The one thing I've noticed about folks taking these burnout sessions is that some absolutely take advantage of the system. Multiple people have told me firsthand that they're on burnout just because they want to be. Not because they're burned out. It goes so far that they lie during the mandatory therapy session provided by their employer in order to stay on burnout. Feels a bit unfair for the companies that have to buy burnout insurance.
Having said that, I think it's a great benefit of working for a Dutch company. Assuming you really have a burnout! If you don't have a burnout but you don't want to work so much then go 4 days a week. This is super common in the Netherlands.
Anyway, Dutch society in general really care about the well-being of their people. I suppose a few people taking advantage of the system is just the cost of living.
Maybe they’re just saying that to you because they assume (as an expat) that you don’t share their value system?
"Not wanting" to work is an attempt to weaken the position of the person who suffers from burnout, as it puts the responsibility of the problem solely on them which is inaccurate at best, and dishonest at worst.
Quoting Wikipedia:
> According to the World Health Organization (WHO), occupational burnout is a syndrome (group of symptoms that co-occur) linked to long-term, unresolved, work-related stress. [1]
> According to the current WHO classification (ICD-11), burnout can arise from unsuccessful management of chronic work-related stress, resulting in an occupational syndrome characterised such symptoms as "feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion; increased mental distance from one’s job, or feelings of negativism or cynicism related to one's job; and reduced professional efficacy." [1]
(Notice the URL's name is occupational burnout. There are other forms of burnout.)
I take it you're able to imagine that such is not always the sole responsibility of the employee but could also be co employees, work environment, management, employer, pressure, family, things such as breaking the law or "working around the law" while conscience takes its toll?
From my experience, I can say I've observed there are people who have not much clue about diseases such as burnout or depression or a disability such as autism unless they lived it themselves or put substantive effort (which takes a considerable amount of time and energy) into the issue (an example of such would be, thankfully, a doctor).
Burnout is more like desperately wanting to be able to work but a variety of things ruining your sleep, your concentration, your memory, and your health so that you can't.
That sounds accurate, because a report released just this week found that about a third of all Americans suffer burnout in their jobs[0]. At least the Dutch are doing something about it.
[0] https://www.studyfinds.org/the-new-normal-over-a-third-of-am...
Dutch newspaper: https://www.volkskrant.nl/de-gids/hoe-opgebrand-is-nederland... which cites : https://www.volksgezondheidenzorg.info/onderwerp/overspannen...
Note that having burn-out symptoms is not equal to 100% burn-out and unable to work.
Guess again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...
Netherlands is number 5.
Actually, I think there is some stigma but we are prohibited from discussing it publicly due to modern values. Burnout is bound to have some negative impact on career opportunities as one is unlikely to regain their status and responsibilities on return.
If you are apt to go missing for 6 months every other year for whatever reason, an employer wouldn't invest a lot of expensive training in you.
On the other hand, I have a feeling that most of the jobs here are proper bullshit jobs: from office jobs, where you'll find deluges of junior designers and copywriters and customer journey experts; to cafes, where 4 waiters are hardly doing the work of one; to supermarkets where there seem to be constantly more employees moving stuff around than customers.
Obviously there is a lot of money in the country. I wonder what will happen in case of a downturn: I have a feeling that if the money stops flowing, a lot of people will discover that their jobs weren't necessary at all.
I do agree there are way too many people doing "something in communication", and that waiters don't always work very streamlined, to say it politely.
Which does not work very well if you don't earn much. Expats who come to The Netherlands generally earn a lot. If you earn a lot, you'll easier work hard. It is much easier, as your downtime (leisure time) involves less stress.
The whole system where you could work a while and then go "uitkering trekken" got on retour after it was indeed abused in the 70s/80s. It is extremely tricky to have a fair system without false positives and false negatives. Slowly but surely, the right wing governments have indeed drawn your narrative which hurt those who are in need.
> There seems zero social or professional stigma about it.
As my (Dutch) partner had a burnout, and I witnessed this first-hand, this statement quite frankly angers me. There absolutely is social stigma and professional stigma around burnout. Nobody, in fact, understood her. They all thought she "had to man up", including her best friends, her mother, her sister, etc.
You know what causes stress? Emotional overload from work. Working in the night instead of the day. Being bullied. Being poor (including inkomensnivellering).
The thing is, that in your country, when people fail they are just regarded as weak or "not trying hard enough" (queue American Dream). No empathy, whatsoever. Here it is called for what it is: burnout.
Not in the last place because they are highly subsidized by not having to pay any taxes over 30% of their salary. In return for that, they post not very insightful comments like this on HN.
Mocking people's mental issues in public literally costs lives. Hope the thread starter realizes that somewhere.
I worked in the Netherlands for 6 years as a start-up founder, as a management consultant to Dutch companies and the Dutch subsidiaries of international companies, and was on the management team of a business unit of one of the big Dutch banks during a major takeover.
I can compare that to my working experience in Australia, UK, and the US. I have also worked in France and New Zealand.
I love the Dutch way of life (it is the closest I have found in Europe to my native Australia) and I am nearly fluent in their language.
My partner, who is native Dutch, also had time off for burnout. In his case, following bullying by a partner at a top-tier US law firm.
So I understand the context, understand very well that some people have genuine reasons for stepping back from work, and also understand that accepting burnout too readily gives some people an easy way to simply have a paid holiday.
I am suggesting you are in no position to judge other people's problems as you are not a qualified healthcare psychologist. In denying other people's issues, you are creating a toxic environment in which some people will not ask for the help they need.
Also, your comment is utter nonsense when looking at the statistics. Sick leave in the Netherlands is below EU average [1] and the Netherlands have one of the lowest rates of burnout in Europe [2]. France has one of the highest rates.
[1]: https://gateway.euro.who.int/en/indicators/hfa_411-2700-abse... [2]: https://www.wilmarschaufeli.nl/publications/Schaufeli/500.pd...
How do you square that?
Another key difference in the Netherlands is that 84% of workers are covered by a collective bargaining agreement.
Workers coming together to make demands from Capital is the only way to achieve these working conditions.
Making a specific amount of hours or working hard doesn't cause burnout most of the time.
I still remember dealing with a real estate agent (known to usually be hustling in US) who wouldn't work weekends or after hours to have us visit a house we wanted to buy. Nonsense! :)
And I also know a lot of people who had burnouts - while working in conditions that seemed... very good and not stressful.
Yeah, it is always other people who seem to have great working conditions. It is strange that other people even get stress.
The book "Bullshit Jobs" sings a different narrative, and these are seemingly everywhere. Real estate agent, is one of these (FIRE sector).
The housing market there is so tight I would think they don't really need to ever chase a buyer.
Honestly, after working for 6 years in the Netherlands, I don't know of another country that has such good working conditions [1], while having so many people in low stress professional jobs taking time off for burnout. There seems zero social or professional stigma about it.
- In Australia, I knew of just one person, a teacher. There they called it a "nervous breakdown".
- In the UK, I struggle to think of any, after 9 years working here.
- In the Netherlands, probably 30% of my Dutch colleagues had had time off for burnout at some point in their career.
[1] At the Dutch bank I worked for, most of the Dutch staff worked 4 day weeks: take a 10% pay cut, have Fridays off, and nominally work an hour longer on the other 4 days. In practice, they still arrived late so they could drop their kids at school, left early for same reason, took a full hour for lunch, and most days everyone stopped for 30 minutes mid-morning because it was someone's birthday. Nearly the only people who worked full 5-day weeks were the expats.