified as healthier than they are. With pizza being a vegetable and all now.

I hate the argument that the market will correct with low income housing. The presence of housing alone isn't the problem, it's the desirability of the location and access to infrastructure like groceries and hospitals. Low income housing thrown on the edge of a city causes ghettos. Creating a livable are requires some level of more complex urban planning.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by duhejsusjdkd on Sunday February 02, 2020 @07:39PM (#22220522)
>The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work.

This is the prevailing view among technologists, a group that includes large swathes of romantic people who view themselves as something akin to wizards. Meanwhile, mainstream economics just sees a lot of business as usual.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by nightski on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:50AM (#22217424)
I find it hard to believe that it would be effective at reducing inequality. It would make the lives of the poor better for sure, but it will not reduce inequality. When Jeff Bezos' net worth can swing $9B in a day as it did this past Friday, giving the poor enough money to purchase food and bare essentials isn't going to make much of a dent in their net worth. I'm not saying it won't help them out, just that it really won't tip the scales as far as inequality is concerned. It's a more fundamental issue with how the current state of capitalism is structured in the U.S.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by sokoloff on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:53AM (#22217449)
In what way will the direct transfer of money from people who have more to people who have less not be effective at reducing economic inequality?
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by nightski on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:58AM (#22217488)
Because of how they utilize that money. The poor will spend it, because they need to. The rich invest their money since they do not need it all. Those investments are continuing to grow. Even if you transfer some of that money to the poor, they are spending it where? At Amazon etc...
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by developerdylan on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:06AM (#22217552)
Money being spent causes the economy to grow. How is that a bad thing? The investments of rich people often never see the consumer economy.

It doesn't matter how they utilize it, UBI is still reducing inequality. You are allowing families to purchase things they wouldn't have had the money for otherwise. Quality of life purchases that the well-off take for granted.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by nightski on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:55AM (#22217855)
We need to rethink reward structures in this country. The fact that an investor can put up some capital and then gain "dividends" for as long as a company exists is ludicrous to me. They aren't actively doing anything to earn those dividends. It's simply a scheme to reward those with capital and assets.

Meanwhile, the employees who work hard to contribute to GDP and grow the company see a fixed salary. They do not see those dividends for the rest of their lives, instead when they leave a company it's over. Why? Why don't employees build up dividend streams from the companies they helped build? Why do Amazon employees get paid minimum wage and are denied bathroom breaks when Bezos' net worth can swing $9B in a single day? Why aren't all employees, from Janitor to CEO receiving dividends from the success of the company?

It all seems ridiculous to me. We need to encourage people to work hard and innovate, not sit on piles of capital and assets.

I'm someone who invests heavily and takes advantage of the system. But I see the flaws and it really bothers me.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by sokoloff on Sunday February 02, 2020 @12:04PM (#22217905)
> The fact that an investor can put up some capital and then gain "dividends" for as long as a company exists is ludicrous to me.

This (and other forms of return) is the motivation for the investor to put up the initial capital.

Do you have an alternative proposal to handle the common case where someone who wants to work hard and innovate needs capital to do so?

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by nightski on Sunday February 02, 2020 @12:31PM (#22218064)
My proposal would simply be to make it a legal obligation for all companies to provide ownership in the company proportional to salary each year they are employed. Not only that, it's a special type of stock which is paid dividends on profits before external shareholders. This stock should have exclusive premium benefits over any other stock. A lot of thought would need to be put into how to structure this so it could not be gamed.

External shareholders could still see a return. But I think the days of seeing massive returns on capital need to be over. It should be a fight just to beat inflation imho.

To be honest though I'm still thinking about this a lot and don't have an exact answer. So this idea is in flux. That doesn't mean it's not a problem though.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by ac29 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:34PM (#22218475)
Employees are welcome to use a portion of their salary to purchase a stake in the companies they work for already. Mandating that their employer do that on their behalf (thus decreasing their cash salaries) probably wouldn't go over too well.

If fact, its generally considered a poor idea to own shares in the company you work for - if the company takes a downturn, not only do your shares lose value, you're probably also out of a job.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by justanotherc on Sunday February 02, 2020 @02:35PM (#22218859)
> The investments of rich people often never see the consumer economy.

That's not true at all. Investments from the rich contribute greatly to the economy -- otherwise they would not be investments. Let's say that I had a billion dollars, and all I did was stick it into a savings account. The bank uses that to fund mortgages, LoCs, provide business loans, etc. Those all have a direct effect on the economy.

More likely the rich are investing in a combination of VC, real estate, and the stock market. Those are ALL job creators.

Really the only thing you can do with money that DOESN'T contribute to economic growth is bury it in the ground or spend it overseas.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by nybble41 on Monday February 03, 2020 @02:14PM (#22227809)
> Money being spent causes the economy to grow.

Money spent well causes the economy to grow. Mindlessly spending money on things that aren't worth their cost is simply waste, and causes the economy to shrink.

In economics it is generally assumed that money wouldn't be spent if the transaction wasn't expected to generate a net benefit for the spender. If you make spending money a goal in its own right, however, then that is no longer true, and spending can result in a net loss instead.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by DennisP on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:07AM (#22217561)
The money has to come from somewhere. Assuming we're not completely stupid about it, the rich will pay more in new taxes than they'll get back from UBI.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by pinkfoot on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:13AM (#22217595)
> the rich will pay more in new taxes than they'll get back from UBI.

Except the fortunate rich who own the housing that the UBI beneficiaries will pay for.

I can see UBI making a few people very, very, wealthy.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by sokoloff on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:29AM (#22217706)
So what? If those few people provide services to a great number of people who freely choose to spend their (now increased) income on housing, those people have improved the lot of a large number of people and have earned that wealth (upon which they'll be taxed).

Indeed, if UBI becomes a significant possibility (but before it's a certainty), I think that buying low-end rental properties would be a good idea as I'd expect UBI to result in a net increase in household formation. This is literally giving people freedom and agency with which to live their lives in the way they choose.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by pinkfoot on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:34AM (#22217737)
So what?

My guess is the now-incredibly-rich rentiers (with guaranteed income) will start lobbying the government for concessions (e.g. restriction on new housing, tax-breaks) that further distort the very inequality UBI is trying to solve.

No one loves UBI and its noble objectives more than I: but I'm worried about this inherent failure mode.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by sokoloff on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:42AM (#22217788)
What's the failure mode? That broad swaths of society get provided a fundamental service (shelter) in a way that is profitable to the people most efficiently and effectively providing that service?

I think when people approach this problem as "how do we best punish the rich?" rather than "how do we best help the poor?", it's very easy to get stuck spinning in circles.

(IMO) No one should care that there are very rich people. We should instead care that there are not very poor people.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by claudeganon on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:49PM (#22218562)
The failure mode is that rentiers and middlemen will eat up all of the UBI income, leaving most people’s material standard unchanged. Given the state of healthcare and housing in the US, this doesn’t seem an improbable outcome.

I’m sure, by contrast, you could do UBI in a country with robust state housing and healthcare programs, like for example Austria, and avoid these concerns.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by erik_seaberg on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:52AM (#22221750)
Landlords need to compete for tenants. High rents are only tenable in hot employment markets with bad policies imposing shortages. Everywhere else, high rents lead to more construction which leads to lower rents, and the landlord who refuses the going rate sees his units go empty.
Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by claudeganon on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:48AM (#22224062)
Ok, show me the real world place in the US where this actually holds true. This hypothetical gets touted around, but I’ve never seen it play out this way anywhere I’ve lived.

For example, I currently live in a second-tier Midwestern city in the midst of a housing crisis. Wages aren’t great relative to their respective industries, but rents and home prices are still skyrocketing. There’s no influx of new construction outside of the luxury sector in a few neighborhoods, a lot of which sits empty. Meanwhile, existing landlords just collect ever larger checks from their properties without meaningful continued investment.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by erik_seaberg on Monday February 03, 2020 @03:55PM (#22228976)
Are developers complaining about not getting permits to build more? That's the usual failure mode in cities.

Median rent in Toledo, OH is $550/mo. With a median household income of $33,687, renters clearly could pay more, but there's no shortage letting landlords demand more.

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by pinkfoot on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:47AM (#22217810)
> in a way that is profitable to the people most efficiently and effectively providing that service?

There is one of your assumptions.

It is more likey be captured by connected rentiers who exclude the more efficient.

IMO

Re:What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income? by mdorazio on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:55AM (#22217466)
UBI generally needs to be funded by increased taxes, either on wealth, capital, value-added, or income primarily from people who can afford to pay them. As such, it's a wealth transfer that is reducing inequality to a degree, not a magic handout to the poor that comes from thin air.