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Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by jayd16 on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @05:50PM (#21457642)
Maybe this is my uninformed opinion but I think the state should own the poles at least. Pole real estate is a natural monopoly that we subsidize anyway and it empowers existing entities to stifle new competition. It also makes sense to me that such a thing should be tied to city planning.

In a perfect world power consumers and producers can just buy and sell into the marketplace as provided through the public lines. That's a long ways off because the grid just isn't that smart but maybe one day we'll get there.

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by rayiner on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @07:31AM (#21461820)
Maybe. But private companies own the poles and transmission grids in many countries. You don’t see these problems in the U.K., Spain, etc. (Or for that matter in Maryland, New York, or Illinois.)

People calling for nationalization are focusing on the wrong thing. For the reasons you mention, utilities need regulation. Both government ownership and rate regulated private monopolies are a model that works routinely around the world. The ownership structure therefore can’t be the reason for PG&E’s problems. The problem instead seems to be California. PG&E was heavily regulated by the CPUC the whole time. What was CPUC doing wrong that the regulators in Germany, Spain, not to mention other US states are doing right? Bigger picture, why is it California that seems to suffer from all of these problems? Among the worst schools in the country. Housing prices out of control. Massive failed investments in public infrastructure? Cities running out of water?

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by sangnoir on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:27PM (#21464729)
> You don’t see these problems in the U.K., Spain, etc. (Or for that matter in Maryland, New York, or Illinois.)

Because they don't have a PG&E in those places. Maybe the problem is with the culture at PG&E and not with the regulators? I can't figure out if your argument is that there wasn't enough regulation in California or there was too much of it.

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by vkou on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @05:58PM (#21457707)
The reason the state doesn't own the poles is that by allowing a private company to own them, the state doesn't have to finance their construction up-front.

The downside is that the taxpayers are now forever on the hook of paying shareholder dividends for electricity.

The best outcome in this whole situation is that PG&E is sued into bankruptcy and nationalized, leaving the shareholders with nothing. Owning a government-protected monopoly-utility that is bad at its job should not be a license to print money, regardless whether or not you ponied up some cash up front. Sometimes, you make bad investments.

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by nerfhammer on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @09:37PM (#21459230)
The CPUC (state regulators) already stipulate literally how much money PG&E is allowed to make, i.e. target profit margin. PG&E isn't state-owned but is largely not allowed to make its own decisions.

Especially since the CPUC is not widely understood, this structure allows elected officials to present themselves as not being responsible for the tradeoffs PG&E has to make, even as the CPUC actually makes those decisions for them.

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by AcerbicZero on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @06:49PM (#21458199)
I mean, you're probably right that having California "nationalize" (State-ilize?) their power company is the answer to this, but being as the political system is what created this problem, I'm not exactly convinced its going to solve it any better this time.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by dickeytk on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @08:08PM (#21458755)
I don’t see a reason in your response other than “the political system is bad”

I’d be more curious if you had a reason why you think state-owned would be worse than state-regulated.

To me it seems better for sure. A panacea? No, but better than where we’re at today

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by roenxi on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @05:53AM (#21461349)
The argument was that state owned could end up being the same as state regulated. The government are people too, they might also have made mistakes that caused catastrophic bushfires - instead of greedy and incompetent it would be lazy and incompetent. The dry bush is a significant part of the equation.

Just looking over the Wikipedia page [0] it appears PG&E has a guaranteed rate of profit and monopoly status over certain aspects of the infrastructure. The problem with governments owning businesses is that they don't respond to market signals in the form of profits. Under this regulation, PG&E is also buffered from needing to respond to market signals in the form of profits.

The intellectual justification for privatising anything is to expose it to the need to fight to make profits which then enforces a sort of discipline on resource use. Regulation that privatises a company then shields it from the need to try hard to succeed is pretty much strictly worse than nationalising.

That is a likely perspective from the sort of person who believes that the political system is bad.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Gas_and_Electric_Compa...

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by mensetmanusman on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:28AM (#21462269)
One questions is why other states near CA (with similar natural settings) haven’t had the same failure mode as CA? Is it just population density?
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by dickeytk on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:29AM (#21462896)
Ok so I’ve lived in these states my whole life and I love geography and know a little bit about this, apologize while I geek out a bit. (I’m also more interested in geography than meteorology per-se, so I’m only 90% confident all of this is right)

Oregon, Washington, and BC have bad fires too (not as bad, but bad nonetheless), but the rainy season comes much earlier. Here on the west coast you can set your watch to when the rainy season starts. Washington it starts within a couple weeks of early October, Oregon late October (I grew up there and never remember a dry Halloween, but it was also one of the first rains in months). California is so big it varies, but weatherman down here in the bay is saying mid-November at the earliest.

Low population in the forested areas is a factor, but less so. We just have fewer fires and they’re easier to fight.

There is also the type of trees, California is full of eucalyptus (arguably an invasive special from Australia) that constantly dumps debris in the form of oil rich bark and leaves and no natural insects are around to break it down.

Oregon and Washington don’t have that problem.

Arizona and Nevada have nothing to burn. The Nevada border is almost entirely huge mountains. It seems odd that 2 straight lines meeting at Lake Tahoe would be such a dramatic change from wet to dry, but it is. Arizona doesn’t look any different from south-East California, but that’s also probably the only part of California not affected by fires.

The Diablo/Santa Ana winds are also a big factor especially in Southern California. Those are ironically caused by the rainstorms in Oregon and Washington. The winds come in, full up the massive Great Basin of Nevada and Utah and eventually spill out over the mountains in California causing super, super dry and hot winds that can be the level of hurricanes. It’s this time of year when Oregon and Washington are getting rain and California is not that is especially precarious.

I’ve lived in both the Bay and LA for years now and I’ve actually never been awake for them. They only last a few hours and it seems only at night. I’ve seen the aftermath though, tons and tons of tree debris everywhere. In LA the palm trees even fall over and it looks like a war zone the next day.

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by scrumbledober on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @06:58PM (#21458289)
I've always struggled with using the term nationalization for state level control, but it is technically correct for any governmental control.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by wpietri on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @07:18PM (#21458451)
Why not? Public ownership of highways and water systems works well enough.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by rayiner on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @07:42AM (#21461891)
But it doesn’t! Our water systems are in shambles, with a trillion dollars in backlogged investments according to the ASCE. The problem is the same as PG&E. Political boards control water and electric rates, and they’re incentivized your set rates low at the cost of money for maintenance and upgrades.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by stickfigure on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @11:05PM (#21459635)
The residents of Flint, Michigan might disagree.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by labster on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @02:33AM (#21460469)
In California we don't let the political equivalents of script kiddies run our water system because it turns out water is super important in semi-arid climates. Too many stakeholders care too much about it. That causes its own problems, but at least we're not letting complete novices decide engineering problems.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by wpietri on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:49AM (#21463084)
One, that's exceptional, so it's a bad way to make policy. It's like saying, "Because Theranos, we should end capitalism." Two, Flint's water system ran fine until it was removed from local control and given to ideological white Republicans to run. Since this discussion is about shifting to local control from a state-scale entity, Flint may work better as an example for the change.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by dickeytk on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @08:03PM (#21458727)
Do they have to go bankrupt? Can’t the state just pass laws to force them to quit operating? Sort of like eminent domain (or maybe exactly?)

I’m sure they’d have to make reasonable payments to the shareholders, but it’s not like PG&E is in a very good bargaining position here

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by antisthenes on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @09:44PM (#21459262)
Quit operating?

Who's going to provide power to 16 million customers in California?

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by dickeytk on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @09:54PM (#21459326)
There is no need to be dense, of course I mean not straight away.

I’m just saying there is a path where the government can take over the utility that doesn’t require waiting until PG&E goes completely bankrupt.

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by Teknoman117 on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @06:17PM (#21457887)
This.

Nearly all of the situations we've found ourselves in, be it power, internet, water, etc. are because we allow companies to have local monopolies over distribution systems, because we don't want to pay for the infrastructure up front, or take loans out as a towns.

It's a lot easier as a politician to say that someone else will pay for something than to say that we as a municipality are going to issue 10 year bonds or something so that we can fund an infrastructure project. We then freak out 10 years down the line when we realize we're stuck with a bad system because we sold ourselves out.

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by SamReidHughes on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @06:13PM (#21457853)
Maybe the state could provide and control brush-clearing services that do what PG&E was supposed to be doing, and mandate their purchase. If some convicts can do fire-fighting, they could do this as well. Just spitballing here.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by nerfhammer on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @07:02PM (#21458321)
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by denkmoon on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @07:21PM (#21458466)
What a cop out! "Every situation is different". Yet in every situation, money is the lubricant needed to make changes and meet those fire protection needs.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by nerfhammer on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @10:47PM (#21459577)
It's essentially saying that local communities should decide how flammable they want to be
[dead]
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by snovv_crash on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:51AM (#21461615)
As a counterpoint, it is much easier to corrupt a few politicians than a majority of the population.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by calithrower on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @03:15AM (#21460609)
"The worst form of capitalism is one which bestows all of the benefit to the private sector while forcing all of the risk on the public sector." -- Adam Smith.

Over the past 50 years PG&E has made a game out of mis-managing the transmission infrastructure, selling it to the state, then buying it back at a discount.

California needs to own the entire utility and not just keep giving it un-warranted subsidies and gifts.

All PG&E executives should be imprisoned for the hundreds of people they have murdered in the past decade between their fires and the San Bruno explosion.

It is never in the best interest of the people to give critical public infrastructure to rent seeking flam-flam artists.

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by brobdingnagians on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:02AM (#21460814)
To my knowledge, in France, the national road systems are private (but weren't always) and charge massive tolls, but maintenance is paid for by contracts from the government. So all of the private owners of the roads also run sister companies that do maintenance. The government pays exorbitant prices to the companies to do maintenance for the roads that they then also make large amounts of toll from.

I'm not saying I fully support private roads or public roads, but the worst combination is a little bit of both...

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by ptah on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:27AM (#21462258)
"autoroutes belong to the French state and their administration to semi-private companies."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoroutes_of_France

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by Leherenn on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @01:13PM (#21465221)
To make it even worse, they were built using taxpayer's money, then sold for peanuts to those companies. It's corruption at an astronomical scale.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by kevingadd on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @06:18PM (#21457901)
An interesting related problem is that even if you set up your own solar or wind power on your property, PG&E charges fees and higher rates when connecting to the grid. Supposedly this is to fund important programs for low-income users or something, but you'd think you would save money by contributing to the grid.

If local municipalities or the state own the poles, you can have a better incentive system where homeowners hooking up well-maintained solar/wind to the grid helps keep the grid humming and lowers costs for everyone.

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by vkou on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @07:16PM (#21458438)
> but you'd think you would save money by contributing to the grid.

You actually don't.

When you are generating most of your own power during renewable generation peaks, and drawing power from the grid, during renewable lulls/peak usage, you are in fact using the grid as a giant, personal battery. (One that would run you in the order of ~$50,000, if you were to build one out for yourself.)

Electricity is relatively cheap, especially during peak renewable generation times. Maintaining the grid is what's expensive.

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by imtringued on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:45AM (#21461582)
I don't understand where you get your $50,000 figure from. You can get 8 Powerwalls for that price for a total of 108kWh of energy storage. I don't know what Americans are doing all day to consume 4500kWh per capita (residential energy usage) but even with such a high rate of energy consumption that setup has enough storage to keep running for days during a grid outage. I live alone and consume less than that so this system could keep the lights on for slightly more than 2 weeks. Buffering solar power with such a setup feels like a joke.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by eecc on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @07:55AM (#21461993)
That’s how it works in NL; the power grid is owned by a separate entity (I think a consortium, not sure whether regional or national.) The cable and fiber networks are also separate and - lo! Behold! - the water management company board is even an elected body!

And NL is the least “socialist” place I’ve even known

Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by rayiner on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:02AM (#21462066)
The Dutch electric grid is mostly privatize, both retail and energy production. A publicly owned company manages the high voltage production lines. (But publicly owned companies in Europe often behave very much like privately owned ones. For example, TenneT, the Dutch high voltage grid operator, has a subsidiary that manages part of the grid in Germany. It issues annual statements reporting profits: https://annualreport.tennet.eu/2018/annualreport/userfiles/p.... It just so happens that the Dutch government owns all the shares.)
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by eecc on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:16PM (#21468636)
Correct, indeed the local distribution grid is owned and operated by private companies but these are separate from the energy operators.
Re:California Mayors Join Campaign to Buy Out PG&E by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @05:59PM (#21457716)
Yeah, rending infrastructure and operational authority to 3rd parties seems like the best compromise IMO.

You can not renew contracts when service is not satisfactory and any lawsuits are on the operator, not the taxpayer.