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Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by NeedMoreTea on Friday January 24, 2020 @07:26AM (#22137458)
UK govt should be refusing all US extradition requests, and suspending all trials until it is accepted Sacoolas be extradited to the UK.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by ComputerGuru on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:26AM (#22138514)
Why would the USA extradite Sacoolas when they’re the ones that helped her flee the UK in the first place?

They flew her out on a USAF plane: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Harry_Dunn

We do get mad when Saudi does the same thing, though.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by shadowgovt on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:52AM (#22139262)
In this case, "because they want Assange." If one country refuses to play ball in extradition cooperation, another can exercise their own national authority to compel them with tit-for-tat. Another nation is one of the few institutions powerful enough to do so.

It's one of the few advantages of having multiple independent and equally-accountable-in-the-law countries.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by orf on Friday January 24, 2020 @07:58AM (#22137710)
I came to comment exactly the same thing. Someone who murdered a UK citizen then fled justice has been refused extradition by the USA, but the UK is supposed to extradite Assange?

Come on.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by umanwizard on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:45AM (#22138129)
Nobody is accused of mudering anyone. Recklessly but accidentally causing someone else's death is not "murder", at least in common-law jurisdictions.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by ur-whale on Friday January 24, 2020 @07:59AM (#22137724)
You're assuming the UK government has an actual choice in the matter. I don't think they do.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by bilekas on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:02AM (#22137747)
Why wouldn't they exactly ?
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by belval on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:06AM (#22137770)
The parent is probably referring to Brexit, soon the UK will need to make a new trade deal with the US. Until that's done I doubt that we will see them say "no" to the US very often.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by threeseed on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:12AM (#22137823)
UK desperately needs a trade deal with the US. In order for them to have regulatory divergence from the EU there will have to leave on WTO terms. Without US opening up as a market UK will struggle to avoid a long term economic recession.

And as we know Trump doesn't look at trade in isolation. He looks at the overall relationship like a child would i.e. "are they doing what I want or not".

So there is zero chance UK will do anything this year that isn't to Trump's liking.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by thu2111 on Saturday January 25, 2020 @01:00PM (#22147539)
No it doesn't. The UK has never had a trade deal with the US before and is doing fine. Lots of countries don't have trade deals with the US or the EU and also do fine.

Please don't hype this up. Trade deals aren't that powerful.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by bilekas on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:33AM (#22138011)
I'm curious what the UK could provide the US that would be much benefit for the US..

Tea ?

The NHS might be on the table in the form of medicinal licencing within the UK or something, but I'm not sure what you mean..

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by adventured on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:12AM (#22138884)
> I'm curious what the UK could provide the US that would be much benefit for the US.

Well the US imported $67 billion worth of goods alone from the UK in 2019. One of the six or seven highest figures among US trade partners; slightly higher than France.

US services imports from the UK are typically around $40 to $50 billion.

So, $110 +/- billion in total imports from the UK. A considerable sum (more so for them of course).

The UK is also the largest single foreign investor into the US, representing 15% of all foreign direct investment. As individual countries go, the US is the largest importer of UK goods and services.

They're the fourth largest export market for the US. It's a good economic relationship to maintain, clearly.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by bilekas on Friday January 24, 2020 @02:10PM (#22141427)
Nice, thats really news to me. Every days's a schoolday. Should have done some research myself !
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by chinesempire on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:09AM (#22138355)
Assuming is always the worst of the decisions.

https://www.uschamber.com/international/europe/us-uk-busines...

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by hatenberg on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:07AM (#22138336)
Poodles don't get to disobey their masters
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by stjohnswarts on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:54AM (#22140007)
I don't think the UK government would do that with anything short of a death penalty possibility and that's not on the table in any way with this trial. They won't risk their extradition treaty with the USA over him.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by caymanjim on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:57AM (#22138254)
Yeah, instead of working through the issue like civilized adults, let's throw a tantrum. That always makes things better.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by saiya-jin on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:29AM (#22138539)
You can't work through issues like an adult if the other side is represented by likes of Trump.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by rjsw on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:17AM (#22138932)
I have seen a suggestion that UK diplomats in the US should start driving on the left.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by save_ferris on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:21AM (#22138972)
How does risking the lives of innocent people in any way solve this problem?
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by mytailorisrich on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:00AM (#22137732)
The US, like other countries, do not want to set 'bad' precedents on diplomatic immunity. Afaik she had diplomatic immunity and despite the speeches on both sides the US will never extradite her because of the precedent that would set.

In addition, in her case I suspect they also want to avoid any disclosure of the activities of her husband.

The point actually also (or especially) applies in the UK: If she did have diplomatic immunity then what is the basis to prosecute (or even just sue) her in the UK?

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by NeedMoreTea on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:29AM (#22137958)
Both the Foreign Office and the US State Department appeared to accept that she no longer had diplomatic immunity, and she wasn't a registered diplomat anyway -- she was the Intelligence officer's wife. Or at least that's what the Foreign Secretary was claiming at the tail end of last year. The surprise is either of them getting immunity for an airbase intelligence role outside London in the first place. I've seen several reports questioning whether the immunity was valid at all.

But having returned to the USA there is no longer any immunity. A crime is still there to be investigated and prosecuted, an extradition could proceed.

Additionally US-UK extradition agreements both under Thatcher and later under Blair have been notable for their imbalance, but that seems rather academic here.

A balanced discussion of the issues underlying: https://www.diplomacy.edu/blog/sacoolas-affair-diplomatic-im...

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by mytailorisrich on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:37AM (#22138052)
They said that diplomatic immunity was no longer relevant. Which was a way to tell us that it did not matter anymore because she was in the US and the US would not extradite her.

> But having returned to the USA there is no longer any immunity. An extradition could proceed.

They are claiming that for political reasons. That way it is up to the US to refuse extradition, which they obviously and predictably have, and be the 'bad guys'.

The reality is that both governments knew full well from the start that nothing would happen to her the instant she left the UK. The reality is not popular with British public opinion so they are posturing.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by secfirstmd on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:50AM (#22138188)
"airbase intelligence role outside London"

There are lots of US bases outside London that conduct US intelligence gathering - e.g RAF Menwith Hill.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by NeedMoreTea on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:18AM (#22138428)
Which don't have everyone running on diplomatic plates, or actual diplomats.

For a diplomatic cover, usually something for missions in unfriendly and hostile states, (shades of Cold War le Carré here) it would be for staff at the embassy -- which is in London. So the airbase would have to be considered a branch or part of the London embassy under the Vienna Convention. Yet Menwith Hill and Croughton etc are supposedly RAF bases militarily shared under NATO deals.

Hence all the controversy currently coming out of the woodwork, and numerous articles quoting QCs and ministers disputing the validity at all, or considering it abuse of Vienna, including the exploration piece I linked above. IANAL. :)

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by seanhunter on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:29AM (#22137971)
Firstly she was not a diplomat so it seems difficult to claim diplomatic immunity.

Secondly, the US have already established a precedent that seems very relevant to this where they claimed that a foreign national did not have diplomatic immunity relating to a much less serious traffic offense https://autos.yahoo.com/owner-of-beverly-hills-laferrari-doe...

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by LanceH on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:51AM (#22139248)
Diplomatic immunity typically covers families. The point of immunity is that a diplomat (or their family or staff) can't be arrested and threatened with the law in order to influence the diplomatic process.

Thus it is really a matter of whether her husband was legitimately working as someone with immunity.

Everyone says no. But if it's something like the CIA involved, event the UK gov't may only be going through motions of outrage for appearances and not trying to actually win an extradition.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by goatinaboat on Sunday January 26, 2020 @03:04AM (#22151045)
But he was not a diplomat. He was working at an Air Force base, not the embassy!
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by raxxorrax on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:23AM (#22137904)
Procecuting a foreign citizen that helped uncover war crimes is by all measures of a sane mind a much worse precedent. And that even while accounting for the "what goes around comes around"-rules of diplomacy.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by goatinaboat on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:49AM (#22138729)
If she did have diplomatic immunity then what is the basis to prosecute (or even just sue) her in the UK?

If you do something that is a crime usually sentenced to >1 year in both countries, then diplomatic immunity does not apply. Source: BBC

Also to have diplomatic immunity you must be an accredited diplomat agreed by the host country before entering. She was not.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by mytailorisrich on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:59AM (#22139336)
> If you do something that is a crime usually sentenced to >1 year in both countries, then diplomatic immunity does not apply.

That's not the case. If it was then bypassing the Vienna Convention would be straightforward.

In the UK foreign diplomats commonly avoid prosecution for serious crimes because they are protected if their home country refuses to waive immunity.

> Also to have diplomatic immunity you must be an accredited diplomat agreed by the host country before entering. She was not.

It does not matter as family members are covered. What matters is whether her husband had diplomatic immunity.

In any case, diplomatic immunity is a moot point at this stage since she was quickly 'exfiltrated' and the US have made clear that they won't send her back.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by ceejayoz on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:33AM (#22138016)
There's already precedent for revoking diplomatic immunity for one's own diplomats. It's fairly rare, but very doable.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by shadowgovt on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:53AM (#22139282)
She's not a diplomat.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by greatpatton on Friday January 24, 2020 @08:30AM (#22137984)
I think that you don't fully understand the concept underlying diplomatic immunity. Diplomatic immunity exists to ensure that countries cannot use the local legal system when no crime is committed in order to put pressure on the diplomat or his family, not to go away when a real crime is committed. A lot of countries will wave diplomatic immunity when a real crime is committed or will prosecute the diplomat in their local legal system. The only countries refusing to do so are rogue or third world countries.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by commoner on Friday January 24, 2020 @09:14AM (#22138400)
> The only countries refusing to do so are rogue or third world countries.

The U.S. has failed to waive diplomatic immunity in a number of reckless/drunk driving cases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Vehicular_...

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by magduf on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:13AM (#22138890)
Are you trying to counter the previous post, or support it?
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by commoner on Friday January 24, 2020 @04:14PM (#22142531)
Neither, since it's a matter of perspective.
Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by FpUser on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:03PM (#22140117)
"The only countries refusing to do so are rogue or third world countries."

I wish people consult at least wikipedia when making claim. In this particular area "good" US looks worse than "bad" Russia which at least criminally charged the offender once he had been sent back to Russia.

The US does stand up for its citizens which is a nice quality but on the other hand it goes overboard in many cases.

Re:US Department of Justice Argues Assange Has No First Amen... by greatpatton on Friday January 24, 2020 @12:42PM (#22140561)
yes that's exactly what I'm saying... (puzzled)