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Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by earlINmeyerkeg on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:29PM (#21972943)
The greatest innovation in the history of mankind was a land consolidation. It took what 100 peasants all making enough food for subsistence living to 100 peasants be able to make enough food for thousands of people.

It's not sad, it's progress.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by NeedMoreTea on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:53PM (#21974968)
The end of peasantry was long before the rise of corporate, industrialised agriculture.

Like so many human activities, fashions, and innovations, the reduction in numbers required to work the land started off providing a benefit and ultimately went much too far. Looking at the destruction such as algal blooms in countless water courses from over fertilisation, steady soil erosion, loss of wild flora and fauna caused by industrialised agriculture and the colossal fields with a single crop, as far as the eye can see in every direction, it's hard to call it progress. It's change. Milk in shops is older than it was, homogenisation allows older milk to pass without notice. It's not progress, and hasn't been for quite some considerable time.

We have large, pretty, consistent fruit and vegetables, but there's been a 50% decline in nutrient content since the war, and a similar decline in taste -- frequently replaced by sugars. We've hugely increased systemic risk from use of monocrops as all it takes is a single virulent disease to put the entire world's production at risk -- see bananas.

Even the productivity gains are overstated. On the old mixed, family farm the raw individual crop productivity was far lower, but the chickens, pigs and plants overlapped such that the waste of one provided food or fertiliser for the others, the animals provided some degree of pest control, and as a whole the productivity was far better than usually assumed.

Industrialisation begets simplification, begets monoculture, for the sake of profit not progress.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by joshuahughes on Monday January 06, 2020 @07:35PM (#21975322)
Thank you for taking the time to give a detailed response here. I’ve always found it astonishing that the side-effects of ‘progress’ like diminishing nutrient content and environmental impact are so willingly ignored. Feeding more people is a positive, but it’s rather a hollow victory if their well-being and health ultimately takes a hit.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by holoduke on Monday January 06, 2020 @08:02PM (#21975586)
Yes maybe the word progress is wrong. It should be control. In the end the goal of human kind is to take control of every square inch on this planet. Farming has shown some real advancing examples of this principle
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by andrepd on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:03PM (#21973283)
Land consolidation can be done through communes/co-ops, in which case the benefits of increased productivity are fairly distributed, or through private corporations, in which case profits are privatised and concentrated on a small owner elite class.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by earlINmeyerkeg on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:18PM (#21973431)
There are dairy co-ops where I live that do this sort of thing. That's why they're so huge. However the small ma and pop ones that have local well known businesses charge an arm and a leg for half a gallon of milk. Yeah sorry, I'll pay half that cost for a gallon at walmart, thanks.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by bigjimmyk3 on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:21PM (#21974115)
I was fascinated to hear a recent news story about how this works. The US has a long history of subsidizing its dairy industry (not unlike other countries) and part of that has been a "price floor" on milk. This floor applies to retailers purchasing milk from producers / distributors, but if the retailer also owns the producer... there's no retail price floor. Hence, the fairly extreme price difference between a regional dairy's milk and Great Value.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by nkurz on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @12:59AM (#21977337)
Milk pricing is complicated, and I don't really understand it, but I don't think your comment is correct. There exists a "price floor" on a national level that establishes a minimum price that is payed to producers. This price differs based on location, which acts as a proxy for price of production.

But I'm pretty sure there is no mandated federal minimum retail price, although some individual states (Maine, California, Pennsylvania, probably others) have state-specific laws regarding retail pricing. Are you maybe confusing a state law where you live with national policy? Or am I out-of-date?

I am surprised by how inexpensive compared to local brands Walmart's Great Value milk is where I shop in Vermont. My guess was that this is because the local brands pay their producers at the higher North-Eastern rate, whereas Walmart sources their milk from the mid-West and can pay a much lower wholesale price.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jelliclesfarm on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:44AM (#21977900)
Dairy is an abusive industry in the United States and heavily subsidized. It costs more per gallon than the sale price per gallon. Dairy farms are dying. The mid west is thrilled about hemp farms..it’s expected to save a lot of farms. Until it doesn’t. But that’s another discussion re hemp.

The people who make money on dairy farms are the ones who chemical companies and pharmaceutical companies. The cost of raising milch cows eats away at margins. Dairy farmers survive because of subsidies until they have to keep producing more and more ..they stretch and stretch and then they collapse. Tragic.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by quacked on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:53PM (#21973799)
Your choice unfortunately affects the greater world. Which would you rather have- a locally-produced society that's expensive to live in, or a Walmart society that's convenient to live in?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by iso1210 on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:10PM (#21974573)
It makes sense for the local optimisation of the individual to go for the walmart society - after all their single choice won't make a difference to anything other than their bottom line

It makes sense for people as a whole to optimise as a society and have the locally produced society

That's where we can choose an economic system that ensures that we optimise in general rather than individually, so we avoid the prisoner's dilemma type problems.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by quacked on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:24PM (#21974700)
I've come to the same conclusion. Never before in history have people truly optimize while thinking of themselves as a whole- the second something more convenient was offered, they took it immediately. I think that we're at a place in human history where we desperately need every person to step back from convenience in order to optimize for society.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by 1MoreThing on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @01:17PM (#21982784)
This is the point of government and regulation. We're not going to get far relying on willpower and rational thought in individual decision-making. So we use government as tool to help use out.

I can't stop myself from eating an entire of package of Oreos if they're in the kitchen. So I don't buy them. I don't give myself the choice, because I know I'll make a bad one. Instead, I choose to restrict my choice (and the choice of the rest of my household) for our overall well-being.

This feels pretty bad if you're a 10-year-old and just want some freaking cookies. Sorry you weren't able to make your own choice there. Our overall well-being took priority over your individual liberties. I get why that is unacceptable to some folks, but there has to be some balance, and sometimes that means restricting personal liberties in order to maintain the health of the overall system and community.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by Nasrudith on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @12:42PM (#21982335)
To be fair all attempts at optimization on a grand scale like that give a new meaning to calling "premature optimization the root of all evil" as it starts including things like Eugenics and Inquisitions. It inevitably ends in failure, tears, and travesties. Or more pedestrian Soviet style lack of market failures.

Local is "sexy" but it has had worse efficency instead of better like promised and is often premised upon overassumptions of the cost of transit and a denial of inconvenient fact of economies of scale because it doesn't fit their world view.

It appears that part of the reason it is popular is because people think they understand it and think the logistics would be easier. I would put it in the simple, easy, and wrong camp of ideas.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by mustacheemperor on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:40PM (#21974835)
As far as the individual goes, I think the locally optimal decision differs if you care about the difference in quality of taste from the non Walmart milk, or in the quality of life in the cattle that produced it.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by yesbabyyes on Monday January 06, 2020 @10:38PM (#21976598)
Makes me consider Douglas Hofstadter's superrationality. Hofstadter provided this definition: "Superrational thinkers, by recursive definition, include in their calculations the fact that they are in a group of superrational thinkers."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superrationality

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by micmil on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @11:43AM (#21981619)
This is a false dichotomy. I want a society that's efficient and utilizes minimal resources for maximum gain.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by rascul on Monday January 06, 2020 @07:43PM (#21975396)
Around here, there's a chain of grocery stores that costs less than Walmart for better quality, locally sourced dairy (not milk though), meat, fruits, and vegetables. Boxed goods are usually cheaper at Walmart, though.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by dsfyu404ed on Monday January 06, 2020 @07:47PM (#21975437)
I'd rather have milk be readily available at $2.19 USD/gal than subsidize local farms.

I make six figures and I can get by at $4/gal but if/when you apply that reasoning to subsidies/protectionist regulations across the economy my ability to purchase goods and services is greatly reduced and so is my quality of life. I'd get by though. But it's not about me. It's about the family making half of what I make with three children that need to be fed and clothed. They're the ones who really get screwed when you hike the prices of commodities with protectionist measures. So given the choice of who gets screwed I'd pick the local dairy farmers every time.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by 8note on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:45PM (#21973717)
how much of that is government subsidies?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jessant on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:07PM (#21973331)
Nothing stopping people from doing that.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by ahoy on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:19PM (#21973439)
There is an enormous body of law in the US that incentivizes a top-down corporate business structure and disincentives a co-op business structure.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by giggles_giggles on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:03PM (#21973933)
This is quite a claim, but it's too vague for me to research independently. Where would I even start in exploring the "enormous body of law" that "incentivizes a top-down corporate business structure?" I am not asking rhetorically -- this is news to me and I'd like to know the details.

Of course, co-ops aren't common in the US, but they do exist (like REI) so I'm just curious about the details of this criticism of the legal landscape in the US but without further information am unable to research the claim.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by emiliobumachar on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:46PM (#21974349)
Arguably that's exactly the problem. There's so much law applying to farming that you'd need a sizable legal department to know it all. That favors centralization.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by Nasrudith on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @12:52PM (#21982482)
That applies to every field as corner cases are covered. Restricting it to what is actually relevant to the domain is sufficent to "consultation with relevant country lawyer" as opposed to entire law firms.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jessant on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:32PM (#21973579)
I think human nature incentivizes top-down corporate business structures and disincentivizes co-op businesss structures.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by apt-get on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:40PM (#21973669)
Which is why 75% of France's farmers belong to an agricultural cooperative?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by seanalltogether on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:56PM (#21975003)
I can't speak for France specifically but if it's anything like the UK and Ireland then farming families are dis-incentivized to sell land because its costs nothing to hold, and always increases in value. As a farmer you might not even own the land you work on but rent it for the season, and large corporations don't work well with that kind of uncertainty.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by cpach on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:14PM (#21974056)
Are those profitable though? Farming is heavily subsidized by the EU.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by Apocryphon on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:27PM (#21974174)
And American agriculture is likewise heavily subsidized by the federal government.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by ahoy on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:04PM (#21974517)
US agriculture is also heavily subsidized
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jelliclesfarm on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:46AM (#21977915)
Only commodity crops and those listed on Wall Street/stock exchange.

Not the food and vegetables and fruits we consume. Hogs and corn and sugar beets and canola and soy are subsidized.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by dredmorbius on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:37PM (#21974811)
Farming is heavily subsidised throughout the industrialised world.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by chad_oliver on Monday January 06, 2020 @07:24PM (#21975257)
Farming in New Zealand is not subsidized, and I believe the same is true of Australia. It's possible to compete on the open market and succeed.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jelliclesfarm on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @02:51AM (#21977937)
NZ used to have subsidies but they got rid of it. Good for them. Fonterra is their big co-op. But with Chinese investment/ownership, most of it is going towards milk powder for export. They posted a loss for the first time last year. Canada has subsidies but different from American. They use a system called Supply Management. They make smaller family farms work better and will survive unlike American dairy. We have more CAFOs and factory farms that are not ecologically and environmentally sustainable in the long run. It’s a mess.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by chottocharaii on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:41PM (#21973672)
Perhaps, but the body of law point means we’ll never find out if you’re right or not.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by NeoBasilisk on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:17PM (#21974079)
I would be very careful in trying to attribute something as complex as corporate structures to human nature. We have seen massive changes in all parts of society throughout the last 10k years. I don't think the human genome has changed so rapidly as to cycle through slavery, feudalism, mercantilism, capitalism, etc.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by andrepd on Monday January 06, 2020 @09:12PM (#21976071)
It's always such a convenient and supremely lazy explanation. It's human nature for blacks to be servile. It's human nature for peasants to be ruled by the lord of the manor. And so on.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by hinkley on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:46PM (#21974899)
> Nothing stopping people from doing that.

So... human nature. Human nature is stopping people from doing that.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by windexh8er on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:56PM (#21974433)
There are many corporate things that "stop people from doing that".

Seed monopolies [0]. Costco is undercutting chicken production just to maintain a $4.99 offering to their customers [1]. Mega farms have put over 2700 family farms out of business in Wisconsin [2]. CAFOs create pollution equivalent to 168 million people in the state of Iowa with only a total population of 3.2 million people [3]. All of this manure gets dumped back into the soil for monoculture corn farming which is grown to feed livestock which is also significantly inefficient and drains local resources on clean and fresh water supplies and significantly pollutes downstream via runoff into large rivers [4]. The main polluters are, again, these large scale farms concentrating operations for efficiencies to fulfill the ever expanding lineup of highly processed foods the majority of western culture now eats on a daily basis.

Money stops local farming. These mega farms are not in the business to make a great product, they're in the business to make a great profit - at the expense of their customers, no different than the tobacco manufacturers agenda. Between lobbyism, patents, mergers and grants by states desperate for revenue the concentration of control in farming has become very bleak in a short decade.

[0] https://philhoward.net/2018/12/31/global-seed-industry-chang... [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/business/costco-5-dollar-chic... [2] https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/industrial-dairy-farmin... [3] https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/agriculture/20... [4] https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/center...

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by ydb on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:12PM (#21974592)
It looks like the neoliberal cult of "progress" has its acolytes on Hacker News, but that really shouldn't surprise.

What is sad, though, is the distinct lack of empathy that this ideology instills in its adherents. Leaving people behind is not a sign of progress; instead, it's a sign of an ill society.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by danem on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:39PM (#21974824)
I'll take being able to feed the entire world's population more affordably than ever over the jobs of a small group of people in a rich country. This isn't to say the government should play no role in cushioning those affected by progress, but the progress has been undeniably good.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by NeedMoreTea on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:55PM (#21974995)
Progress implies improvement. s/progress/change/
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by danem on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:58PM (#21975015)
And how haven't things improved for the vast majority of people on Earth in regard to food security?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by carapace on Monday January 06, 2020 @10:55PM (#21976676)
Well, it's interesting, we now have obesity problems and other issues brought on by our very success. "Too much is always better than not enough." But too much still brings trade-offs.

Further, consider that, since the invention of artificial nitrogen fertilizer[1] we have been converting oil into humans[2], and population growth is the main driver of environmental impacts. Food security is an illusion: if anything ever interrupts the production of nitrogen fertilizer in a serious way billions of people will starve.

Jared Diamond called agriculture "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race"[3]

We cannot judge the benefits of our civilization just yet.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process circa 1910

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population Look at the graph, notice that it curves up sharply circa 1925-1950.

[3] http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/THOC/Readings/Diamond_Worst...

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by TeMPOraL on Monday January 06, 2020 @07:19PM (#21975203)
The dependence on fossil fuels goes so deep that we may end up having to choose between going hungry and overheating the planet.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by m463 on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @12:17AM (#21977115)
I found it interesting reading the book The Box[1] because it showed how shipping was transformed over the last century or so.

The book is a giant analogy for huge inevitable changes that affect society.

It also showed how society dealt with the changes. Some people were supported by unions. On the other hand, some goverments tried to control things too much and the shipping industry just left and went to other cities or states.

[1] The Box: How the Shipping Container Made the World Smaller and the World Economy Bigger

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by sl1ck731 on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:34PM (#21972995)
The same could be said for robots displacing humans in factories or trucks or anywhere else. That doesn't make it less sad for people's whose livelihoods depend on those positions just because its technological progress.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by beardedetim on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:59PM (#21973238)
> doesn't make it less sad for people's who livelihoods depend on those positions

I totally agree. Id say, however, that we should be making it so those people, and we all, are okay without a job/with our jobs being automated away, not be Luddites about it.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by pharke on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:14PM (#21974614)
The unfortunate thing is that people have been predicting that increased automation should lead to lower working hours and higher pay since 1930 when John Maynard Keynes predicted that we'd all be working 15 hour weeks. It's nice to just assume that we'll all benefit from more automation and more efficient processes but unless we all act to ensure that it is so it is not likely to happen.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by heavyset_go on Monday January 06, 2020 @10:50PM (#21976662)
The Luddites were Luddites precisely because they weren't okay without a job, they went hungry and homeless.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by wolco on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:58PM (#21973229)
What is the fear around robots? Machines have been displacing human labour for the last 100 years.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by cmcd on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:17PM (#21973413)
During the industrial revolution hard labor jobs transitioned to maintenance work for the machines. The problem is as we improve at automation the need for non-technical maintenance decreases.

A small team of engineers can displace thousands or tens of thousands of workers without creating any new opportunities.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jnwatson on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:22PM (#21974674)
So has Microsoft Excel. We’ve already eliminated millions of desk jobs with IT. What is particularly special about factory jobs?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by mrb on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:11PM (#21974035)
«A small team of engineers can displace thousands or tens of thousands of workers without creating any new opportunities.»

A corporation that did that would have significantly increased its profits, and this new wealth is often (not always) indirectly redistributed to society. For example the corporation could increase its production (ie. hiring more workers), or increase salaries/bonuses, or increase stock buybacks (therefore benefiting stock owners whoever they are), or spin off new business units, or decrease the prices of their products/services to further improve their competitiveness (hence benefiting customers), etc. Rarely does a corporation sit on piles of cash doing nothing (one notable counter-example: Apple.)

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by hinkley on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:59PM (#21975020)
At some point, and there are arguments to be made that this point was 'After World War II', industry is capable of producing far more products than the public actually needs. You take out children, the elderly, stay at home parents, and the average person is productive for maybe a third of a lifetime, so being able to produce enough for 3 people is actually necessary.

What happens when you can produce enough for ten? What do the other 70% of people do? Make products nobody actually needs, using up raw materials. That's what we've done since the War and we decry all the waste. You can't have it both ways.

What happens when you can produce enough for 15? 20? 100? In theory that means leisure time in heaps for everyone. In practice we don't have societal structures that actually allow that to happen. You will not receive a week's pay for 6 hours of work. You will not be accepted by your neighbors and peers for working 6 hours a week. Or zero.

You're meant to be doing something. We enforce this with microaggressions on people we've literally just met.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by wolco on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:29PM (#21973543)
It frees up a population to do other work. A small team of engineers can create a platform that creates something new to work on. Second life clothing shop for example that would not exist without machines displacing humans.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by ahoy on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:20PM (#21973451)
Losing your job to automation is bad for your livelihood. It has been since we started automating things.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by wolco on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:24PM (#21973495)
Is it bad for your children's livelihood? You are sending a message on a computer made by a machine. Parts are so small it would be impossible to do by hand which created a number of other jobs to support this new ability.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by ahoy on Monday January 06, 2020 @06:05PM (#21974534)
To the extent that my children depend on me to eat, yes, its bad for their livelihood.

I'm saying that technology is _bad_. I'm saying that losing your job is bad, and if your boss replacing you with a machine is what causes that you're right to be upset.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by heavyset_go on Monday January 06, 2020 @10:54PM (#21976673)
> Is it bad for your children's livelihood?

Yes, there are numerous documented detrimental effects to children raised in poverty, and many of those effects follow them for life.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by throwawayhhakdl on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:44PM (#21974324)
If you work in the fields, and I invent tech that makes you twice as efficient, the most likely result is that half of people like you lose their jobs, and wages stay the same, if not decline due to oversupply.

Might be great for me, but it sucks balls for you. And it tends to suck balls for more people than it helps.

Edit: and that basically follows through to your kids...

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by macinjosh on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:33PM (#21972977)
Progress on a societal scale for certain. Sadness on the personal scale as new generations mourn the loss of their family's historical way of life. Both can exist :)
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by earlINmeyerkeg on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:20PM (#21973456)
That only exists on a generational level. The generations born afterward will never know about it, and therefore not care because it wasn't embedded in their cultural perspective.

It's like taking a childs binky away. Over time, you totally forget why you even had the thing in the first place.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by cpach on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:16PM (#21974074)
No need to be condescending.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by Amezarak on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:31PM (#21973561)
This particular progress makes us vastly more vulnerable to a catastrophic systems collapse. A lot of small, independent farmers are more antifragile to natural events than a few giant megacorporations. We're optimizing for profits at the expense of disaster.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by 8bitsrule on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:25PM (#21974151)
Here we are, in a time when the shortcomings of centralization are rabidly apparent -across the board-. Counting that as some kind of win can only appeal to those who believe they are winning. For all the rest of us, the cheerful irony is more than a little disarming.

Efficiency and longevity can be inversely proportional. May the reductionists alone reap their crop.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by vonnik on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:03PM (#21973932)
Who says progress can't be sad?

The consolidation you're talking about was a massive disruption, which brought a lot of change to families and societies. Most kinds of change are painful even when they lead to greater efficiency.

While the transformation of agriculture has led to great prosperity, prosperity also brings hierarchy; i.e. more unequal social forms.

Much of the US has transitioned from a relatively agrarian and egalitarian society to one that is much richer, but also less equal and more divided, in the last 150 years.

There are clear tradeoffs in that transition, which some people might call the march of progress. Ways of life die off, and those who knew them in childhood often regret their passage, regardless of whether the world's wheat production increases.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by zorpner on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:31PM (#21972965)
It's not sad, it's progress.

These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by temporalparts on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:39PM (#21973044)
It's sad that progress must mean sadness for some. We should have better social safety net so that displacement doesn't mean despair.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by macinjosh on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:48PM (#21973127)
While the financial/livelihood component is a major factor I think most of those affected, if asked, would say that is the least of the reasons for their sadness. It is the intangible things being lost and the end of a way of life that causes the most pain IMHO.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by kristiandupont on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:34PM (#21972994)
Indeed. Also, many things that are good in moderation are bad in excess.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by earlINmeyerkeg on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:22PM (#21973477)
You're right. I think I personally just get so incredibly upset with people who always look toward the past or are just mortified of change. I associate the sadness with their fear of change.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by durge on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:16PM (#21974073)
You should read 'The Storm Before the Storm' by Mike Duncan. It details the fall of the Roman Republic and highlights the role played by land consolidation and the social dislocation that gave rise to the empire. For better or worse, it was definitely less stable.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jv22222 on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:48PM (#21973750)
I heard somewhere that the greatest innovation (the most impactful at the particular stage of our evolution) was the bicycle, because, it enabled human cross breeding over much larger distances at a much faster rate than possible before.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by Armisael16 on Monday January 06, 2020 @04:56PM (#21973835)
That seems rather implausible given that railroads came about at the same time.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by lmm on Monday January 06, 2020 @07:13PM (#21975156)
How affordable was railroad travel? Even assuming there was a railroad in the right place, would people have been able to go back and forth often enough for courtship?
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by Piskvorrr on Tuesday January 07, 2020 @03:57AM (#21978226)
Railroads revolutionized cargo. Passenger transport was a cute party trick at first.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jv22222 on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:00PM (#21973881)
Well, there would be a lot more bicycles and they could go a lot more places a lot faster, no? I.E. They would enable a much faster rate of genetic mutation.
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by Armisael16 on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:42PM (#21974311)
No. Bicycles were heavy, uncomfortable products for the first ~40 years of their existence. Rubber tires and pedals didn’t come to bicycles until the 1860s. By that point the US had >30k miles of extensively linking most of the northern states. The modern bicycle didn’t really come into being until the 1890s.

I’m having a hard time getting numbers for track in Europe, but the UK was the real pioneer and Germany followed quickly.

Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jv22222 on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:54PM (#21974417)
Well, clearly, wherever I heard that from was a terrible source of information! I stand corrected!
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by jeffrallen on Monday January 06, 2020 @05:14PM (#21974057)
Also isn't it a lot more comfortable cross-breeding in a sleeper car than on a bicycle? (Asking for a friend.)
Re:For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now ... by trhway on Monday January 06, 2020 @03:57PM (#21973224)
it is a great progress, yep. We just always implement it in a sad, social darwinism style, way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JEYHczRar8&list=PLwcGjCE72U...