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Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by sabarn01 on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:13PM (#21096346)
Whats wrong with stoicism. Feelings are fleeting in general didn't lead me to positive places. I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by dang on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:46PM (#21096564)
I've participated in some of this work and agree that having feeling-sharing be the top line item is misleading. Feelings are involved, but the core of it is to face what one has been avoiding, in order to become stronger and grow. There's plenty of room for stoicism in that.

The way to overcome pain is to acknowledge and include it instead of denying it. The difference is huge, and most of us need help to get there—personally contactful help, not idea help. I found it pretty liberating to be able to get such help from other men, in a group no less. The point is not to become a gushy feeling-sharer or a sensitive new-age male. It is to no longer be governed by unconscious feelings and the wounds of early experience.

The organizations that practice this work are not super clear about that distinction, which I suspect limits their appeal to many men. I went because of a friend I respect, who in turn went because of a friend he respects. Had either of us only read an article like this, I doubt we'd have been interested. Its subtle ironizing, which approaches belittling ("chastened menfolk", "There, there"), would have turned me off. The photos would have turned me off too, and I've sat in a lot of workshops (though usually with few men and many women).

Edit: an interesting thing to me was the gap between practice and theory. Even though there were parts of the theory behind that work which I didn't necessarily find appealing, I met quite a few men there who struck me as having a kind of integrated masculinity (maybe not the best phrase, but it's hard to find words for these qualities). They seemed strong and open at the same time. I found myself admiring them and wanting to be more like that myself. None of this had much to do with expressing feelings or being emotional; I would use the word presence instead. They maybe even seemed a bit less emotional than most men I meet—more able to take in what is happening without being reactive.

So I would say the theory doesn't work as well as the practice. You barely ever get that! usually it's the other way around.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by fapjacks on Saturday September 28, 2019 @05:36AM (#21099397)
This is stoicism though. To process things instead of holding them inside, bottling them up, or putting them off such that they salt our enjoyment of life. However there's a social component of this feelings-sharing which is the subtext of the parent comment. Not all issues need to be shared, and in fact it's a kind of emotional vampirism to prioritize sharing emotional context without focusing on the explicit purpose of sharing to process and confront the issue.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by weberc2 on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:50AM (#21100261)
Agreed. What dang referred to admiringly as “integrated masculinity” sounds a lot like stoicism to me.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by macspoofing on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:23AM (#21099755)
>The way to overcome pain is to acknowledge and include it instead of denying it.

Publicly? It's one thing to be denial, it's another to acknowledge it to yourself but still elect not to engage in a public display of this. The strongest men I've ever met were not in denial of their emotional state but didn't need to engage in public displays like those listed in the article.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by dang on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:58PM (#21102809)
I agree, but this is a subtle question.

On the one hand yes, there's no need for emotional display for its own sake. As far as I've observed, that is mostly a cultural (or really a subcultural) marker anyhow; some communities value it, that's fine. I'm not personally that comfortable with emotion as a tap that gets turned on and off on demand. (During the group I mentioned above, I told them that if they kept asking me what I was feeling, the only feeling they were likely to get out of me was anger about being expected to feel something.)

That sort of cultural practice is a different thing, though—completely different—from deep feeling coming into experience as part of a healing process. The latter is not a tap and there is no quality of display about it. It is more like a flood that rises from forgotten places, and the healing comes from surrendering to that flood and allowing it to change whatever changes. Maybe after that you become more emotionally expressive, maybe not; I personally think that matters less than people in these communities say it does. But you become more integrated, gain capacity, become less reactive, less conflicted.

The subtle part comes up when you say "Publicly?". Yes and no. I don't think there's any need for ongoing public emotionality. I do think there's a deep reason why healing can't fully happen in isolation. It's because our wounds happen in relationship, usually in early relational experiences, and what is wounded relationally can only heal relationally. Personally I have found that frustrating—I would rather go off somewhere, resolve my issues myself, be a self-healing organism. But I've come to see how this impulse to isolation is actually an aspect of the wound itself, and so not a way to heal. Wounds don't heal themselves—they just repeat until something changes. As far as I can tell, there's no way to avoid connecting with others if you want that to change. But others' mileage may vary, and in any case this connecting needs to happen in safe, closed environments with strong containers, not in random public settings.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by ryanwaggoner on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:56AM (#21099861)
A small group of trusted men hardly counts as public.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by ryanwaggoner on Friday September 27, 2019 @07:52PM (#21097310)
Very well said.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by hondo77 on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:03PM (#21097374)
Ironizing?
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by dang on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:17PM (#21097445)
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by nostromo on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:20PM (#21096394)
I agree. I find that the healthiest people in my life don't seem to be the types prone to endless rumination.

I think this is where meditation (and stoicism) deviates from some types of psychotherapy and most support groups. Meditation teaches you to look at feelings dispassionately, which helps you lessen their power. This is very different than treating each emotion as if it is "correct" and in need of resolution via lots of introspection.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by zozbot234 on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:51PM (#21096597)
I thought that the way "introspection" is supposed to work was as a way of asking oneself: "wait, why am I feeling this emotion in the first place? Where does it bottom out, so to say?" Because that in turn tells you what strings to pull at in order to "resolve" the emotion in a comprehensive way. While this cannot be done without regarding the emotion as at least putatively "correct", I'd say that it's far from incompatible with a Stoicism-inspired approach, properly understood.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by josinalvo on Saturday September 28, 2019 @03:40PM (#21102419)
I think you need to understand the origins of the emotion, but you can (after understanding it) see it as mistaken.

Say you are pissed because you did not finish a job, but your job performance is increasingly better. Your emotion is not guiding you anywhere useful. It can be useful to understand dispassionately, and then choose to endorse it (that is, this seems a feeling that points to a correct direction, I will thing about solutions) or not (that is, this seems a feeling that does not point to where I want to go, thank you for your message, but I would rather not act on it).

Sometimes feelings are mistakes, like a optical illusion. Sometimes they are not.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by whatshisface on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:45PM (#21096561)
If the healthier people have by definition less emotional suffering, then of course they're going to complain less.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by tachyonbeam on Friday September 27, 2019 @06:00PM (#21096654)
I second this. We all have unique brains, and it seems to me that some people are naturally less prone to anxiety than others. I know plenty of people who seem to have naturally low anxiety, and as far as I can tell, they never needed to have some profound realization to become like this, they were likely born this way, they have lucky genetics.

Anxiety means your brain has more of a tendency to worry about potential threats. Possibly because your amygdala are more easily activated. It may just be that, back when we lived in the savannah, being easily aroused by potential threats, and being overly careful, was in many ways beneficial for survival. However, we live in a time of relative safety, and it seems that being someone who worries a lot about potential threats is not generally a useful trait.

I'm not saying that there's nothing you can do to manage anxiety, that is obviously false, but I'm saying there's a strong genetic component, and that judging people who appear more anxious and telling them just suck it up shows a fundamental lack of self-awareness and understanding of how the human brain works.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by lanstin on Friday September 27, 2019 @06:10PM (#21096708)
I agree: one's goal has to be to create a fulfilling life (whatever that means to one) with the nervous system you actually have. Wishing things away rarely works with mental/emotional realities. There's many ways to manage the reality of your specific self; e.g., I'm pretty anxious, so I start every day I can with a nice relaxing bath, during which I am free of anxiety. However, I don't try to make myself be free of anxiety when I have to speak up in some tense situation; then I use mindfulness techniques to just be aware and persist despite it all. Sometimes I do things to change my internal self, sometimes I just treat it like a person that needs certain random things to be at top performance. It depends.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by roganartu on Friday September 27, 2019 @09:11PM (#21097698)
I'll throw my anecdotal experience in life thus far in the ring. I turned 30 this year and I haven't really ever experienced anything more than mild stress, and even that is fairly infrequent (once or twice a year at most, and always because there is something that a reasonable person would say is worth stressing over).

I have been this way my entire life and as far as I'm aware it didn't come about from some life experience, I think I was just born like this. My mother used to laugh that everything was "like water off a duck's back" to me.

All throughout school and University I never once was stressed about any piece of assessment or any exams. There were a few I was woefully unprepared for and knew I would likely fail, but it never really bothered me. It wasn't that I didn't care, I just never saw the point in worrying as worrying is never going to change anything.

My wife is the opposite. She stresses about everything, many things that are completely out of her control. I have learnt a lot about how to support someone in that frame of mind, even when I don't understand why they are stressed.

This does have downsides. Many people, especially in professional contexts, mistake my stress free and easygoing nature as laziness. I also have relatively low empathy, though I'm not sure if that's a side effect, cause, or completely unrelated.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by ekr on Saturday September 28, 2019 @03:45AM (#21099036)
I've studied the area of developmental psychology a lot, and all evidence points to neuroticism, anxiety being not genetic but a result of developmental trauma. Adverse childhood experiences, missatunemenmet with the primary caregiver leads to an area of the brain responsible with affect regulation not being developed properly. Infants learn to regulate affect from parents (the mother or the primary caregiver).
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by 77pt77 on Friday September 27, 2019 @10:05PM (#21097909)
Another case of reverse causation.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by BeetleB on Saturday September 28, 2019 @12:13AM (#21098395)
>I find that the healthiest people in my life don't seem to be the types prone to endless rumination.

Rumination is unhealthy. And believe it or not, one of the antidotes to it is being able to communicate ones feelings effectively. In my experience, more expressive people tend not to suffer ruminating thoughts.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by floren on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:25PM (#21096429)
Seneca said in his third letter to Lucilius, "Ponder for a long time whether you shall admit a given person to your friendship; but when you have decided to admit him, welcome him with all your heart and soul. Speak as boldly with him as with yourself." I have one friend with whom I'll speak this boldly--some men have no-one. (I also think more women are in this position than society may assume)
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by weberc2 on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:59AM (#21100308)
I find that the extent to which men (and to a lesser extent, women) have this support varies between secular and religious (or at least Christian) communities. Christianity (as I’ve experienced it, anyway) promotes sharing feelings—for example, many churches have some notion of small groups or community groups in which (among many other things) people share things they struggle with and are supported and prayed for by others.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by mindv0rtex on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:39PM (#21096516)
Stoicism is not about suppressing feelings though, it is about realizing that the ones you have are inconsequential and should not control you. But while you are trying to rein them in, the solution is not to simply bear them in silence. If you have someone who can help you on the path to equanimity, you should feel free to share feelings with them.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by woodruffw on Friday September 27, 2019 @07:35PM (#21097228)
Stoicism requires apprehension, not repression, of one's feelings. "Handling their own problems" is precisely what these men appear to be attempting.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by ryanwaggoner on Friday September 27, 2019 @07:53PM (#21097315)
Stoicism is tragically misunderstood by most people.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by Ancalagon on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:15PM (#21096365)
Its fine to be stoic and self-reliant, the problem is that occasionally even a stoic man needs to voice concerns, and he is then looked down upon by his peers for doing so. This is why having an unbiased, third-party therapist to just listen can be so healthy.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by sabarn01 on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:20PM (#21096391)
This is true but I think that is what close friends are for. Everyone needs support I just think the goal to be not to let your feelings master you.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by Ancalagon on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:25PM (#21096428)
That's true too, but even then its hard to know sometimes who your close friends are, and what they will think of you for relieving that kind of information to them. Sometimes, the stoic man doesn't have a close friend. You can reply with "well they should get more/better friends", but therein I think lies the catch-22. Reveal your inner self, and maybe you'll get a close friend, or maybe you won't have any friends.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by meshenna on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:56AM (#21099671)
Solitude is preferable to fake relationships.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by kd3 on Saturday September 28, 2019 @01:10PM (#21101512)
Wisely spoken
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by seph-reed on Saturday September 28, 2019 @01:13AM (#21098588)
> people that can handle their own problems

I grew up west coast, spent a lot of time with people who I could "share my problems" with. It taught me to be pathetic when I'm down, to really reach for it. I don't like who I was when that was an effective means of attention.

I really wish the response would have been "You're having a hard time coping with the harshness of reality and acting immature, do your best to get it together soon."

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by BeetleB on Saturday September 28, 2019 @12:07AM (#21098373)
>I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems.

Try as I might, I have no idea what this has to do with feelings. Are you making an assumption that people who acknowledge or express their feelings are not handling problems?

And of course, as others have pointed out, stoicism doesn't suggest not pondering over feelings.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by thanatropism on Saturday September 28, 2019 @12:33AM (#21098466)
There's a subtle line between repressing and ruminating.

This may be colored by my experience of mental illness, but generally I've learned/grown more from pondering and sorting out feelings in the past rather than right now. It's easy to fall into a trap of "worshipping your pain" (or your hypomanic euphoria for that matter).

OTOH I'm very appreciative of the dispassionate attitude encouraged by stoicism and meditation, etc. -- but that kind of wisdom is acquired with work, like building muscle. "You should lift heavy things!" is both an interesting aspirational model and dangerous advice if it isn't culturally obvious that you can get hurt lifting heavy things while not in shape.

(Edit: stoicism/meditation etc. are more or less like "second-order repression": as you acknowledge your fingertips or your breath, you acknowledge that you have feelings in order to theoretically understand them (locus of control/illusion of self). The danger is that letting go of first-order repression, you can let yourself have feelings about your feelings -- feeling good about feeling miserable would be the common type.)

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by selestify on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:53AM (#21099263)
Why not have feelings about your feelings?
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by sabarn01 on Saturday September 28, 2019 @03:01AM (#21098898)
It has nothing to do with feelings and that is my point. Dwelling on any feeling no matter how serious will every make your life better.

I like to think of my self as happy Sisyphus enjoying pushing the rock up the hill. Thinking about the futility of the effort is by definition futile.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by adamsea on Friday September 27, 2019 @06:51PM (#21096998)
Stoicism is different from denial. I think denial is more what the article is about, since it talks about the higher suicide rate of men, etc.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by seph-reed on Saturday September 28, 2019 @01:04AM (#21098562)
IMO, not being suicidal is far more being in denial than the other way around. Or, in the very least, thinking that life is some gift. It totally could be, but not like this.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by vageli on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:15AM (#21099523)
> IMO, not being suicidal is far more being in denial than the other way around. Or, in the very least, thinking that life is some gift. It totally could be, but not like this.

It's not a gift compared to what? Nonexistence?

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by honkycat on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:16PM (#21096369)
No man is an island. And it is hard to know if you ARE "handling your own problems" when you do not seek other people's input.

"Handling your own problems" a lot of the time means "making other people responsible for my emotional well being."

I do love stoicism though and I think meditation and stoicism are excellent paths to understanding yourself and managing your internal state.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by joeyrideout on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:31PM (#21096469)
I generally take "[h]andling your own problems" to mean taking responsibility for your own problems.

I'm seeing a lot of agreement in this thread, though. Healthy, deep relationships with family and close friends are important to keep you grounded, and therapy can help everyone. Many seemingly desirable positions of status that men and women strive for involve incredible amounts of stress, and people naturally have differing levels of stress tolerance, so at some point self-knowledge becomes very valuable. Having good people around you is a great way to build that self-knowledge.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by thrower123 on Friday September 27, 2019 @07:57PM (#21097340)
Are you going to work? Are you reasonably content? Then you are handling your problems.

Some people really seem to want men to be very emotional and assume something is wrong if they don't appear to be showing strong emotions. Often, they're just fine, and there's no there there.

If you keep picking at them, you'll probably generate some emotions, however.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by indigochill on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:03AM (#21099093)
I'm not sure the point is expression per se, or always being emotional, but rather being okay with introspecting on emotions when they do come up and more to the point, what's causing them.

I'd compare it to a tooth abscess. It's not like it's so painful you need to scream. It's just kind of there, occasionally causing problems. But if it goes untreated long enough, the bacteria in it can kill you. There are some parallels there with loneliness, which a lot of men suffer from.

So I'd say this is more the realization that "Oh, this pain is because of this source. I'm gonna go deal with that source." The process of dealing might involve making your emotions known (such as when breaking up).

Of course, if you're legitimately not in any kind of pain, then great. But most people are, in one form or another.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by johnisgood on Saturday September 28, 2019 @01:13PM (#21101529)
> "Handling your own problems" a lot of the time means "making other people responsible for my emotional well being."

This is new to me. Making other people responsible for my emotional well-being is being dependent on other people for our own happiness. Stoicism does not suggest that you do this, on the contrary.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by abootstrapper on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:13PM (#21098174)
Stoicism as a personal philosophy or cultural norm? For the former, I’d say nothing. But for the later I think it’s unfortunate. There are many ways to live a life and many philosophies. Stoicism may work for you, but maybe the next guy needs a good cry without getting harassed for it.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by johnisgood on Saturday September 28, 2019 @07:12AM (#21099715)
In my opinion, this is a great book on stoicism: https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/1522...
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by lacampbell on Friday September 27, 2019 @06:51PM (#21096999)
Sharing your feelings doesn't really mean breaking down crying when anything remotely bad happens to you in life. It can just be talking frankly and openly about challenges you face in your life. Is that at odds with being stoic?
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by scroy on Friday September 27, 2019 @07:51PM (#21097308)
Not at all. I'd say the motivation for talking things through lies on a spectrum between brainstorming and bitching, and people have a need for both, just be aware of which one you're doing. A complaint can be stoic.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by domnomnom on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:49PM (#21096590)
Yep. I fear there may be a narrative being pushed here.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by marble-drink on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:52AM (#21099659)
Indeed. For me, being stoic is the only way. Crying about problems does nothing so why do anything at all? We all have the power to choose to be the best person we can be given our circumstances. That is what I try to do every day.

For me, men who need to share their feelings are weak. This is what women do. But we can't all be women. Men need to learn to enjoy their advantages: superior strength, speed, and resilience, but accept that problems won't just go away if you cry about them. Either solve the problem or accept it and don't give it another precious moment's thought.

Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by marble-drink on Saturday September 28, 2019 @05:07PM (#21102871)
Predictably downvoted. Apparently I'm not allowed to express how I feel.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by masonic on Sunday September 29, 2019 @01:53AM (#21105368)
You managed to insult many of both genders in a two-sentence span.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by marble-drink on Sunday September 29, 2019 @04:11AM (#21105815)
That's their fault, not mine. Read the drivel from celebrities on your carefully filtered twitter feed if you don't ever want to be offended.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by dang on Sunday September 29, 2019 @01:52PM (#21108489)
Can you please not post like this to HN? We're trying for something a bit more thoughtful than the usual internet assaults. I'm sure you can make your substantive points more thoughtfully.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by marble-drink on Monday September 30, 2019 @02:58AM (#21112396)
It's not an assault. I am sharing my philosophy. It's what keeps me happy and why I don't need to go to support groups. But I guess that's just not welcome here.
Re:Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) by dang on Monday September 30, 2019 @03:01AM (#21112419)
Of course you're welcome to share your philosophy if you do so in a way that's substantive and relevant. But please do it without being so aggressive. "Read the drivel from celebrities on your carefully filtered twitter feed if you don't ever want to be offended" is the sort of flamewar style we don't want here.

It's not primarily that a comment like that is so bad in its own right. It's that it tends to produce worse from others and, compounded over time, that destroys the community.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html