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Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by brnt on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @07:27AM (#21333457)
As a Dutchman who's lived in a few places abroad, the cycling 'problem' is quite simple: it needs to be the norm. No helmet, because neither do you require them for pedestrians. You can cycle in all weather, just as you would walking (a hard mental one, my non-Dutch partner can't get over the idea cycling is for sunshine). Public space design must start with safe (no sharp turns, looking at you France!) and separate cycling lanes. Perhaps the fact that urban cycling infra is a much cheaper/efficient use of public land could be more emphasized. In urban areas, cycling is faster, and electric biking is expanding your reach a few times over. There are people who bike a 30km commute without breaking a sweat (see bike highways).

Sure, there will always be situations where it will be difficult, such as steep areas (electric bikes can do a lot here, as well as accepting a little sweating which is normal in NL) or heat that exceeds body temperatures which in turn makes expiration impossible (no easy solutions for this one). But that leaves most of the urban areas on this globe perfectly suitable for cycling, which would be in everybody's favor, and their own first and foremost.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by stronglikedan on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:30AM (#21334400)
> No helmet

While I don't think they should be required, I do think they should be worn. I've had a low-speed spill where the helmet saved my head considerably - I hit the pavement so hard my glasses were flattened out. You fall much faster, even at low speeds, and you fall much farther from a bike, than a pedestrian would fall.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Freak_NL on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:23AM (#21334899)
It's a matter of risk assessment. The chance of a healthy adult cycling in the Netherlands getting a head injury that would have been prevent by a helmet are so incredibly low, that making it a requirement would have a detrimental effect on the collective health of Dutch society due to slightly lower uptake in cycling.

For elderly and young children a helmet may make sense, due to the significantly higher risk of such injuries (due to reduced physical responses and inexperience). And for racing bicycles wearing a helmet is the norm.

A helmet can significantly reduce the impact of a fall, but the risk of that fall is so low that the measure becomes statistically meaningless. It is akin to always wearing a hard hat when you leave your home, because it would save you from serious brain injury if a brick fell on your head. Of course, bricks don't generally fall out of the sky, but you can never be too sure…

This doesn't mean that all safety measures are nonsense — having working lights and functioning brakes do reduce the chances of accidents. It is also tempting to compare the helmet to seatbelts in a car, but there the chance of needing them is simply much higher.

One well-researched source on the negative effects of bicycle helmets if made mandatory in the Netherlands (in Dutch): https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/fietshelmen-en-veiligheid...

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by ghaff on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:21PM (#21336161)
A lot of people get really dogmatic about safety gear in very specific ways.

I'm willing to bet that a lot of the same people who think that not wearing a bike helmet (and especially allowing a child not to wear one) should be a criminal offense would think the idea of having to wear a helmet driving is just silly.

The attitudes around helmets for downhill skiing have gone through a similar shift. It used to be that essentially no one except racers (and then snowboarders) wore helmets. Now, at least some people will chastise you if you don't.

And it's not just a US thing. Copenhagen and Amsterdam are both big bicycling cities but a fair number of people in Copenhagen do wear helmets and you don't see nearly as many of the bare headed young kids perched on top of the handlebars that you see in Amsterdam.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by CDSlice on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @02:14PM (#21337261)
> I'm willing to bet that a lot of the same people who think that not wearing a bike helmet (and especially allowing a child not to wear one) should be a criminal offense would think the idea of having to wear a helmet driving is just silly.

Although I don't think biking without a helmet should be a criminal offense for adults, I think the comparison with cars isn't quite right. We do require people to use safety equipment like seatbelts and airbags when riding in a car. A helmet probably won't do much for you in a car crash but can if you wreck your bicycle just like a seatbelt would be silly on a bike.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by NickBusey on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @07:08PM (#21340023)
I'm curious why you think a helmet wouldn't do much in a car crash, seeing as in any car race every driver is wearing a helmet.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by CDSlice on Thursday October 24, 2019 @12:08AM (#21341562)
I was talking about the kind of helmets bicyclists wear. The only thing a bicycle helmet would save you from in a car wreck is hitting your head against the windshield/dash which is what we have airbags and seatbelts for.

Also, race cars aren't really comparable to normal driving situations since they go much faster and have a different set of constraints than normal cars. The racing helmets, rollcages, and 5 point harnesses aren't really as necessary at 70mph as they are at 200mph

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by NickBusey on Thursday October 24, 2019 @10:17AM (#21344885)
> In 2013, 50,000 people suffered fatal brain injuries; 19 percent of those were due to car crashes. Among persons aged 5 to 24, motor vehicle crashes were the leading cause of death from fatal TBI (Traumatic brain injury). It’s likely that a good proportion of the 9,500 people might have been saved had they been wearing a helmet in the car.

https://www.treehugger.com/cars/why-all-cars-should-be-hi-vi...

https://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html

The data disagree with you.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by CDSlice on Thursday October 24, 2019 @03:37PM (#21348398)
Your first link has zero information to support that wearing a bicycle helmet would do any good, it only suggests it. Personally I doubt a bicycle helmet would do much good because they aren't designed to protect your head in such an energetic collusion. Your second link only says that motor vehicle wrecks are the cause of 20% of TBI related hospitalization. The word helmet doesn't appear in it at all.

So no, based off of your links I wouldn't say the data disagrees with me.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by grawprog on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:10PM (#21336659)
I think the terrain may play a part in it. As far as I know, the Netherlands is generally flat, where I live it's nothing but hills, people tend to wear helmets here, it's also the law, though I've never heard of it really being enforced. I've personally had a couple good falls going down hill where my helmet saved my head.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Freak_NL on Friday October 25, 2019 @02:55AM (#21352569)
It's a combination of terrain and high quality bicycle infrastructure. There are plenty of countries were even I as a Dutchman wouldn't cycle without a helmet.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by justin66 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:19AM (#21335515)
> The chance of a healthy adult cycling in the Netherlands getting a head injury that would have been prevent by a helmet are so incredibly low, that making it a requirement would have a detrimental effect on the collective health of Dutch society due to slightly lower uptake in cycling.

That's an easy thing to assert and a difficult thing to prove. I just assume the rules are the way they are because the Netherlands is a democracy and they want things that way, not because they're especially great at risk assessment (what population of people really is?).

I gather this is still a rather active topic of discussion and research in the Netherlands?

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/03/top-hat-bike-helmets-w...

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Kim_Bruning on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:19PM (#21336138)
Not a particularly active topic.

Combining your two sources suggests that making helmets mandatory would have a large negative effect on public health. (the downtick in injuries would be overshadowed by the reduction in biking)

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by justin66 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:48PM (#21337028)
I only offered one source, and the research it quotes suggests no such thing, so your comment seems a bit odd. The closest it comes to saying what you suggest, is not very close at all:

But a spokesman for the SWOV acknowledged that the protective head wear might be a hard sell in the Netherlands. ‘Helmets aren’t often worn in the Netherlands and we are aware of the arguments [that cycling could decrease if they were obligatory],’ he said.

I'm not invested in what happens in the Netherlands at all, but I wonder if a lot of people are just taking "the downtick in injuries would be overshadowed by the reduction in biking" for granted.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:10AM (#21335413)
In almost every other context in which risk of physical harm comes up the overwhelmingly dominant opinion is that forgoing any means of reducing that risk is a non-starter more or less regardless of cost. Anyone suggesting that risk and cost/benefit need to be assessed is received about as well as someone proclaiming god doesn't exist in the middle of a church circa 1500.

As a safety heretic I fully agree with you that people can make their own decisions on helmet use but why should cycling get special treatment here? On every other issue of physical safety the HN gods have ruled the other way.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by vkou on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:12PM (#21336059)
And yet, drivers and passengers of automobiles are not required to wear racing helmets, or five-point safety belts - nor are all cars factory-equipped with breathalyzer ignition interlocks - or speed governors which limit a vehicle's sustained maximum speed to 63 mph.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by marcoseliziario on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @06:56PM (#21339935)
This single thing, breathalyzer interlocks, probably would save a huge portion of the lives that would be saved by fully autonomous driving, but for a fraction of the cost, and basically right now. It could even be installed on existing cars, and probably insurance companies would help you cover the cost.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Vrondi on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:50AM (#21335852)
Such sanity simply doesn't exist in the over-protective culture of the USA.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by blacksmith_tb on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:19PM (#21336148)
There are no US states that require adults to wear bike helmets, though there are a dozen or so local laws that do[1]. So 'casual' cycling without a helmet should be an option for nearly anyone in the US.

1: https://helmets.org/mandator.htm

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Jedi72 on Thursday October 24, 2019 @03:55AM (#21342559)
In Texas even motorcyclists dont require helmets by law (insanity IMHO).
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by aidenn0 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:18AM (#21335500)
I live in a very mild clime, but still don't bike when it's rainy. What do you suggest gear-wise for bicycling in say 5-10C but wet? I have a 30 minute bicycle commute that I'd like to do more often. A typical waist-length jacket leaves most of my body wet, but a longer jacket is awkward to bike in. If it's over 10C, I can just wear shorts that don't absorb water, but under 10, it gets quite uncomfortable.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by adrianN on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:40AM (#21335748)
5-10C but wet is easy mode. Use a rain jacket, rain pants, and rain spats (optional). It's harder when it's warm and wet, as you can choose between getting wet from the rain, or sweating under your waterproof gear.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by aidenn0 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:31PM (#21336271)
Warm and wet is easy because I just change clothes at work. There's a shower at my office.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by brnt on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:16PM (#21336109)
Personally I use acceptance ;) Which I think is an important ingredient that most Dutch citizens learn as they start cycling to high school regardless of weather: it won't always be pleasant. In the rain I'll get wet, no biggy. At work I won't be the only one putting a coat and shoes on the heater to dry. Some discomfort is present in all modes of transport, this is the one I chose to put up with.

I also use a raincoat with cap and rain pants, which should fall over your shoes. However, I only use this in heavy rain, because with light rain I get wet anyway from my own sweat (wet rain gear usually does not breathe enough for me).

Then there is the rain radar [1], but is probably not available for your locale ;)

[1] https://buienradar.nl

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by aidenn0 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:38PM (#21336342)
Right, it was 19 miles to bike from my house to my HS, which is a bit far, and long enough that a bus was faster (though at least most of it was separated from automobile traffic).
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by bart_spoon on Thursday October 24, 2019 @01:59PM (#21347300)
Rain pants. I was a mormon missionary in northern Japan, and we rode mountain bikes everywhere, regardless of weather. Typhoons, blizzards, compacted ice and snow on the ground, all of it is actually quite easy to bike in. Assuming you already have a water proof jacket, about $30 is all you need to get some waterproof pants that can quickly be pulled over your actual pants and keeps you perfectly dry, and then removed at your destination.

Weather should really be one of the least concerns on anyone's list for cycling.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by throw0101a on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:47PM (#21336428)
I find that it's not actual rain that's the problem, but the risk of rain. I hardly every get wet on my commute, but if it says 60-70% chance of precipitation, then that may prevent some people.

I find it handy to simply have a pannier with my rain gear:

* https://www.rei.com/c/cycling-jackets

* https://www.rei.com/c/cycling-tights-and-pants

It's not heavy, though a bit bulky, and if it does actually start coming down, one can just pull over and put it over one's regular clothes. If you can, try to ensure that whatever over-gear you get says "breathable": wearing the equivalent of a garbage bag reduces comfort.

I personally wear the funny-looking cycle attire as well, but that's because I like to pedal hard to get some cardio (instead of going to the gym). If you pedal at a slower pace then you may not work up a sweat--at least not after ~2 weeks once you're in better shape.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by wool_gather on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:51AM (#21335863)
Cycling pants. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding waterproof pants to go with your jacket. There are some that fit over other clothes (which also provide a lot of insulation if it's cold) and some you wear as if they were regular pants. You can also get shoe covers.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by namibj on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:51PM (#21340938)
The German military has some literal pullover pant+jacket rain combo. It is quite robust woven nylon on the outside with PTFE membrane below (shielded from the inner garments with thin woven PET). You need gloves to prevent moisture wicking up, and might have to get creative around the face/hood/chin border, but otherwise this (I'd suggest a civil clone; the original seems to only exist in Flecktarn) should do the trick. And it's highly breathable.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by renjimen on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:38AM (#21335721)
Rain pants? Pretty standard here in Copenhagen. It helps if it's coldish, otherwise you either sweat more or cycle slower.

A change of shoes and socks can also be appreciated if it's tipping it down.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by jsinai on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:40AM (#21335079)
>In urban areas, cycling is faster, and electric biking is expanding your reach a few times over.

In Cambridge, UK, where I used to live it once took me quicker to ride to the same destination than a taxi. In fact it’s well known that cycling in Cambridge’s city centre is much faster than taking a car.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by EForEndeavour on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:19PM (#21336137)
Cycling is often the fastest choice in cities. This spring, Uber revealed that even walking is as fast or faster than ride-sharing in many urban centres: https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/22/uber-dat...
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by aqme28 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @02:07PM (#21337196)
I bike faster than cars easily in much of New York, and sometimes the subway as well.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by willis936 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:31AM (#21333870)
Are you suggesting that helmet not be the norm when riding bikes? Biking is more dangerous than walking, even if you did it on an isolated trail. Is looking cooler worth the increased risk of a traumatic brain injury? I’m okay with society thinking it isn’t.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by brnt on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:11AM (#21334242)
The point is to make cycling the norm. Adding items you need to wear or have (you could mandate a cycling license for instance) increases the barrier to entry and thus use. Moreover, helmets protect only for certain accidents, accidents which are some of the most uncommon.

The danger comes mostly from bad infra design and other heavier traffic (cars). Those can be addressed separately, and it turns out pretty well. Leading causes of bike-accidents are now cyclists being distracted by their phones and skipping red lights (common especially in large cities). Public awareness campaigns are addressing the former, law enforcement the latter.

You're right, strictly speaking wearing helmets is safer, and you are free to do so. But then again, 4 point safety belts in cars too (but we don't), driving slower (but we don't), not calling while driving/cycling (but we do) and so on. There's a balance between safety, practicality and getting people to their destinations, it seems helmets are simply far less impactful than other measures.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by chapium on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:18AM (#21334299)
Calling while cycling or driving are not equivalents. A vehicle is much more massive than a bike and to use a phone while accelerating is far more negligent. The chances of a cyclist accident harming someone other than themselves while on a phone are far lower than distracted driving accident.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by brnt on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:40AM (#21334498)
Sure, but 'phone-use' while cycling (thanks ;)) is the number two reason bikes cause lethal accidents for themselves or other bicycles, i.e. it's a big deal.

Source (in Dutch): https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/fietsers-voor-h...

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Freak_NL on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:26AM (#21334933)
Thankfully, using a smartphone while riding a bicycle is now illegal in the Netherlands (since this summer), but it will take a long time for people to stop regarding using their smartphone whatever they are doing as normal.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by chapium on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @03:19PM (#21337883)
I can't deny that both activities are bad.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by helen___keller on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:41AM (#21333953)
> looking cooler

I don't think it's about looking cooler, it's about barrier to entry.

It's like adding a 15 character requirement to passwords on your application and rotating them weekly. Most people will give up on your application before they even give it a try.

OPs point is that cities should make it a goal for biking to be safe regardless of if you have a helmet. I daresay biking without a helmet in Copenhagen is vastly safer than biking with a helmet in any city in the states.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by willis936 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:22AM (#21334334)
Biking isn’t safe enough to not wear a helmet just because there have been changes to make biking less likely to have an accident. If putting on a helmet is too much work then physically moving yourself to your destination is wayyy too much work. That is to say, it isn’t too much work and it isn’t a barrier to entry. At the very least citizens should appreciate the danger of biking without a helmet even if they choose to do it. Willing the problem away because biking is good on paper isn’t good enough.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by 99052882514569 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:34AM (#21334438)
Biking isn't completely safe. Do helmets really help all that much? Very questionable[0]. Wearing a helmet, for example, promotes less safe behaviour by both cyclists and by drivers around them.

The sense of safety a helmet gives you when you cycle is mostly a false one. Lack of cycling infrastructure is a far greater danger anyway. In countries with the best cyclist safety records, no one wears or owns bike helmets, like not figuratively 'no one', but literally, no one. Can't be a very significant standalone determinant of bike safety then, can it?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet#Effectiveness

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by willis936 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:28AM (#21334961)
From the re-analysis cited in the wikipedia article:

"Do bicycle helmets reduce the risk of injury to the head, face or neck? With respect to head injury, the answer is clearly yes, and the re-analysis of the meta-analysis reported by Attewell et al.(2001) in this paper has not changed this answer."

https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.aap.2012.12.003

If it's behavior that's being targeted by policies around helmets, then why would a more care-free attitude towards biking make it safer?

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by ogre_codes on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:36AM (#21335697)
It doesn't make cycling safer for the individual, it makes society safer and people healthier. Individually riding with a helmet is safer than riding while not wearing a helmet, but if everyone rides a bike without a helmet, fewer people die and people live longer because there are far fewer cars on the road.

Fewer people are driving cars which are much more lethal to non-drivers, so fewer people get killed. People are more active and live longer because of increased physical activity.

Making bikes more appealing/ easier to access by not requiring helmets makes people collectively safer and healthier.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by jacobparker on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:36AM (#21334453)
> Biking isn’t safe enough to not wear a helmet

Could you explain why you think that? That’s a pretty general statement. Are you imagining city biking here, or something more like racing in the country-side?

Some data about how this is dangerous could be convincing: https://youtu.be/Boi0XEm9-4E count the helmets.

Just to be clear, I’m not against helmets (I wear one, as is custom in my country).

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by rapnie on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:59AM (#21334679)
Great video! Demonstrates Dutch cycling culture really well. Thank you.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by willis936 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:45AM (#21334561)
No, I don’t have the data on hand or the time to hunt down studies that may well not exist. That shouldn’t keep people from knowing what they know. City biking regularly gets up to 15 mph. No I don’t have a citation. Falling over the handlebars is likely when coming to a sudden stop. Brain injuries are not going to be rare occurrences in such cases. No I don’t have a citation.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Freak_NL on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:32AM (#21334987)
> Falling over the handlebars is likely when coming to a sudden stop.

Only if you are riding a bicycle completely unsuitable for commuting or general urban use; like a mountain bike or racing bicycle.

Commonly used bicycles in Denmark and the Netherlands look like this:

https://omidbikes.nl/wp-content/uploads/mat-zwart-7.jpg

Note the handlebars and upright rider position that basically prevent going over the handlebars during an emergency stop. That kind of accident just doesn't happen here.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Kim_Bruning on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:26PM (#21336214)
I still prefer reverse-pedal brakes (terugtraprem).

Of course, even then, as a teenager I still managed to get myself into some interesting situations a couple of times. But never went over the handlebars :-P

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by wool_gather on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:57AM (#21335927)
Can you say whether you are yourself an active cyclist?
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by willis936 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:08PM (#21336632)
Yes I am. It’s nice for all the reasons people beat the drum about, but the biggest one for me is convenience. Driving and parking in a city is a nightmare. Biking is marginally slower than taking the bus and by comparison biking grants much more freedom. Frankly, I think it’s insane that anyone who regularly bikes would not wear a helmet. I push back so hard against this notion of not wearing a helmet because of how catastrophic a tiny incident can be.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by wool_gather on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @02:50PM (#21337610)
Thanks. I also bike for my day-to-day transport, and love it.

I go back and forth about the helmet issue personally. Though I've almost never not worn one.

My general feeling is that it's not much of a burden to me. And while the cases where it's actually going to help are narrower than most people think (especially people looking from the perspective of a car impact), it does improve the outcome in those cases quite a bit. So it's worthwhile.

If nothing else helmets are good places to mount lights, which are definitely an important safety measure! :)

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by helen___keller on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:54AM (#21334640)
I guess I can't disagree with you on that, because ultimately I agree bikers should wear helmets and if I biked I would wear a helmet. It's just that the infrastructure to protect from cars is vastly more important.

As a pedestrian who walks about 30m each way on my morning commute, it terrifies me that if a car strikes me at 31MPH I have a 50% chance of severe injury. At 42 MPH, it's a 50% chance of death ( https://aaafoundation.org/impact-speed-pedestrians-risk-seve... ). Atleast I have a separated sidewalk most of my commute, minus street crossings. I would never consider biking in my city because I have to be there on the street next to a bunch of cars.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by magduf on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:06AM (#21335368)
Cars are not the only reason to wear helmets. Simply falls are enough of a reason: you're not a pedestrian when you're on a bike, and you're susceptible to injuries that pedestrians simply are not, even if the bike is not moving. Standing/sitting on a mechanical contraption simply is not normal for the human body, and it's very easy to get your leg trapped in a way that you break it, or your ankle, or hit your head on a curb or the pavement. Don't forget, the roads that we cycle on are also not natural in any way, and our bodies were not evolved for them. Concrete and asphalt are hard, not like dirt, and hitting your head on it can cause severe injury or death, again even if the bike is not moving. Do people fall over on bikes? Not that often, but probably a lot more often than pedestrians do, and because of the bike getting in the way, you're more likely to hit your head on something.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by ogre_codes on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:46AM (#21335812)
You are not debating the same thing. Nobody is suggesting that riding without a helmet is as safe as riding without.

The lack of helmet laws makes me safer on my bike regardless of whether I wear a helmet or not because it means fewer people are driving cars. Cars are far more likely to injure/ kill me than a solo crash, adding barriers to getting people to adopt bikes makes cycling more dangerous. The more people on bikes, the more cars expect people on bikes, better bike infrastructure, and it makes people in cars more alert to the presence of cyclists.

We have a fairly popular bike-share program here. People can poke a few buttons on their phone and get access to a bike instantly. With a helmet law, that's not the case, they have to be prepared in advance. The presence and popularity of that bike share makes me safer. Removing several hundred motorists from the road every day in our city has a far bigger impact on cyclist safety than the presence/ absence of a helmet.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by magduf on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:31PM (#21336854)
I'm not advocating for mandatory helmet laws in that post, I'm just pointing out why you should wear a helmet on a bike, regardless of any laws. You, personally, will be safer with a helmet; it's a simple fact of physics. Sure, fewer cars means it's safer for cyclists, but you keep focusing on cars and ignoring other dangers with cycling: other cyclists, pedestrians, slippery/uneven roads, or just plain mistakes by the rider, all of which can result in a fall where your head contacts the ground.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by kevstev on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @04:31PM (#21338657)
Do you also wear boots, an armored jacket and pants? Gloves? I bike to work every day, and spent a good part of my childhood on a bike- mountain biking on trails in the woods.

I have had countless banged up knees, elbows, ankles and hands, but never had a head injury. I used to ride a motorcycle, and wore the full getup aside from pants, and I feel cyclists would be far more protected wearing a jacket and gloves.

Anecdotes aside- figures from the UK (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119262/) show that it takes 8000 years of cycling to produce a clinically severe head injury and 22000 years for one death. From that same source, roughly 1% of all head injuries admitted into hospitals are from cycling, and 60% are alcohol related. Yet people would find it ridiculous if you suggested they wear a drinking helmet.

The fixation on helmets really confuses me. Its not helped that a lot of it seems to be pushed by people who seem to use it as some kind of virtue-signaling issue. There is just such a focus on a fairly burdensome piece of equipment that in a small percentage of rides in which an incident occurs, and in a small percentage of those incidents, this piece of equipment may help reduce the severity of your injuries, while all other equipment is left out of the conversation.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by magduf on Thursday October 24, 2019 @10:43AM (#21345140)
>From that same source, roughly 1% of all head injuries admitted into hospitals are from cycling, and 60% are alcohol related.

This stat means absolutely nothing. It's coming from a place where not that many people cycle, the summary even says that cycling experienced a decline, so of course there's not going to be that many injuries from cycling when very few people are doing it. By contrast, British people drink a LOT, so of course they're going to have a lot of alcohol-related injuries. It's just like America: there's very little cycling, and a LOT of drinking and drunkenness, so it doesn't take any great intelligence to predict that there will be far more alcohol-related injuries than cycling-related ones.

And yes, maybe people there should wear drinking helmets, with the way people in those two countries love to get drunk so much.

>There is just such a focus on a fairly burdensome piece of equipment

"Burdensome"? Are you kidding me? Something that weighs a few ounces? I guess you think seatbelts are "burdensome" too.

And yes, I do wear gloves when cycling; they have pads to absorb vibration, and can be helpful if I fall and scrape my hands. They're far more "burdensome" than a helmet, since they take more time to put on (which still isn't very much).

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by kevstev on Thursday October 24, 2019 @05:55PM (#21349603)
I have to carry around a helmet- yes I find this burdensome. Real estate is hard to come by in NYC- and my commute requires a partial subway commute. When I rode a motorcycle to my job and had a cube I was annoyed by the MC helmet, but felt the risk tradeoff was worth it and could at least tuck it away. Now I am subject to the hideous open office trend, it would be a PITA. Its not the weight, its the volume, and the fact that I would have to redo my hair once I went anywhere, all to prevent an event that seems about as likely to me as winning the jackpot on a scratch off ticket. Seatbelts don't bother me at all, they are built in to the car.

Still my point about a drinking helmet stands- drinking is a dangerous activity- 60% of all hospital admissions for head injuries involve alcohol. Clearly we could reduce the severity and incidence of these injuries with helmets. It would be interesting to see how many "drinking years" it would take on average to get a head injury worthy of a hospital admission.

Driving is dangerous too- and in virtually any accident it seems likely your head is going to come into contact with something- even if it is an airbag, and the mv^2 is much higher- we could reduce the severity and incidence of head injuries if everyone wore a helmet, especially an NFL style helmet with a faceguard...

And you accept that wearing gloves is ok, but you don't wear a jacket- so you know you may fall, and possibly scrape along the ground a bit, but you don't wear a jacket that most motorcyclists consider to be basic standard gear.

Do you understand where I am going here? You assess risk a certain way and make tradeoffs in what you are willing to do to protect yourself, as do I. However, what your risk assessment has determined wearing a helmet as necessary and foolish not to, I see as just another unnecessary burden, choosing instead to wear armored gloves in winter, and accepting other risks. You may feel not wearing a helmet is something a fool does, but my years of riding have given me intuition (in other words, my developed common sense) that the head is highly unlikely to be injured, and statistics back me up on this.

If I did a lot of high speed road cycling, it would probably change things, but my rides around town where I top out cruising around 15mph and if I go down a hill hit 30 for a brief minute or two, its just not necessary or reasonably useful.

So wear your helmet, but I feel denigrating those that don't because your "common sense" tells you its necessary is misguided and somewhat ignorant.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by magduf on Friday October 25, 2019 @01:51PM (#21357467)
>I have to carry around a helmet- yes I find this burdensome.

Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of biking to work yet, but if I did, I'd be using a backpack for what I hope are obvious reasons. Any good backpack these days designed for cycling has a clip on it that attaches to your helmet so you don't have to carry it around. I even did this years ago in college when I biked to class; it wasn't a burden at all.

>And you accept that wearing gloves is ok, but you don't wear a jacket- so you know you may fall, and possibly scrape along the ground a bit, but you don't wear a jacket that most motorcyclists consider to be basic standard gear.

Jackets are incredibly hot. Bicycles don't go fast enough to mitigate this. Some skin scrapes are preferable to getting heatstroke.

>but my years of riding have given me intuition (in other words, my developed common sense) that the head is highly unlikely to be injured

The problem is, if your head is injured, it's either game-over or you suffer mental problems for the rest of your life. Other bodily injuries you can usually heal from. A broken leg? It sucks, but it heals. Skin scrapes? Not a big deal usually (not at bicycling speeds). Worst case you get a skin graft but that's not normal for cycling. But a concussion can leave permanent damage; the brain doesn't heal the way the rest of your body does. To make a computer analogy, I feel like you're talking about the relative risks to various computer parts, and equating potential damage to your laptop's screen to its hard drive. The screen isn't important, nor is the rest of the laptop: you can replace them at any time. But the hard drive is unreplaceable (going back to the last backup, which unfortunately we don't have for brains yet): if anything happens to the hard drive at all, you lose all your data and all your work, and you can't replace that.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by shkkmo on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:07PM (#21340359)
> From that same source, roughly 1% of all head injuries admitted into hospitals are from cycling, and 60% are alcohol related. Yet people would find it ridiculous if you suggested they wear a drinking helmet.

That is a hilarious and wonderful comparison. I'm gonna save that one for future discussion of helmets and safety.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by emanuensis on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @07:02PM (#21339984)
+1 gloves
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by ogre_codes on Thursday October 24, 2019 @12:36PM (#21346270)
> but you keep focusing on cars and ignoring other dangers with cycling: <

I ride bikes a lot, I rode 7 miles this morning on those "slippery/ uneven roads". Most of my friends ride bikes and we all know someone who has been seriously injured or killed by a car. If you eliminate cars bikes are extremely safe (for riders with reasonable hand/ eye coordination). The only injury type that comes remotely close to cars is mountain bike crashes or crashes while racing road bikes and those injuries are far less common and far less lethal than cars.

So yeah... I focus on cars, because they are by far the single biggest danger to cyclists.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by willis936 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:59AM (#21334683)
I agree that cities should make motions to make biking more mainstream. My city has very prevalent biking and there are many dedicated paths and roads were bikers are given equal right of way. It’s great. Helmets are mandatory and no one complains. Are there some that don’t bike because of this? Probably a few, but if that is the barrier, then I don’t think they’re treating biking the right way.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by rapnie on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:49AM (#21334029)
This is addressed in the article I referenced:

> David Roberts: The Dutch don’t wear bike helmets. How safe is it to ride a bike in the Netherlands?

> Chris Bruntlett: We — like you — live in a place where helmets have been mandated by law, because they’ve been accepted as a commonsense safety device, normal as a seatbelt. But the Dutch show that [for them], safety in infrastructure, safety in slowing cars, and safety in numbers are all far more important than safety in body armor.

> David Roberts: Yeah, the US approach seems to be to up-armor the cyclist so that cars don’t have to change.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Konnstann on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:27AM (#21334941)
I've biked for most of my life in the US, and while I agree cars are a bigger problem for cyclists than anything else, describing helmet use as "armor" against cars is ridiculous. I wear a helmet when on a bike because I've had my skull fractured falling off of a bike, with no cars in sight. A decent helmet costs what, $30?
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Kim_Bruning on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:30PM (#21336254)
An old rusty stations-fiets costs Eur 30, too. So then that helmet is looking a bit overpriced?
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Konnstann on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:05PM (#21336612)
You can find a crap helmet for $0, doesn't mean getting a known good product isn't worth paying for.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by jamil7 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:42AM (#21333961)
Downhill mountain biking or something similar maybe, casually cycling along a trail isn't really anymore likely to course traumatic brain injuries than jogging. Cars are the only reason cycling in a city is dangerous. Once you introduce helmets as a requirement you put cycling firmly into the category of some kind of risky sport, making it difficult for it to become a casual, normal thing that people do in everyday clothes, like driving a car. (I wear a helmet fwiw).
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by willis936 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:55AM (#21334087)
I disagree. Kinetic energy increases with the square of speed. Jogging at 6 mph is simply an order of magnitude less dangerous than biking at 20 mph. This isn’t a simple footnote. You make a mistake while jogging and you scrape a knee. You make a mistake while biking and you may have your mental faculties permanently reduced and lifelong personality issues that drive loved ones away. Barrier to entry isn’t worth arguing about. It’s simply the safety precautions that need to be taken.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by JibJabDab on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:10AM (#21334781)
20 mph is far, far faster than "casual biking". Most people can't maintain 20mph much less 12mph. You need to change your frame of mind to be more inclusive as it seems you're thinking of people decked out in biking shorts/jerseys with water bottles and all geared up. The context we are talking about here is not that kind of biking.

Also keep in mind, jogging can cause traumatic injuries. But I agree, biking does pose more risk as you have less control than being on your feet.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by magduf on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:09AM (#21335401)
>20 mph is far, far faster than "casual biking". Most people can't maintain 20mph much less 12mph.

Maybe if your country is flat as a pancake. If there's hills, then yes, people really can hit 20mph, even with casual bikes.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by brnt on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:29PM (#21336242)
You are perhaps confusing the sport of cycling with cycling-the-mode-of-transport. When I lived abroad, it seemed very difficult for people to understand the nuance, and difficult to see how missing the nuance was holding back bike-usage in commuting.

In NL, the average is ~20kph for muscle-powered bikes on bikes like [1]. Sports bikes like [2] are not usually used in commutes and considered as dangerous as scooters if used at speeds of 20mph. E-bikes legislation takes 25kph as the limit above which the cyclist is required to follow certain extra rules, and of course muscle-powered cyclist reaching that speed should perhaps also be legislated accordingly. The reason it isn't is difficulty of enforcement, but there are people advocating a maximum speed for bike infrastructure [3], at 25pkh.

[1] https://omidbikes.nl/wp-content/uploads/mat-zwart-7.jpg [2] https://s3-wielrennen-xjspucykgif.netdna-ssl.com/welke_wielr... [3] https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/een-maximum-snelheid-op-h...

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by jamil7 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:07AM (#21334198)
We're talking about a barrier to entry to casual cycling here, people commuting in work clothes are not going to be able to reach speeds of 20mph in a busy city, if they do it's up to them to decide whether or a not they should wear a helmet.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by willis936 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:17AM (#21334296)
Then there should be an enforced speed limit for cyclers not wearing helmets. There is a delicate balance between personal freedom and the greater good. Seatbelts do not protect anyone other than the person wearing it but societies have deemed making them mandatory is a good idea. Helmets have moved into the same category and I think they should stay there. The benefits of lower barrier to entry aren’t worth the increased, unnecessary risks.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by baumy on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:30AM (#21334975)
> The benefits of lower barrier to entry aren’t worth the increased, unnecessary risks.

Every study I've ever seen contradicts your statement here.

You are all over this thread making strong, sweeping claims about bike safety and your only supporting data point seems to be "KE = 1/2mv^2". But there are entire cities in Europe where biking with no helmet is the norm, lots of people do it every day, and serious accidents are all but unheard of - there are other comments on this post with citations to back that up. There is also evidence that getting more people out biking increases bike safety more than anything else [1], and requiring helmets for everyone at all times makes this very difficult to achieve.

Please stop passing off your gut feeling as fact, it is spreading misinformation and - though I know it seems counterintuitive - actually making biking less safe. To be clear, kinetic energy being proportional to the square of velocity is a fact, that fact's impact on real world bike safety is a much more complicated question.

Disclaimer for what it's worth - I've been biking to and from either work, school or social events about once a day for the past 11 years, and I almost always wear a helmet :)

[1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/02/24/the-mor...

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by willis936 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:41AM (#21335084)
Firstly, I am not making sweeping claims. I am making a very narrow, specific common sense claim. I have not seen a single paper that refutes the safety benefits of a rider wearing a helmet. Helmets reduce brain injuries. Does this need a citation?

Secondly, there are a lot more than two factors at play to make the "cyclists killed per billion of km of bicycle travel" number. Culturally bikes need to be accepted. I don't see how helmets preclude cultural adoption.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by baumy on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @02:29PM (#21337396)
I don't have a lot of faith in common sense, no matter whose it is. Especially when dealing with large numbers, large populations, diverse human behavior, common sense is rarely common and frequently wrong. So yes, a citation is needed.

> I don't see how helmets preclude cultural adoption.

Case in point. It seems completely common sense to me that helmets are a massive barrier to widespread adoption! Leaving aside the issues it introduces with bikeshare logistics, having an additional thing to keep track of and carry around and periodically replace (helmets can go bad!), here's something that I suspect you may not have considered: women! Whether it seems reasonable to you and me or not (and I'll be honest, it doesn't seem reasonable to me), the 2 reasons every woman I've ever asked gives for why they wouldn't want to use a bicycle to get around more are

1) sitting on the seat is awkward/uncomfortable when wearing a skirt or dress

2) helmets would ruin their hair

Requiring helmet wear makes cycling a nonstarter for a large chunk of 50% of the population (how I wish I had a citation for this! as far as I've been able to find, nobody has done any kind of survey that attempts to figure out if this is as widespread as I've observed personally). This alone makes me opposed to it, never mind the exaggerated claims of helmet efficacy

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by magduf on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:14PM (#21380461)
>1) sitting on the seat is awkward/uncomfortable when wearing a skirt or dress

Try watching a video of people in Copenhagen riding bikes. Women wear dresses and skirts there all the time while cycling. Same goes in Japan; women commonly wear dresses/skirts there and ride bikes.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by ghaff on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:30PM (#21336261)
You're also making the claim that bicyclists should be forced to wear helmets. That is what people are primarily disagreeing with.

And, yes, people are sometimes forced to take other steps that are primarily about their individual safety, such as wearing seat belts. I mostly disagree with those laws as well.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Aengeuad on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:22AM (#21334894)
Bicycles are not motorcycles, the risk for injury is not so much with speed but instead with collisions between other (primarily motor) vehicles and the types of surfaces cycled on i.e., pavement. There's also a significant socio-economic influence on injury rates, cycling in a city like Delphi with poor road infrastructure and worse general road safety is significantly more dangerous than cycling in any Dutch city with world class cycling infrastructure.

Helmets are obviously essential for reducing serious head injuries (although they're less effective than generally advertised[0]) and parents/individuals should strongly consider using them, but legislation should be focused on improving road safety through education, community outreach, and infrastructure design long before it starts to seriously restrict personal liberty and hampering adoption of better modes of transport. The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, France, Germany, etc, have all showed that you can have world class cycling cities without requiring helmet use.

>Seatbelts do not protect anyone other than the person wearing it but societies have deemed making them mandatory is a that good idea.

This is a dangerous misconception, unbelted rear passengers seriously increase the risk of fatal injuries for the driver and front passengers[1] and in general increase the overall amount of injuries, which should be obvious when you consider that unrestrained passengers essentially become ragdoll missiles in the event of a crash.

[0] https://sciencenordic.com/cars-and-traffic-cycling-denmark/b...

[1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/138037...

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by rapnie on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:17AM (#21334291)
> Barrier to entry isn’t worth arguing about. It’s simply the safety precautions that need to be taken.

It's both. Safety doesn't necessarily require helmets, as Netherlands and Danmark demonstrate. I imagine barrier to entry by requiring helmets would be a huge blow to bicycle culture here.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by Isinlor on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:42AM (#21333969)
You save more lives by making biking enjoyable and care-free. If you make biking difficult people will not bike.

Instead they will sit in a car and die from heart disease, obesity etc.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by fennecfoxen on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @07:47AM (#21333574)
> electric biking is expanding your reach a few times over.

Electric bikes are motorcycles, and I don't want vehicles with the speed and acceleration characteristics of a motorcycle in my bike lane, if you please.

postscript: my very concerns for my safety seem to be getting voted down a lot considering that our friend the Dutchman here has given a rather nice reply recognizing the substantive nature of this conflict

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by brnt on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @07:56AM (#21333629)
So in NL, this is tackled with a tiered classification, in which the lowest tier (<25kph) is a bike, middle tier (25-45kph) is classified scooter (under certain circumstances and in certain cities such as Amsterdam you must use the car lanes) and 45kph and up is indeed a motorcycle, which means helmet+suitable clothing and car-lane only (but not highways).

This is not ideal, as the (fast) electric bike is new, also in NL, and people will misanticipate them (which I've experienced first hand). You're right, mixing speeds is a bad idea. This will improve with better infra (wider cycling paths, bike highways) and getting used to this new vehicle. On the other hand, the problem is similar to the scooter, which also doesn't fit the car or bike class, so perhaps with time a new type of lane must be invented. Some cities/political parties in NL are thinking of lowering the car speed limit from 50 to 30 (in urban area), which will facilitate mixing in scooters and electric bikes with car traffic.

Another important fact is liability: heavier vehicles are more liable (weight makes responsible). So in any accident between, say, car and electric bike, the car will be at fault by default, unless there is proof to the contrary. This leads to more cautious driving.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by openfuture on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:24AM (#21333822)
It should be classified by acceleration not velocity.

Weight and velocity are also important (potential energy which could cause harm) but acceleration is the right way to sort things into lanes, there can also be an energy constraint for the lane but acceleration is about being able to anticipate the behavior of something so that you can avoid the accident in the first place.

Electric bikes can accelerate fast and the user will also not care as much about stopping (and losing hard won inertia) this could invalidate some expectation and cause an accident.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by brnt on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:43AM (#21333983)
Well, acceleration may be non-linear (bikes accelerate 0-10 faster than anything else, which is why sometimes in NL bikes may wait in front of cars before stoplights[1]). Top-speed and weight are also important factors in whether or not it would be smart to mix. However, this results in a matrix of separated lanes that is impractical ;)

Finding a good compromise (such as [1]) I think is a better idea. Lowering car speeds such that we can mix is a good one, as well as the introduction of speed limits on cycling paths [2], which would force certain bikes to slow down.

[1] https://gratistheorie.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/opgeblaz... [2] https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/een-maximum-snelheid-op-h...

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by gpm on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:42AM (#21334531)
> bikes accelerate 0-10 faster than anything else

As a cyclist, I don't believe this claim for a second.

When a car starts moving at the same time as me, it's faster than me from the start. Which makes sense, it has more horse power per unit mass.

Often I do start moving first, because I think I'm less likely to get right hooked if I do so. But that's a result of paying attention and having my for on the "accelerator" waiting to go. (Also maybe a tiny bit of lag for a car to get into gear, but that's not substantial).

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by kalenx on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:06PM (#21335988)
The relevant metric is the torque at low (or 0) RPM, not the (horse) power.

I do agree that a good electric car may start faster than a cyclist, however.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by clarry on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:12AM (#21342617)
Dunno, my ICE idles at 900 RPM and I tend to give it a bit of gas as I start going. I don't think my feet could put out anywhere near as much torque.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by jamil7 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:48AM (#21334018)
I cycled through Rotterdam recently, bikepacking to the UK. I found the scooters in the bikelanes to be massively unsettling. I've cycled all over the place and honestly found riding with the cars to be preferable, at least I'm used to being amongst them.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by brnt on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:24AM (#21334349)
I agree, as do many cyclists. Recently the city of Amsterdam enacted a law that forces them out of cycling lanes [1]. Like I wrote in another post, scooters and electric bikes don't really fit the usual modes of cycling or motorized (car) traffic, and are something in between. Adding a mode to all infra is however a large undertaking, would add a fourth mode, which is why some want to lower car speed limits in order to facilitate mixing in higher speed bicycles/scooters into car traffic.

[1] https://www.amsterdam.nl/snorfiets-rijbaan/

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by jamil7 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @09:27AM (#21334377)
Interesting! thanks for the link.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by carapace on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:31PM (#21336272)
Electric bikes are not motorcycles. However, you're right that they're different from non-motorized bikes. And I agree with you that they can cause issues.

I got a eBike (Bionix brand, it's been great!) when I was commuting across town and got sick of riding the bus (these days there's always somebody watching TV on their phone without headphones. It was just a matter of time until I lost it and slapped one out of someone's hand, and I really don't want to be that guy on the bus, y'know? So I bought an eBike.)

I'm a very defensive cyclist and one of the first rules I made up for myself is, "Do NOT use the acceleration boost to catch changing traffic signals." I saw that people (drivers, pedestrians, and other cyclists) around me mis-estimated my trajectory due to the artificial acceleration.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by fennecfoxen on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @05:38PM (#21339286)
If you Google image search for "early motorcycle" most things will look a lot like an ordinary bicycles. Some versions of the 1903 Peugeot, for instance, had pedals on a crank, and even those that didn't were pretty slender:

https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/peugeot-1903/Peugeot-190...

The fact that your bicycle has an electric motor and remains somewhat slim doesn't change this fact.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by magduf on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:36PM (#21382940)
This is a silly argument. Do a Google image search for "cars in the 1800s" or something like that, and you're going to see "cars" that have tillers instead of steering wheels, and resemble horse carriages much more than modern cars. This doesn't mean horse carriages or motorized carts or golf carts qualify as "cars" in 2019.
Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by carapace on Friday October 25, 2019 @01:17PM (#21357116)
I upvoted you for technical correctness, but I'm still convinced that, as rhetoric, your point fails.

Calling an eBike a motorcycle in 2019 is over-exaggeration, IMO, FWIW.

But, again, I do agree with you that powered bikes are not the same as human-power-only bikes.

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by rapnie on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:02AM (#21333664)
In the Netherlands there's a distinction between hi-speed e-bikes (45kph) and regular ones (many speed-limited to 25kph).

The latter count as bicycles and the former as mopeds which are very often not allowed in bycicle lanes and have other rules to comply with.

Details: https://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/netherlands-new...

Edit: See brnt's comment that explains it better

Re:We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes by gbrown on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @08:14AM (#21333749)
There is a huge range of electric bike products. When I'm old and have difficulty tackling the big hills in my area, I fully intend to get an e-bike just to give me a boost in those spots.