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Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by Zak on Friday October 04, 2019 @05:11PM (#21161943)
As a long-time desktop Linux user, I don't quite agree with this. The default for me long before iOS existed was to install software from my distribution's repository. Sideloading software not included in the repository was often a technically onerous process, to be repeated manually in case of updates. I had pity for users of Mac OS and Windows who had no access to such convenience.

I don't think having a managed system for installing software is a bad thing at all, though I'm disappointed the big ones don't support third-party repositories. I do think there should always be an option to do it manually.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by koolba on Friday October 04, 2019 @08:51PM (#21163132)
The huge difference is that you can update or add package repos to get the best of all worlds.

Load whatever you want, from wherever you trust, whenever you want.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by jrockway on Friday October 04, 2019 @09:13PM (#21163206)
I might be scarred for life as a long time Debian Testing user, but I found that this worked approximately never. There was always some sort of dependency that was only in Unstable, and installing that would cause libc to need to be upgraded, and then your entire system broke. Even if it wasn't that severe, it probably didn't work. Windows, Mac, and iPhone users certainly don't have the problem where if they install FooUtility, it causes their computer to not boot anymore. (Unless FooUtility is malware, of course, which I didn't get a lot of installing out of Debian's repositories. Except of course that weak keygen bug... Hmm.)

(Of course, the underlying problem is that shared libraries are actually a bad idea. They were a hack for days when storage and memory was very expensive. But for some reason, Linux still uses them. New languages just compile everything into a statically linked binary, which is wonderful. I can write a Go program on my Windows machine, and with one command, compile it for a Raspberry Pi. Copy it over and it just works. Snap is also a thing that appears to work well.)

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by coryrc on Friday October 04, 2019 @10:13PM (#21163411)
I used to use Testing and that's your problem, not the idea of repos. Both Stable and, ironically, Unstable have far fewer hiccups than Testing.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by pizza234 on Saturday October 05, 2019 @06:25AM (#21164765)
I'm a long time Ubuntu PPAs user and they work like expected, for precise reasons (the parent makes a generic consideration about 3rd party repos, so I introduce the discussion with Ubuntu).

PPAs build in environments matching the chosen distributions, so as long as the builds are properly setup and the user chooses the correct one (which is automatic, with the standard tools), dependencies will work out as expected.

The last time I had a discussion about perceivedly broken PPAs with somebody on HN, it turns out that he was abusing this system, by not using the proper suite (distribution).

I'm not sure how this works for Debian (I think PPAs also allow Debian suites), but if there isn't such [widespread] support for 3rd party repositories, then this subject should get more consideration.

Regarding shared libraries, if they wouldn't exist, operating systems would would take an order of magnitude more in space. I'm not a big fan of an 80 GB Ubuntu; if the public accepts that, that's fine, but shared libraries have a specific purpose.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by journalctl on Saturday October 05, 2019 @02:40AM (#21164149)
I think the point is less about repositories and more about how desktop operating systems let you install any software you want, be it via package managers, Makefiles, or random binaries you get via torrent.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by kevin_thibedeau on Friday October 04, 2019 @10:56PM (#21163561)
Install your custom stuff into /usr/local and never let the system package manager know about it. GNU Stow can manage self compiled binaries with ease.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by nine_k on Friday October 04, 2019 @09:58PM (#21163354)
You can package software on Linux with specific libraries: see Flatpak and Snap.

You can manage multiple versions of shard libraries as needed by different applications: see Nix.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by noisem4ker on Saturday October 05, 2019 @09:00AM (#21165253)
Nix's is such an obvious and elegant solution to me that I wonder how it hasn't got much more traction.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by psanford on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:49PM (#21166892)
I suspect a big part of it is people don't want to learn a subset of haskell to in order to effectively use their package manager.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by brian_herman on Friday October 04, 2019 @10:18PM (#21163438)
Yeah, debian nowadays is much better you should try sid or buster.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by kop316 on Friday October 04, 2019 @05:24PM (#21162037)
However, the repository was for convenience. Nothing stops you from adding a new repository to install new apps. You simple have no choice with iOS on that front.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by Zak on Friday October 04, 2019 @05:32PM (#21162094)
You have some choice on Android though, through both sideloading and using third-party app stores like F-droid.

I have a problem with iOS not allowing sideloading in a way that's viable for most applications, but I don't see having a default, managed system for installing software as a problem in itself.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by kop316 on Friday October 04, 2019 @05:37PM (#21162125)
Ohh I agree with Android. I just use AOSP and f-droid, and it works great
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by bradknowles on Friday October 04, 2019 @05:29PM (#21162074)
There is another choice for iOS -- register as a developer, and build and install the software yourself.

There's even a third party that is automating much of this process, because this is a hole that Apple will have a hard time closing.

The AltStore does not require a jailbreak: https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/26/altstore-alternative-ios...

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by TaylorAlexander on Friday October 04, 2019 @06:36PM (#21162470)
Doesn’t this require the person building the code to own a Mac, a potentially expensive computer? Also I recall that years ago there was a $100 fee to register as an iOS developer, though I’ve no idea if that continues to be the case.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by Wowfunhappy on Friday October 04, 2019 @06:49PM (#21162535)
Yes, it still costs $100 per year, or else your apps expire after seven days and you can only have three (AltStore hacks notwithstanding—those will get closed soon I’m sure).

There are ways to sign apps without a Mac/xCode, namely Cydia Impactor. But Apple has very purposefully made this impractical for every day use.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by fernandotakai on Friday October 04, 2019 @06:57PM (#21162583)
and the cost of a macbook. for some people, it's a given.

but if you live in a 3rd world country, a macbook can cost as much as a car. it's just not viable.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by matwood on Saturday October 05, 2019 @08:36AM (#21165159)
> but if you live in a 3rd world country, a macbook can cost as much as a car. it's just not viable.

Not to be glib, but if a person can't afford a used/low end Mac how can they afford an iPhone?

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by TaylorAlexander on Saturday October 05, 2019 @11:53AM (#21166197)
Well my issue is I have no use for a Mac, I’m a Linux user.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by Wowfunhappy on Friday October 04, 2019 @07:11PM (#21162680)
Again, you don’t actually need a Macbook, you can use Cydia Impactor on any Windows or Linux machine.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by moron4hire on Friday October 04, 2019 @11:45PM (#21163685)
How do you build the IPA without Xcode?

Hell, whatever that process is, I might even use it in a Mac (if I had one), just because I have Xcode so much.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by Wowfunhappy on Saturday October 05, 2019 @06:13AM (#21164729)
If the actual goal is to sideload—which is what was being discussed—you don’t need to compile anything. You’d download a prebuilt but unsigned IPA, and then use Cydia Impactor to sign it with your developer certificate.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by kelnos on Saturday October 05, 2019 @02:13AM (#21164083)
If you're ok trusting a third party (such as an alternative app store), they can build it, send you the binary, you sign it (on Windows or Linux), and install it on the phone.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by GordonS on Friday October 04, 2019 @06:47PM (#21162522)
Yes, it does require access to MacOS, and payment to Apple to register as a dev - even aside from having to build apps yourself, this is not a reasonable solution to escaping the walled garden
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by monocularvision on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:06AM (#21163915)
It doesn’t require a Mac or the $99 developer fee. You can use a free developer account and a non-Mac as the server.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by GordonS on Saturday October 05, 2019 @04:18AM (#21164369)
Maybe we're talking about 2 different things here; to build for iOS, you need Xcode, and for Xcode you need MacOS and a dev subscription.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by morpheuskafka on Friday October 04, 2019 @09:46PM (#21163306)
There is a $99 fee for the Apple Developer Membership. A Mac is only needed to run Xcode, which is Apple's IDE+toolchain for iOS/macOS/etc development. If you want to build from source, you do need a Mac. If you want to install a precompiled app (.ipa file) you can use Windows or Linux.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by xmprt on Friday October 04, 2019 @06:13PM (#21162361)
That's against TOS and it's something that Apple is trying to fix. This is not a solution. It's a hack.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by SN76477 on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:13AM (#21163941)
As a casual user I prefer the walled garden that I get with iPhone.

Sure there are other apps but it’s just too much variety. What is out there is good and works.

Maybe I don’t know what I am missing because I never had it.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by userbinator on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:28AM (#21163983)
Maybe I don’t know what I am missing because I never had it.

That applies to freedom too.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by anoncake on Saturday October 05, 2019 @03:08PM (#21167319)
> As a casual user I prefer the walled garden that I get with iPhone.

No one wants to force you to use other stores.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by mrep on Saturday October 05, 2019 @09:21AM (#21165332)
Main use case I have is to side load a tethering app because the carriers have monopolized that functionality into one solution with a rediculous fee in the app stores. Cannot stop me from side loading though on Android.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by superkuh on Friday October 04, 2019 @08:16PM (#21162988)
I'm also a long-time desktop Linux user. Since 2003. I'd say that my average linux desktop computer has about half and half repo and non-repo software. I can't imagine limiting myself to just what was in the repos. There's only a tiny fraction of software in those even including personal repos like ubuntu's PPA system.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by bisby on Friday October 04, 2019 @08:22PM (#21163012)
With Arch / AUR even non-repo software feels like repo software.

However, on my ubuntu installs lately, I've found myself having to go with non-repo software for things that are in the repos. Because the repo version is just so far out of date. Version freezes with only security updates means lots of old software. I was loading my Arch configs on ubuntu and things were breaking. Update to current stable version and suddenly things work again. If i was stuck with repos, I would have just not used ubuntu at all.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by stevekemp2 on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:53AM (#21164677)
I have a few applications which are installed from source, and as you say a couple of things installed beneath /opt. Currently that is: Firefox, golang, Arduino studio and Calibre.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by amelius on Friday October 04, 2019 @06:49PM (#21162531)
You are confusing the availability of an automated software installation process with the possibility of installing software of choice.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by kevincox on Friday October 04, 2019 @08:33PM (#21163059)
I am mostly in agreement but I just want to highlight that having a curated store that is super easy isn't the problem.

The problem is not allowing other software. Sure, on Linux installing third party software isn't as simple as your package manager but it is possible and not made more difficult than necessary.

Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by walrus01 on Friday October 04, 2019 @05:18PM (#21162001)
yes, but the difference is how high that wall is on the garden. Using an ubuntu/debian type apt based system as an example, it's quite easy and fast to 'trust' a GPG signing key for a new repository and add it if needed.
Re:Apple approves previously rejected HKMap.live app by driverdan on Friday October 04, 2019 @05:29PM (#21162075)
You've always been able to add additional package manager repos in Linux with a few lines of config. Not true for iOS.