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Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by pwthornton on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:04PM (#21380342)
This is big time for America. If our biggest city can’t show leadership on pedestrian and bicyclist safety, we can’t expect any other city to as well.

New York is really lagging behind where it should be. Despite being by far the biggest American city, it is overrun with cars. Protected bike lanes, street improvements to make crossing the street safer, and dedicated bus lanes will improve the city for all New Yorkers. If these changes take off in New York, they will trickle down to the rest of American cities.

New York is marveled at for being such a safe big city from the standpoint of crime, but when you factor in all of the carnage caused by cars, it’s a lot less safe than you might think.

Violent crime has been falling across the country, but pedestrian and bicyclist deaths have been surging. This is a sign of some very bad policy making. Walking should be one of the safest and healthiest things a person can do.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by bravoetch on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:53PM (#21380901)
No. NYC isn't some reference point for what other cities should do. Making a city bike friendly is available to all cities, and has been for decades. There's no trickle down bike policy, as other cities in the US are already showing.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by jacobreg on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:00PM (#21380970)
It's not ridiculous to say the urbanest area should try to set an example for other urban areas
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by situational87 on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:59PM (#21382670)
NYC is kind of a joke in urban planning circles, they have a lot of crazy ideas and have executed on approximately one of them in 20 years.

Many other cities are heads and shoulders ahead when it comes to rolling out proper separated bike lanes. Nobody is looking to NYC for leadership on anything in this field.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by cylinder on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:07PM (#21383969)
Soon you will be able to ride continuously around Manhattan on top of scaffolding. Problem solved!
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by edmundsauto on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:02PM (#21380998)
NYC faces problems at a scale that make it much more difficult to get done than in a lot of cities. It's not ridiculous to suggest they try, but it also doesn't naturally follow: NYC and Des Moines are not solving the same problem.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by bravoetch on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:00PM (#21381609)
"It's not ridiculous to say the urbanest area should try to set an example for other urban areas" - yet, OP says if NYC can't set an example then we can't expect other cities to have good examples either. That's false. We can expect good examples everywhere no matter what NYC does.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by objektif on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:33PM (#21381345)
Why muct we accomodate the needs of bikers? Why do they hold a special place? Can we instead invest in subway?
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by TulliusCicero on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:10PM (#21381707)
How is it a special place to expect decent infrastructure, when NYC of all places has it for driving, walking and public transit?

The cumulative investment in each of those has gotta be 100x as much as for biking, and you're accusing bikes of getting special treatment?

For the cost of a mile of new subway, you could probably coat most of NYC's arterials with protected bike lanes across the whole damn city. Not that I'm opposed to subways, but bike infrastructure is extremely cost-effective, redirecting money away from it is ridiculous.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by asteli on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:39PM (#21381396)
This is about transit safety. Cyclists are in a lot more danger than pedestrians, because unlike peds, they don't have special infrastructure set aside from them for the most part.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by stefs on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:22PM (#21382851)
Why must we accomodate the needs of drivers? Why do they hold a special place? Can we instead invest in bike infrastructure?

So, here's my personal opinion. For the record, i live in a bike-friendly mid-sized central-european city, do own a car, walk a lot (if the bike is not an option) and use public transport - but whenever possible, i use my bike. For me it's the superior mode of transportation. It's the cheapest option after walking, healthy, fun, efficient and for 90% of my day-to-day transportation needs it's also the fastest option. The overhead of finding a parking spot (twice) is mostly nil and there are pretty much no bike traffic jams. I shop every day and carry the groceries in my backpack (upside: fresh produce every day, don't need as much storage space). Car usage is mostly limited to longer distances (i.e. visiting relatives) and transporting unwieldly stuff - i wouldn't even own one if i hadn't gotten this one for free. The same applies to pretty much all of my friends. If the infrastructure is there, they all prefer riding a bike.

That said, as a young adult (early twenties), my car was part of my male identity. All of my friends believed they were good drivers and could be promising race drivers if they wanted. That's all gone now; my car is not a status symbol anymore, but a utility. And i don't respect someone just because they drive a fast car, that usually just means they were willing to invest a bigger share of their income in that particular hobby. My previous car had 60hp and that was plenty enough for my needs. Cars never made me really happy; they meant long commutes, road rage due to other bad drivers and congestion and terrifyingly dangerous situations aplenty, even though i'm a careful driver.

So, back to the discussion. In my opinion, the biggest problems for cyclists are:

1. Infrastructure: It's not that we're unjustly taking away from the drivers to give to the cyclists - cyclists have been neglected for decades and what happens now is just that they get a little bit of what should have been theirs from the beginning. Cars take a bigger share than they deserve. There was a time where cars weren't welcome in the cities too, i took a huge marketing campaign and lobbyists to change that.

2. Infrastructure: bike lanes mostly suck, because they're crammed into existing spaces that were planned for cars and pedestrians; spaces where they just don't really fit. They're often too narrow, of disastrous quality (ever wonder why road bike cyclists without shock absorbers prefer the road even if there are bike lanes present? That's even legal around here!) and sometimes feature unnecessary stops that could have been avoided if the street had been planned with cyclists from the start.

3. Drivers: some drivers hate cyclists for no apparent reason. Luckily, this is not a huge problem here as almost everyone spends time on a bike, but the stories i have to read on reddit ... some cyclists are probably victims of carelessly attempted manslaughter (i.e. drivers throwing full cans at cyclists).

4. Storage: bike theft is a rampant problem almost anywhere (for several reasons, afaik there's no easy solution). You really shouldn't leave your bike outside overnight if it's worth anything (disregarding rust as this is a problem for cars too). But secure bike storage options are pretty rare if you don't happen to have the option of storing it in your flat.

You should try riding a bike. It's fun, it's healthy and you'll mature as automobile driver as you'll learn to get more perceptive. Don't get angry if you have to stay behind a cyclists for a couple of seconds until it's safe to overtake - you're actually losing only an neglectible amount of time. If you live in a city, try a bike commute; depending on the distance you might be faster than by car. In my case, due to traffic jams and searching for parking it'd probably have taken me three times as long to commute by car. My previous city has one of the best public transport systems in the world and still i was faster by bike).

And you should support biking, even if you drive a car: more people on bikes means less traffic, less congestion. Parking spots will probably be reduced, but there won't be as many car owners, so there's that - and you can easily fit 10 bikes on a single car parking spot. Less pollution, less noise, healthier people are probably reducing costs on public health care, but i don't know how true that'd be for the U.S. with a privatized system. Old people on e-bikes means fewer old people driving their cars at half the allowed speed.

Really

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by a13n on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:28PM (#21382888)
They're literally dying and you think the solution should be "don't bike"?
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by objektif on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:02PM (#21383954)
That is a strange way to look at it. Question I am asking is not whether biking should be made safer instead I am asking why biking should be considered a form of transportation at all that needs to be funded by taxpayers? This is a serious question try to answer without getting emotional. Should we have another lane for skaters? How about hand walkers?
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by sirsar on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:33PM (#21384067)
Cycling is the most energy efficient mode of transportation, ever. More than walking, more than skating, more than motorcycles, more than gliding birds, and yes, more than the subway.

That on top of its health benefits, relative safety to those hit by bikes, its traffic efficiency, parking space efficiency, benefit to retail...

You bring up taxpayers. It is far, far cheaper to subsidize a bike lane than a new subway tunnel. And the bike lane is open more hours of the year, with more entrances and exits, more interchanges to other lines, a shorter distance point-to-point, with drastically lower maintenance costs. Taxpayers should be rioting over the costs spent on trains and traffic relative to bikes.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by timwaagh on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @05:06AM (#21385245)
Just about every cyclist means a car taken off the road. they take maybe about one-sixth the roadspace of a car and that's not factoring in the additional distance heavy and slow-breaking cars need between them to drive safely at speed. which means each extra cyclists reduces congestion which helps drivers especially in congested cities. so it stands to reason it's net-positive to have more cyclists relative to drivers. subways also become more useful when decently fast last-mile options are available. having bikes on pedestrian lanes is unsafe and unattractive and having them on driveways is also unsafe and unattractive, so both of these options lead to less cyclists, more cars and hence a terrible driving experience.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by jueij9jk on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:02PM (#21382190)
This is being overly literal with the meaning.

Yes, of course, NYC and Omaha need a different model when it comes to implementation.

What’s shared is the public/political will to challenge the status quo.

Pointing out the differences that you are isn’t terribly insightful. Anyone with solid algebra and geometry skills can see the variables involved and shape of the problem are different.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by shaboi on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:32PM (#21381326)
Chicago has been doing a pretty good job of building out bike lanes. But it needs to be taken further still, and more quickly.

However, the initiative needs a more robust implementation, with more consideration of driver behavior and parking needs. This is evident as many delivery trucks, Ubers etc. park in the lane (albeit, with emergency blinkers on, but it's a moot measure regardless) and push bicyclists into traffic. So while the bike lanes probably improve safety and reduce deaths overall, it can and does introduce a new, very real hazard: the necessity of bicyclists to suddenly merge into traffic. And this abuse is pretty rampant.

The hanging fruit is simply implementing stiffer penalities for such violations but this seems lacking. Coupling this with more temporary parking zones might be a solution. Then again, I'm not a civil engineer, just my observations and half-baked thoughts concerning the matter.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by selectodude on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:21PM (#21381823)
Protected bike lanes implies a curb between the road and the lane. While a delivery truck could jump the curb, technically, it "curbs" a lot of that behavior.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by mumblemumble on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:21PM (#21382369)
In Chicago it's largely been implemented by placing the bike lane in between on-street parking and the sidewalk, with soft posts and paint separating the parking lane from the bike lane.

I've watched people put an impressive amount of effort into delicately navigating between those posts so that they can parallel park their car next to the curb. i.e., in the bike lane.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by bluejekyll on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:44PM (#21382988)
So more signage and education is needed?
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by javagram on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:34PM (#21383260)
Education probably doesn’t matter. Convenience will always trump education. What would work would be enforcement, if you’re fairly likely to get slammed with a $500 ticket for blocking the lane that will actually stop the behavior.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by lonelappde on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:01PM (#21383384)
Why do you think someone put so much effort into parking "conveniently" instead of misunderstanding what the post is for?
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by javagram on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @08:35AM (#21386395)
Driving in between two posts doesn’t seem that much effort to me (doesn’t seem harder than parallel parking for example). And I suspect many of them do understand what the flexposts are for, and just don’t care.

Drivers park in clearly signed bike lanes all the time, and when cyclists alert them to this fact they often respond with anger, not understanding or contrition. Common excuses are “I’ll just be a minute” or so on. It’s just part of how driving causes people to behave - I see the same thing with my apartment driveway which is regularly blocked by people parking illegally to go to the bank, rather than drive a few hundred feet and legally park in a garage.

Now, I’m sure there are some ignorant people out there, but the majority of people will just do what they can get away with regardless of what the law or the rule is. It’s like educating people to not text and drive. Just doesn’t work.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by mumblemumble on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:00AM (#21387231)
I don't know that driving brings out terribly different behavior on that front, it's more that cars are so big that they act as this inconvenience multiplier that allows one person to easily create a much bigger hassle or hazard for others than they could with their bare hands.

For example, I have plenty of run-ins with stepping out of a storefront and nearly getting creamed by a cyclist who's zooming down the sidewalk at 10mph, too. And it's frequently the cyclist who yells at me for failing to anticipate them barreling down the sidewalk illegally.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by javagram on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @11:46PM (#21394517)
Yeah, that’s fair. I think the other thing is with cars, parking is an issue in a way that it isn’t with a bike, so you end up having people park in the bike lane or on a sidewalk or in a driveway. If those spots aren’t available, they’d probably double park in the road too.

With a bike people wouldn’t just dump it on the sidewalk typically because they’d be worried about it being stolen (of course with the rentable scooters and dockless cycles, people do exactly that since they don’t have to worry about theft).

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by bobthepanda on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:56PM (#21383645)
Probably an actual curb would be best, since hitting a curb can damage your car. Or more closely spaced posts that you can‘t squeeze a car between.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by mumblemumble on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:18PM (#21382333)
Based on what I've seen in Chicago, it seems that the missing element is informing the public of the relevant laws.

To my knowledge, the rules covering bicycles and pedestrians have never been on Illinois's written test, they aren't necessarily covered in driver's (or other) education, and, since most motorists (and also, I'm guessing, cyclists) come from more suburban environments where there just aren't as many bikes and pedestrians on the roads, people simply don't know how they're supposed to behave on the streets. Which is a recipe for unnecessary chaos.

Case in point: About ten years back, when she was visiting, I had to tell my mom not to drive in a bike lane. She was surprised to hear that it was a bike lane; she though it was just a weirdly small shared-use lane with slightly confusing paint marks.

And no, while I appreciate the good intentions of whoever it is at the DOT who thinks composes these things, cute rhyming phrases in glowing amber letters over the freeway aren't going to cut it.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by ogre_codes on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:34PM (#21382485)
If cars are driving in bike lanes then it's not very good bike infrastructure. The best bike & pedestrian infrastructure is isolated from auto infrastructure as much as possible. Drivers take up every possible piece of real estate available and steal space from adjoining infrastructure when they can get away with it.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by mumblemumble on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:03PM (#21382711)
The best possible bike infrastructure is also very expensive to construct, and can't be built overnight. Given many major US cities' budget problems, I think that making the perfect the enemy of the good is probably a great way to doom ourselves to the worst.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by kansface on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:19PM (#21380503)
How popular is biking in New York - eg, do people bike in the winter?
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by crazygringo on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:30PM (#21380629)
A lot of biking isn't for your commute but rather a quick way to run an errand 5 avenues over using Citibike -- it's a 6 min ride instead of a 20 min walk.

For that, super common to bike even in the winter. After all, you're already bundled up and will probably stay warmer just because you'll be outside for less time.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by chadlavi on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:27PM (#21381277)
Lot of this. Most bikehsare rides in NYC are quick one-way jaunts like this.

Anecdotally, I know a lot of women who ride bikeshare bikes for the 5-6 blocks it takes them to get home from the subway in the early-sunset months as a safety precaution against sexual harassment.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by lonelappde on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:02PM (#21383390)
This must be a niche use case -- there aren't docks every 6 blocks or less
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by crazygringo on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:20PM (#21383744)
Of course there are! Just take a look:

https://member.citibikenyc.com/map/

I mean they're not evenly distributed according to a perfect pattern or anything, but there's generally a bike within an avenue and a few streets.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by philwelch on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:42PM (#21380768)
Also, biking itself keeps you warm. But I would be concerned about ground conditions.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by snazz on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:05PM (#21381037)
I was impressed with traction on the Citibike-style bicycles here in Minneapolis the last time I tried one in the snow. The tires aren’t so huge that they always stay on top, but they get pretty decent traction.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by SwellJoe on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:38PM (#21380719)
It'd be more popular if it were safer/easier. Which is true pretty much everywhere. Some of the places where biking is the most common also have quite harsh winters (e.g. Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, etc.).
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by rb808 on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:49PM (#21380858)
Netherlands and much Denmark aren't that cold in winter, many years it wont even snow. Further the summers are cool.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by SwellJoe on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:30PM (#21381307)
Not unlike New York City. But, how about Finland? They also ride bikes a lot more than most US cities, and Finland definitely has harsh winters.

Edit: As for summers, I've regularly biked in Texas throughout the summer over many years (I've lived without a car quite a bit in Austin). The peak of the day is rough, but the usual commuting hours aren't too bad. New York has nothing on Texas summers.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by felipemnoa on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:00PM (#21382678)
>>Not unlike New York City

Don't know why I find this double negative so disturbing. Seems so unnecessary.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by rb808 on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:49PM (#21381499)
I know AMS and NYC well, Finland - do people bike all winter? The snow is one thing, the icy roads and cold make it tough.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by kevin_thibedeau on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:11PM (#21382279)
Nokia's tire division makes studded bicycle tires. The problem bicycling on ice with these tires is the threat of cars sliding into you.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by SwellJoe on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:57PM (#21381581)
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by stefs on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:33PM (#21382918)
so i heard from friends, that the snow might actually a problem if you're outside a city; in some instances you'd be hard pressed to make it with a fat bike.

apart from that i guess you just have to ride carefully, but you the same applies to driving a car on icy roads.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by CydeWeys on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:04PM (#21381029)
It doesn't snow that often in NYC either. These past few winters it's only snowed a few times in any significant amount (i.e. actual accumulation on roadways; flurries or snow that doesn't stick doesn't count).
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by TulliusCicero on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:12PM (#21381740)
True. Oulu, Finland has a high biking rate despite its extreme northern latitude, though, and being quite cold like eight months of the year.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by simonsarris on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:49PM (#21380856)
Tons of winter biking in Montreal too.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by maximente on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:24PM (#21380569)
killer is summer imo, where 2-4 months are swamplike so any professional (attire wise) is bringing a change of clothes and/or showering

but it's nice 7-8 months out of the year!

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by bobthepanda on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:54PM (#21380916)
What‘s nice to help with that are e-bikes, so that you don‘t necessarily have to exert all that much energy.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by lonelappde on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:04PM (#21383396)
The city and subway is dirty and hot in general, so dressing at work is just smart.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by apaprocki on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:37PM (#21382947)
CitiBike data (if it could be used as a proxy) shows about half the number of daily rides in Jan as in the summer. That’s still > 40k rides a day.

https://www.citibikenyc.com/system-data

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by xxxtentachyon on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:43PM (#21380783)
I live and work in lower Manhattan (about a 15 minute commute each way by bike) and I will ride a Citi bike to work unless there are multiple inches of snow on the ground
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by CydeWeys on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:03PM (#21381009)
I bike to work year-round in NYC, and so do many other people. It doesn't actually snow that much, and when it does, it's generally cleared pretty quickly. One thing the city should do to be better on that front is buy some bike-lane-sized snow clearing machines; we currently only have truck-sized snow plows, so the streets are cleared better than the bike lanes.

The biggest problem I have with biking in the winter is when it gets brutally cold, which doesn't happen that often, hardly at all in the past few years. There was this one particularly horrible winter several years back when it was terribly cold for weeks on end, and that was rough.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by pedantsamaritan on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:36PM (#21383565)
May 2019's NYC Cycling in the City [0] provides some overview. About 12% of New Yorkers ride a bike several times per month (higher than I expected).

There are automated bike counters in certain places (e.g. bridge crossings), but I haven't been able to find the data for winter months. Citi bike data is probably a pretty good proxy, though. It's in the report I linked and in sibling from apaprocki

[0]: https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/cycling-in-the-c...

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by robbyt on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:23PM (#21380549)
Yes, biking in the winter isn't too bad, as long as there isn't precipitation. The winters here are fairly mild.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by ch4s3 on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:23PM (#21380553)
It's fairly popular, and many people bike at least some year round. Citibike is quite popular for short trips.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by rasz on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:28PM (#21389000)
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by OutsmartDan on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:31PM (#21380647)
If it's not snowing or raining, I'll bike in the winters. It's not too bad if you have the right gear to stay warm.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by Alex3917 on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:19PM (#21384021)
Depends whether you're looking at people using bikes for commuting, take out delivery, exercise, etc. Ostensibly 800,000 people are biking multiple times a month, but this can mean wildly different things. As a data point, the most popular bike path in the city (and country) has had 6,600 Strava users this year.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by datashow on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:36PM (#21380690)
"How popular is biking in New York"

You can have a sense of it by checking with Google Maps street view on different places in Manhattan. It seems that there are way more cars and pedestrians than bike riders in most places.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by bobthepanda on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:56PM (#21380934)
This is not a good measurement, because one person on a bike takes up much less space than one person in a car. (Average car occupancy in the US is around 1.5.)
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by jeromegv on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:13PM (#21381747)
Surely someone with a username that says "datashow" would think that this isn't the proper way to measure it.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by datashow on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:08PM (#21383688)
I said "have a sense of it".
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by fernyellow on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:02PM (#21381002)
lots of deliveries are made on high speed motorized bikes they go year round
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by TulliusCicero on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:43PM (#21380779)
I'm guessing right now, not very.

Cyclists will deal with bad weather or bad infrastructure, but not many will deal with both at the same time. The solution is good infrastructure.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by francisofascii on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:32PM (#21380658)
It is a factor of how safe it is. Weather is not the limiting factor.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by oh_sigh on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:57PM (#21380937)
I don't bike for fear of ice patches unless weather has been above freezing for a few days straight. I bike maybe 10% of days in winter and 90% in summer(from UWS to Chelsea via Hudson river bike paths)
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by wefarrell on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:37PM (#21380698)
I commute on my bike in NYC daily and I am far more terrified of pedestrians and other cyclists than I am of cars. Cars for the most part pay attention and obey traffic rules. Cyclists less so and pedestrians ignore rules entirely and frequently aren't even aware of cyclists.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by quartz on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:04PM (#21381019)
You're being irrational with that fear. Cyclists are basically never killed by other cyclists or pedestrians.

In fact, 5 of the last 8 years had zero pedestrian deaths due to collisions with cyclists. [1]

[1] https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/bikestats.shtm...

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by Alex3917 on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:56PM (#21382650)
The difference is that almost getting killed by a car happens only a few times per month, but having pedestrians step into the bike lane right in front of you without looking happens multiple times per day.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by jkingsbery on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:56PM (#21381568)
I have not dug into the data, but for whatever it's worth, cyclists completely ignore the Red Bicycle lights here in midtown. These are red lights that are even shaped like a bicycle, and when pedestrians are crossing in the other direction the bikes keep going.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by bobbylarrybobby on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:37PM (#21381364)
You do have to weigh the severity of death against the frequency of lesser injuries. Hippos are more likely to kill me than mice, but I'm much more worried about the mouse problem in my building than I am about hippos.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by gameswithgo on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:47PM (#21380837)
been a cyclist for a long time, know hundreds of cyclists, you are the first person I've heard say this. If you collide with a pedestrian or cyclist the likely result is an injury, with a car death becomes very likely. Statistics certainly back this up as the vast majority of cyclist deaths are due to vehicle collisons not bike-bike or bike-pedestrian collisions.

Are you literally "far more terrified" of pedestrians than cars, or are you looking for a way to appear clever and different than everyone?

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by yellowstuff on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:50PM (#21383342)
I bike for about 60 minutes in Manhattan most days. I'd guess that I have to slam on my brakes or swerve away from a pedestrian maybe 2-3 times per day on average, usually because they stepped into the bike lane from the sidewalk while looking down at their phones. It's so common it barely registers. While I am very aware of cars, they rarely do anything surprising besides occasionally opening a door into my lane. I've certainly never seen a car go from a dead stop to suddenly darting into my lane against the light, the way pedestrians do. So while I acknowledge that I'm much more likely to be killed by a car, I spend a lot time avoiding pedestrians.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by wefarrell on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:15PM (#21381760)
Do you cycle in Manhattan?
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by maaaats on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:03PM (#21381011)
It's just a fake "as an X" to try to make the arguments have more weight.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by WD-42 on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:47PM (#21380842)
Wait until you get hit by your first car. I guarantee the object of your fear will change to the car. It's not a pleasant experience.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by Elof on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:55PM (#21380929)
This. I’ve been hit 2x with major injuries, both times 100% the cars fault and one time I was in a very well identified bike lane. Cars are terrifying
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by wefarrell on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:23PM (#21381854)
I've been hit by cars at speed outside of the city and outside of Manhattan I absolutely fear them more.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by komali2 on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:00PM (#21380967)
Your experience is entirely the opposite of mine. Cars are not only usually unaware of me (despite me being lit up like a Christmas tree day or night), even if they do see me they'll just cut me off or even run me off the road if I'm in their way (and in violation of local law).

Pedestrians pose no threat to me unless I'm breaking the law, i.e. bicycling on the sidewalk, running a red, running a stoplight, etc.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by TulliusCicero on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:40PM (#21380750)
You're probably more likely to hit cyclists or pedestrians, but they're a lot less likely to kill you.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by randomfool on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:49PM (#21380859)
This makes absolutely no sense. Cars are much more deadly than cyclists and pedestrians.

If cars are so safe then just ride in the middle of the street. It's perfectly legal- bicycles are classified as moving vehicles.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by u801e on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:59PM (#21381600)
If you ride in the middle of the lane and follow the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, then it becomes much easier to predict what other vehicles drivers will do (vehicle type doesn't matter).

But if you want to follow pedestrian rules at vehicle speeds, then it's not going to work so well.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by CydeWeys on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:18PM (#21381167)
I've had several minor scraps with other cyclists, and some close calls with pedestrians. The injuries involved were so minor it's not even worth cataloguing them.

Cyclists are routinely killed by motor vehicles in NYC. It's not even close which one you should be more afraid of. The scariest thing in the world if you're a cyclist is a big truck. They are statistically most likely to kill cyclists. People on foot don't even come close.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by oh_sigh on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:53PM (#21380903)
I get angry at some pedestrians for behaving poorly but I'm not terrified of them. I'm terrified of cars, and even more so of trucks.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by acchow on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:43PM (#21381429)
Does someone know the name of this bias/fallacy?
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by mitchdoogle on Wednesday October 30, 2019 @11:10AM (#21398579)
Almost all comments in the comments section here are anecdotal. People are singling out this one because it goes against what most other cyclists are saying.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by guelo on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:43PM (#21380784)
I've never heard another cyclist express this sentiment. Most of us are scared of speeding cars grazing us or parked car doors suddenly opening up in front of us.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by mitchdoogle on Wednesday October 30, 2019 @11:17AM (#21398643)
The number of pedestrian and cyclists deaths by themselves cannot be used to signal worsening public policy. We have to know how the total number of cyclists and pedestrians has changed over time as well. I suspect that there are more people using bicycles and/or walking now than ever, with bike sharing, scooters, better public transportation, etc.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by unlinked_dll on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:16PM (#21380481)
not to go all "blame the victim" here, but one thing I noticed culturally in NYC is that traffic lights are a suggestion to pedestrians. If there isn't a car directly in front of them, they'll cross the street.

Compare to LA, where people tend to wait for the signal to cross pretty consistently. That said, LA still has horrible pedestrian death statistics so who knows how much that matters.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by crazygringo on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:33PM (#21380664)
Well NYC is a city for pedestrians primarily, and for drivers only secondarily. Vastly more people walk through a midtown Manhattan intersection than drive. So yes -- unless a car is immediately coming, you and everyone else will cross the street regardless of the signal. Cars are the minority in what is primarily a pedestrian zone, numerically.

LA is generally the opposite -- it's a city for drivers, not for pedestrians. So the norms are different.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by vonmoltke on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:10PM (#21382265)
I think is the issue is where this leaves cyclists, who are also supposed to obey signals and traffic direction restrictions.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by i_am_proteus on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:24PM (#21380576)
I commuted on foot in NYC for several years. The culture is generally for pedestrians to cross at intersections with no regard to the signal, but generally not to do so if it means oncoming traffic will have to brake.

Right turns at red lights are illegal in NYC, and most of the streets in the city are one-way, so for a pedestrian to cross the street against a signal with no oncoming traffic is reasonably safe.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by runarberg on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:23PM (#21380551)
If people don’t follow traffic signals it is the fault of the signals. That is, if everybody makes the same mistake, it is no individuals fault, but a fault in the system.

To give a more concrete example. Say a traffic light has a pedestrian light attached. It will only allow pedestrian crossings when it does not stop the flow of vehicular traffic (say every 3-5 min, and only for 20 seconds at a time). But it does so regardless of actual traffic (no cars are passing the intersection when many pedestrians arrive), you can’t really blame the pedestrians of ruling this system as stupid and opting not to follow it.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by fennecfoxen on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:38PM (#21380707)
> That is, if everybody makes the same mistake

Who says it's a mistake?

It has nothing to do with the signals and everything to do with the pedestrians. If you actually want people to respect the signals, place traffic police on every corner in Manhattan and issue jaywalking tickets to absolutely everyone, for months on end, and you'll see it. (You'll also see a backlash.)

Other than that, it's not happening.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by selectodude on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:23PM (#21381849)
Giuliani already tried that. People didn't respect the signals.

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/13/nyregion/with-higher-fine...

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by fennecfoxen on Thursday November 07, 2019 @09:05AM (#21473258)
Wasn't enough. You need to ticket someone every single time, or close to it. (The amount of the ticket hardly matters, it's the consistency.)

(You will notice this idea is unworkable due to excessive manpower requirements. It is undesirable for other reasons as well.)

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by k_ on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:38PM (#21380720)
No. I don't care if a security system is not highly efficient in letting everyone moving around. It's not the point anyway.

That's the kind of thinking that makes our roads so deadly. If a rule in particular seems really silly to you, file a complaint / suggest a change so that it takes more parameters into account but until it is changed, stick to it. Loose some seconds or even minutes, I don't really care. These security rules should be followed by everyone, and people with your line of thinking shouldn't be allowed to own a car.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by stefan_ on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:00PM (#21380973)
No, what makes our roads deadly is cars. Things with engines in them that can power a street of suburban homes. Never pedestrians.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by k_ on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:23PM (#21381848)
My comment applies to cars too (if not mainly to cars). I'm not blaming pedestrians (I realize it wasn't obvious at all), I'm blaming all that ignore rules on the road and make these safety rules even less efficient because of the unpredictability. (edit: though of course cars & other vehicules make it far more dangerous)

I'm not a fan of cars already, but people driving cars while following safety rules only when it suits them is what make them a lot more deadly imo.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by neves on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:10PM (#21381075)
Crosswalks are the sign. Pedestrians have preference and almost all the world cars must stop when there is a pedestrian in a crosswalk. There are places where people doesn't even take the eyes from their phone while stepping in a crosswalk.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by mieseratte on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:38PM (#21380713)
> you can’t really blame the pedestrians of ruling this system as stupid and opting not to follow it.

Sure I can, they have a shit culture with little regard for traffic signals. My city has the same problem. I'm the odd man out for waiting for a signal, and am mocked for it at times. Nothing wrong with the signals or timing as a pedestrian (as a cyclist that's another story), but people feel they are more important. That they're 15 - 90 seconds is worth more.

Similarly, had a man recklessly pass me in his vehicle while I was biking to work yesterday. He went fully into the oncoming well above the posted speed limit, and cut me off as I was turning from the forward-moving lane into the left-hand turning lane. All to get around me to a red light.

Some people feel their 15 seconds are more valuable than others safety. In the case of pedestrian jaywalking, that their safety isn't worth the inconvenience of using the nearest crosswalk.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by mFixman on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:01PM (#21380987)
This is literally blaming the victim.

Pedestrians aren't carrying a multi-tonne vehicle that can kill people. Traffic lights are for drivers, and it's drivers who should pay attention.

The first step to fixing traffic deaths is fixing the laws that make causing a traffic accident more affordable than paying attention on the road. Right now you can drive while using a cellphone and run over as many people as you want if your excuse is "they came out of nowhere".

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by esyir on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:58PM (#21382168)
If you walk when you have been assigned to walk, your risk of an accident goes down. Please do not wave your faux high ground around like an argument.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by mFixman on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:02PM (#21382695)
If you drive like you are assigned to drive, your risk of running over people goes down to 100%.

The responsibility of not killing people is on the drivers.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by RandallBrown on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:14PM (#21382299)
The system works amazingly well. In a couple years of walking through midtown, I only saw one person get hit by a car and they walked out from behind a food truck into traffic, nowhere near a crosswalk. The car couldn't have done anything about it.

When I first moved there I was annoyed by everyone ignoring the signals. Then I came to appreciate it as an efficient way of getting around the city. Pedestrians (and bikes and cars) all used the signals as general guidelines, but would go when it was safe, because otherwise you're never going to get anywhere.

I'm not saying that everyone everywhere should ignore traffic signals, but it seems to work well in New York City.

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by chaosbutters314 on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:58PM (#21382667)
This. NYers do not respect crosswalks, jaywalking or rules of the road. It is chaos. People walk wherever and drive wherever. It is chaos. I was shocked to see the contrast between NYC and Montreal in terms of respecting the rules of road
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by lonelappde on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:10PM (#21383426)
That's because the rules are unjust. The cars shouldn't be there, for the most part, and the ones that are there should be driving slowly and carefully and paying for the privilege of commandeering space.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by cylinder on Monday October 28, 2019 @11:13PM (#21383997)
It makes no sense for 30 pedestrians to stand at a crosswalk waiting so 7 people can drive their cars through an intersection.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by Wowfunhappy on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:34PM (#21381960)
The cars frequently treat them as suggestions too. And they seem to treat bike lines in a similar manner.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by downrightmike on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:55PM (#21380923)
Trickle down never works.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by iamalexm on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:06PM (#21380377)
The fact that they have outlawed and happily tweet about confiscating e-bikes is digusting. NYC has a long ways to go.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by nickles on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:08PM (#21380401)
> The fact that they have outlawed and happily tweet about confiscating e-bikes is digusting. NYC has a long ways to go.

e-bikes have been legal in NYC for 1.5 years [0]

[0] https://mashable.com/2018/04/04/electric-bicycle-nyc-ban-end...

Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by 120photo on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:45PM (#21380805)
Also many electric bike riders don't take the extra power into consideration when they speed down those bike lanes. I overheard a conversation at the office recently where the topic was the number of bike deaths this year (I work/live in Manhattan) and they did point out that many of those might actually be electric bike riders.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by CydeWeys on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:07PM (#21381053)
They're not. You can find the full details on each and every cyclist fatality in the city from news reports and such, and e-bikes are a small minority of deaths.
Re:After Spike in Deaths, New York to Get 250 Miles of Prote... by CydeWeys on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:06PM (#21381048)
It's more complicated than that. Pedal-assist e-bikes are now legal, but throttle-control e-bikes still aren't (although in theory they're supposed to be legalized soon). The latter constitutes the vast majority of e-bikes on the streets here.