What is the reason for this? I do this every morning the car has frozen over... I turn on the engine, heating, AC, windshield heating, back windows heating, "keep the air inside"-switch and go back inside for 3-5 min.

Two reasons this is bad:

1. Emissions, catalytic converters and such will not reach full operating temp, so it dumps a lot more emissions than when it's up to operating temp. Diesels were even worse in this regard cause the particulate filter plugs up when idling and then needs to trigger fuel wasting regen cycles.

2. Engine wear/damage. Oil pressures usually don't come up enough to properly lubricate components on the engine while cold idling for long periods of time. (Like, after the rpm's settle back down) This adds unnecessary wear. Should really only run an engine long enough to bring up initial oil pressure and then take it easy in it until it's up to full operating temp. (This is because parts expand at different rates, so pushing a cold engine hard will oftentimes blow seals)

> Oil pressures usually don't come up enough to properly lubricate components on the engine while cold idling for long periods of time.

I haven't seen this in practice. In fact, I see the opposite. My 2003 350z has an oil pressure gauge, and when it's idling while cold (say, < 40 degrees F), the pressure is actually higher than it is when cruising on the highway once it's warmed up.

I attribute this to the oil being "thicker" when cold.

On a really cold start, the pressure goes well beyond 60 PSI until the RPMs taper back down from around 1500 to the normal cold idle of ~1000, at which time it drops a bit.

This is mostly correct observation with an incorrect conclusion. Oil pressures under load will be higher until oil temps come up. This is due to decreasing viscosity that improves the fuel flow. It still remains though that slower moving pump moves less oil (the volume doesn't change with temperature, just how quickly it falls back to the pan) and less oil even with a higher pressure may not provide adequate lubrication.

The other major issue that specifically effects cold idling is that the ECM is going to increase the amount of fuel dumped into each cylinder, past what gets completely burned. This leads to problem called 'quench' that leaves gasoline behind on the walls of the cylinder after combustion. This will mix with the oil on these areas and actually dissolve it over time.

Anyways, don't take it just from me. No manufacturer specifies over 30 seconds of idle time for their vehicles: https://info.ornl.gov/sites/publications/files/Pub61263.pdf

Not the parent poster, but I remote start my car so I don't have to sit inside it while it warms up enough to be able to drive. Is this not a thing anymore? I was always taught to warm the car up in cold weather so that the oil has had a chance to fully lubricate the engine so that you don't damage it if you have to accelerate quickly for whatever reason. Besides, I have to wait for the windows to defrost anyway. So why not let the car do that while I'm getting my coat on and shutting off the lights in the house and whatnot?

In older cars with worse tolerances and bad oil this was a major issue. Newer cars without carburetors ensure the proper fuel mixture even when cold. And multi viscosity oils ensure lubrication even when cold.

Performance will still be worse and wear higher than a warm engine. But there’s no reason you can’t let it warm up on the way. Growing up in Canada it was always body rust not the engine that ultimately did the cars in anyways.

> Newer cars without carburetors ensure the proper fuel mixture even when cold.

They also advance the timing when cold which increases emissions. I forgot to mention that as well.

> And multi viscosity oils ensure lubrication even when cold.

Improved, still not ideal.

The second one isn’t a good reason to make something illegal.

For some reason that doesn’t sound so crazy for Germany though. I’m not sure why.

It doesn’t sound out of the ordinary for any of the countries on the continent to my ears, different culture and all that.

> The second one isn’t a good reason to make something illegal.

I didn't say illegal, I said bad.

Noise and emissions. A lot of people do it anyway, and the fine is usually 10 EUR, so not a big deal even in the unlikely case that you get caught.

This illustrates a problem with German traffic laws. It is often cheaper to park somewhere where it is prohibited than paying regular price for a spot.

People double park all over the world, not just Germany.

It's bad for the environment. We just have to scratch the ice off of the windows before we can leave.

I always do this, but when I try to pull out of the drive the windows all steam up. Meaning I'm now sat in my car for 5 minutes waiting for them to clear anyway.

(I'm very much against wiping the insides of the windows as the smearing can make driving at night very dazzling)

I start my car, put on the heater and airco. Start scratching my windows clean and by the time I'm done my car has warmed up enough for the windows not to fog up. :)

Seems like the best way to go to me, but, in Germany apparently you have to start driving with foggy windows :s (ok, or buy an auxiliary heater)

What would cause this? Scraped the ice in Wisconsin for years and nothing steamed up. Only rain makes me steam up.

What if you open the driver's side window at first?

In cold climates people use fuel powered auxiliary heaters, that have their own timers and/or remote control.

Or even connect the cars to the electric mains at their house and heat them electrically.

See "Driving in winter" [1]

[1] https://finland.fi/life-society/how-to-survive-winter-in-fin...

Apparently in many new cars the electric heaters aren't good enough for colder climates, because these engines don't have factory options (or physical accomodation) for an electric heater that would heat the coolant - a lot of the heat is wasted to outside air and heating the engine exterior when the heater is tacked on the side of the engine. And they work with the same limited amount of power as the older ones.

Maybe to avoid destroying the environment and other people's health even more?

That is wrong. Remote engine start != Remote heating.

I work in that business.

European Cadillacs do allow you to start the engine remotely (usually to heat or cool down the car).

It might not be allowed, but everyone does it anyway.

Not everyone. It is a very small minority where I live.

I don't even see people letting their cars idle while scraping, which was the norm 15 years ago. I think the info has spread that it is bad for your engine and the environment. And newer cars don't need it at all.

On my region I see it all the time during cold Winter mornings.

Throughout the years living here, I have learned that following every law by the book, is more a stereotype foreigners have about Germany than how things actually work.

I have to idle my 2015 car in the winter so that the windows don’t fog up. If there was a way to get the defrost to turn on at full blast with hot temps and not running the car I would be all for it.

Wait, that makes no sense in the context of the above argument.

For the windows to fog up, you need to sit in the car right? How long do you need to sit in your car until they fog up? Why are you sitting in your non-moving car for so long? And how often does that happen?

In our cars it takes about 10 minutes in cold winter before the fog comes up when around 2 people sit in it, unless it is raining and we just jumped in wet a minute ago. And it's gone a minute after starting the AC again. And one is a small car 2 week short of being 20 years old.

From this viewpoint I cannot possibly understand your reasoning? Are you trying to find an excuse to disable Start/Stop?

> For the windows to fog up, you need to sit in the car right?

False. In autumn, when temperatures are low and winter comes (minuses) the humidity is really high. I can't tell you exactly what must happen, but I'v had fogged windows in the morning.

The quickest way to get rid of foggy windows is max heat, with AC on.

Aftermarket 12v defrosters exist.

In Scandinavia, very many (probably a clear majority) of cars are equipped with 230 V heaters. There's a connector in the front of the car, you plug the car into an electric socket which has a timer. It goes on in the morning an hour before you plan to leave, and heats up the engine block (heating resistor in the coolant) and optionally there's a Schuko socket in the front passenger's feet and you can plug a heater with a fan there, so that the inside of the car is warm and dry. Both the engine and the cabin heaters range from 600 to 1200 watts.

Most cars can have one installed at the dealership too

Is it actually bad for the engine? I presumed that stressing a cold engine while driving is worse than just letting it idle. I have a 2018 car and it gives a warning light if the engine is cold. At the very least it makes scraping take half the time.

Yes, according to the manufacturer of one of my cars, idling the cold eninge should be avoided - considerate driving quickly after starting the cold engine should be considered instead.

The argumentation in the manual is that the car won't reach operational temperatures for a longer time while idling. New efficient motors apparently idle very efficiently (surprise?), which generates not enough heat.

I see. My old 2000 acura would idle another 1000 rpm higher when it was cold, maybe to warm it up faster. Some new cars seem to shut off completely at a stop until you hit the throttle.

Electric cars do not have warm engines so it's likely that auxiliary heaters will be more commonplace as idling an electric car means nothing. I'm sure it will drain battery somewhat to keep the inside warm

Tesla drains battery to control battery temp overnight. And yes, you can activate heating inside before you drive.

Weird, my car (2018 model) is from a german company and was originally sold in germany and it certainly lets you remotely start the engine in order to heat up the car.