News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by danielfoster on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:11AM (#21564858)
I’ve been pretty frustrated with Google lately. Maybe it’s me, but they seem to keep skewing their algorithm to ignore precise queries and always show broad matches.

For example I recently searched “US ambassador Germany” on Google News and the top results were all stories about Ukraine and the impeachment hearings. Google completely ignored “Germany.”

Similar things happen to me all the time on Google Search. Perhaps I just search too many long tail queries?

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by apatters on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:24AM (#21564962)
Having been on the fringes of the SEO industry for many years, my theory is that the spammers and algorithm gamers have slowly but surely won out. This has forced Google to de-emphasize keyword relevancy and instead prioritize content source--large and well known brands with high domain authority have captured increasingly larger numbers of queries over the years.

Someone at Google will probably disagree emphatically, but it seems to me like this represents a bit of an existential threat to web search. There's so much money in being #1 for popular queries that countless actors will throw enormous resources into getting there.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by doublekill on Monday November 18, 2019 @12:23PM (#21566125)
I do not think it is the SEO, but Google adapting to its less-technical userbase (people who search for "facebook" and click the first result).

It makes sense for this target audience to give broad results. They seem to be relying more on neural language models to accomplish this.

Google also surfaces more authoritative results than Bing, Google thus favors bigger commercial sites.

Google is suprisingly good on vague searches (for instance, describing a singer's appearance and song themes will return the name), but getting worse on "conspiracy"-type searches (you will not find many amateur sites discussing the high-class escort past of the First Lady, because these lack authority, all results focus instead on the massive fine for posting allegations).

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by keenmaster on Monday November 18, 2019 @03:29PM (#21567856)
Then why not further personalize search? I know that search results already vary according to things like the user’s location, but the entire search algorithm should be tweaked according to the user. Machine learning could potentially do a good job of this.

Google can also allow users to self-select. The way to do this would be to have a survey with multiple sliders that allow the user to demonstrate, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much they care about a certain parameter. There would be default profiles that automatically set the sliders for you, like “academic.”

Even if Google doesn’t take this route for global search, they can add more features to advanced search. Google Advanced Search is underpowered, given Google’s technological capabilities.

Finally, with regards to the Advanced Search approach, Google can allow the user to create several search buttons that always appear on the Google front page. For example, an Arab American researcher may have a default search button, an Academic search button, and an Arabic search button, all of which can be tweaked along multiple parameters, as described above.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by UweSchmidt on Monday November 18, 2019 @07:51PM (#21569793)
There seem to be very few "sliders" in today's web. I suspect all kinds of advanced functionality would go directly against what those companies are all about.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by curious_fella1 on Monday November 18, 2019 @03:20PM (#21567774)
Google has been introducing a new parser for natural language queries

https://www.blog.google/products/search/search-language-unde...

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by shadowgovt on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:46AM (#21565176)
Spammers and algorithmic gamers are / were also an existential threat to web search.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by calibas on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:12AM (#21565415)
Google and SEO are a fundamental issue with the web itself. It's been a while since Google could simply search for websites, but that's no longer possible in the same manner it used to be. Google has become so dominant that the web itself changes to accommodate Google.

Google can no longer be an independent observer, as the act of observation changes the results!

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by drak0n1c on Monday November 18, 2019 @02:56PM (#21567566)
That's really unfortunate. If this type of brand-reliant search ranking continues it will only accelerate the centralization of the web toward big entities.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by bagacrap on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:19AM (#21564912)
Halfway through your post you moved the goalposts from News to Search. When I search for the query you gave on google.com, I get a knowledge card about Richard Grenell. When I search on News, I do get articles about Ukraine. Are there any recent news articles about Richard Grenell or one of his predecessors though?
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by danielfoster on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:25AM (#21564967)
Good point. I see this behavior mostly on Search but the last example I documented is News.

Richard Grenell has been in the news: https://www.google.com/search?q=richard+grenell&safe=off&rlz...

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by johannes1234321 on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:29AM (#21565020)
John Kornblum, former US ambassador in Germany, is often present in German media when they need somebody to "explain" the USA or stories from cold war era. So in Germany media he can be found, how much then finds the way back in English speaking media I haven't checked.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by machbio on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:23AM (#21564950)
So much this - you have to go from least popular to most popular terms to get accurate results - there is a weightage penalty of how further the word is from the start of the query.

if you search "Javascript issues Rshiny" (this is just an example not the actual query) - you only get javascript results for 4 to 5 pages of results.. when you reverse it to "Rshiny Javascript issues" - the results are better

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by dsl on Monday November 18, 2019 @01:30PM (#21566796)
I have found as of late that using natural language search terms works much better over the old keyword soup you'd have to feed in to AltaVista or something.

i.e. "how do I change a ford taurus headlight" vs "taurus service manual headlight"

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by frandroid on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:46AM (#21565776)
This is really useful advice, thank you.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by spurgu on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:30AM (#21565027)
It's not just you. I find myself increasingly encapsulating words in my queries with quotes because Google outright ignores relevant words in my searches. In some cases it has even lead to queries looking like this:

"us" "ambassador" "germany"

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by DoingIsLearning on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:53AM (#21565245)
The quote used to enforce "must include expression" but this is no longer true with google queries.

My guess is that, by now, resource intensive 'power users' are not worth the effort for google.

For technical queries I moved on to ddg, it's not perfect but a hell of a lot less time waisted.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by dsl on Monday November 18, 2019 @01:33PM (#21566817)
Do you have any evidence to support that? The Google documentation indicates quotes are still the exact match operator https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/2466433?hl=en
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by JohnFen on Monday November 18, 2019 @07:39PM (#21569719)
I have nothing to point to, but my experience is that enclosing terms in quotes makes no actual difference.

Google search has been getting increasingly worse for me over the last five years or so. In terms of the quality of search results, it has no edge over DDG.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by DoingIsLearning on Monday November 18, 2019 @02:11PM (#21567192)
I stand corrected, I wanted to provide some examples but I cannot reproduce this anymore.

From memory I do recall the +/- and "" operator being overriden if there was a "popular" search query that contained broader results than my specific query.

Specifically for the "" operator was that the query would drop "" so instead of showing x results which must include that expression it would show broader results as if the expression was not contained in "".

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by Jtsummers on Monday November 18, 2019 @03:47PM (#21567994)
There was a time, several years ago now, where that was happening pretty regularly to me. It's gotten better, but since 2009 or so Google search quality has been on the decline for me. It only works well when I use things like site:blah.blah or quoted searches, or something I happened to search for and click on before (but couldn't find in history or had found on another computer). Finding novel things is a pain.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by cinnamonheart on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:50AM (#21565820)
I do this sometimes, and it still ignores the quoted words in favour of giving me whatever results they want. I'm not sure when it was changed to no longer require quoted words in the results, but I usually just give up on the search at that point.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by zerocrates on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:50AM (#21565218)
It frequently notifies you that it's ignoring a term in your search to give you a particular result: you see those "Doesn't contain: X" messages associated with a "must contain: X" link to override it... which I think just does the query over again but with that term in quotes.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by spurgu on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:53AM (#21565835)
Yeah but what I meant was that this is becoming increasingly frequent. I mean you would think that Google would try to include pages matching your full query in the top results and then when you keep moving to subpages it could give some less related hits as well. Now I often see these in the top 3 results.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by zerocrates on Monday November 18, 2019 @02:53PM (#21567548)
Yes, in general I'd agree with the sentiment that Google trends more toward trying to show you "popular" content and changing your search to fit that, rather than the other way around.

With the amount of stuff that gets shoved into Google search bars worldwide, it's easy to believe that kind of strategy is broadly beneficial, but it does lead to frustration when you're being precise with a query and you're overridden.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by JohnFen on Monday November 18, 2019 @07:40PM (#21569728)
Even those messages are very unreliable, though.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by ceejayoz on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:20AM (#21565478)
I wind up having to add "wiki" to about 25% of queries.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by matt4077 on Monday November 18, 2019 @01:21PM (#21566698)
That's actually not what's happening in OP's search (at least when I run it): Germany is included in every single snippet I see, it just isn't relevant for most of them. "ambassador to germany" works, though.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by rasz on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @01:10AM (#21570983)
Did you really mean "us" "ambassador" "germany"?

Here are some results for Taylor Swift instead:

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by rolltiide on Monday November 18, 2019 @02:22PM (#21567285)
Its not just you, there are memes that compare Google search results and Bing results now, with Bing giving more mechanically specific responses

Google has "overfitted" because their A/B test told them messing up more queries gets them higher "engagement". They are masquerading engagement as satisfaction, clouded by their incentive to have people dwell on ads longer.

Memes:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/608/639/8ef...

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/608/619/bec...

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/608/641/517...

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by gundmc on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @02:30AM (#21571246)
I think you're missing the idea of those memes if you think those are favoring Bing results...
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by rolltiide on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @12:35PM (#21575671)
They are now though

The bing memes go back ten years when it was giving unexpected worse results

The same memes are being repurposed because the same experience is giving better results than google’s differently worse results

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:31AM (#21565043)
I'd agree with this assessment. Searching for anything technical seems to especially have terrible results. I'm getting to the point that "verbatim" and "this year" feel like they should be defaults. Oh, and it really, really needs a "filter out anything that looks even remotely like a top 10" switch.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by dredmorbius on Monday November 18, 2019 @03:02PM (#21567611)
Inverse of "this year" is also very frequently desired.

Searching for a topic that's recently become, er, topical, but I'm interested in earlier discussion.

DDG's very limited date-ranged search is especially frustrating here. Book search is often more useful.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by NoodleIncident on Monday November 18, 2019 @12:48PM (#21566367)
I've been pretty frustrated with HN lately. Every time Google search is discussed, someone comments with a Google News search that fails for them, despite it being almost completely irrelevant to the conversation.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by justinmchase on Monday November 18, 2019 @12:07PM (#21565972)
Just contrast the results with a different engine and you decide who's fault the poor results are:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=US+ambassador+Germany&t=hk&ia=web

Them training you to have low expectations isn't the right way I don't think.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by jonny_eh on Monday November 18, 2019 @12:11PM (#21566012)
You're comparing a web search to a news search. If you do the same search on google.com (not news!), you get good results. Including a picture of the US ambassador to Germany.

https://www.google.com/?q=US+Ambassador+Germany

And when you search DDG in their news section, most of the results are about the impeachment hearing, just like Google.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=US+ambassador+Germany&t=hk&iar=new...

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by corodra on Monday November 18, 2019 @12:26PM (#21566154)
I'm going to second this for web searches. My results lately for either geopolitical or tech have been oddly broad as well. Even though I try to find specific information on a topic, the website results (I don't do their news searches often, can't speak to that one) always have a "trendy" vibe to them. Even if I'm looking for tutorial or technical info, there's been more search-result attention devoted to puff-piece blog articles roughly related to what I want. Like they are more focused on the political aspect of what I want instead of giving me what I want.

I've been noticing it for the past 3 or 4 weeks. I've been thinking my google-fu has been weakening. Glad to know I'm not the only one.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by shrubble on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:38AM (#21565103)
I have certainly been disappointed recently by Google search results when searching for certain information on microcontrollers and the Forth programming language. Forth gets corrected to fourth and/or is found in the idiom 'back and forth'
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by shadowgovt on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:58AM (#21565304)
Out of curiosity, do you do your searches with JavaScript disabled or logged out of your Google account?

The engine should generally pick up relatively quickly that when you specifically search for "Forth," you usually mean the programming language and not a typo. Catching these differences in use case is why customized search is a feature.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by giardini on Monday November 18, 2019 @12:12PM (#21566026)
This.

FWIW I will use "Forth language" or "Forth programming language" instead of "Forth" to delineate more precisely what I'm seeking.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by shadowgovt on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:45AM (#21565165)
Google search has moved away from keywords and towards queries.

"US ambassador Germany" makes it hard to comprehend what you intend. Do you get better results for "who is the US ambassador to Germany" or "news about us ambassador to Germany?"

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by JohnFen on Monday November 18, 2019 @07:45PM (#21569758)
For a few years, I got better results with natural language queries. However, over at least the last two, I've been getting better results by just including key words. The order of the words matters, though.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by pprplt on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:34PM (#21570447)
The worst part is the corporatized results. For example, if you search for a movie, google search returns the reviews of corporate newspapers first and in the results it also lists the corporate newspapers news reviews first so that you need to scroll down to see useful aggregators and go to the 2nd or 3rd page to see pertinent forum reviews or independent reviews.

Google properties have been skewing to less relevant news and corporate results ( search, news, maps and even youtube ).

It's a shell of it's former useful self. Hopefully ddg and other search providers step up their game to put pressure on google.

Google is just another example of a monopoly gone bad.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by matt4077 on Monday November 18, 2019 @01:19PM (#21566670)
In my attempt right now, I do get many articles about Ukraine, but every single one of them includes the word "Germany" in some form.

I belief this is an effect of Google News emphasising recency in its ranking algorithm.

Interestingly, your complaint is almost the opposite of the one often made on HN, namely that people would prefer a somewhat dumber but very literal search interface. It also shows why that wish's fulfilment might end up disappointing people: In the snippets I get, "Germany" gets included in these articles in all sorts of irrelevant ways, including navigational links that really aren't part of the story ec.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by Razengan on Monday November 18, 2019 @03:19PM (#21567766)
I've been noticing a distinctive decline in the relevancy of Google Search results for several years.

Google just doesn't seem to care about search anymore. Maybe they don't need to?

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by nickfromseattle on Monday November 18, 2019 @01:33PM (#21566815)
Google uses a metric called termination of search.

Did the user visit a page and cease searching for a given query? Great, the page answered the users question.

Did they visit a page, bounce, and keep on searching?

Well that page didn't answer the users query.

Maybe there has been an uptick in people googling "US ambassador Germany" and looking for news articles about Ukraine and the impeachment hearings.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by reificator on Monday November 18, 2019 @03:05PM (#21567640)
Great, so when I get fed up with Google results and give up, it compounds the problem further.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by MR4D on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:54AM (#21565259)
Interesting - DuckDuckGo gives similar results when you search from the news page.

Very weird.

[0] - https://duckduckgo.com/?q=US+ambassador+Germany&t=hx&iar=new...

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by shadowgovt on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:00AM (#21565326)
I would hypothesize that "us ambassador germany" is actually a hard query to suss out the meaning of ("Does the user want to know about the US ambassador to Germany? The German ambassador to the US? Some news snippet involving Germany, the US, and any ambassador?")
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by amelius on Monday November 18, 2019 @03:35PM (#21567897)
Perhaps the answer is simply that you have disabled user-tracking (either explicitly in Google's settings or by disabling cookies), so Google doesn't know how to serve you best, and you end up with the best possible answer for the "average" person.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by JohnFen on Monday November 18, 2019 @07:43PM (#21569748)
I've actually found that the search results get better when Google can't customize the search results for the particular user. It's still not great, though.

For a few years, I've been blaming the reduction in the quality of search results on this attempt to "know how to serve me best". I still think that's a huge part of the cause, but I'm not so sure it explains everything.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by nbanks on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:21PM (#21570627)
I switched my browser to use verbatim by default when doing google searches for a few months. It still came up with false positives like this.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by goatinaboat on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:52AM (#21565237)
the top results were all stories about Ukraine and the impeachment hearings

Given what we know about the political leanings of Google it is very hard to see that as anything other than an attempt to direct the narrative.

Even if it isn’t, it’s still unclear how an algorithm would make that jump from those keywords. A completely different country, for example.

Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by mintplant on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:34AM (#21565646)
It's completely clear. "Germany" gets dropped as there are overwhelmingly more recent stories about the "US ambassador" testifying at the impeachment hearings.
Re:Google search results have more human help than you think... by RonanTheGrey on Monday November 18, 2019 @04:56PM (#21568532)
Except, it isn't clear. The user didn't type the word "Germany" on accident.