Most software engineers have a healthy circle of friends and social life.
> I hate having eclectic or traditional "nerdy" interests and getting a similar reaction.
It's not any different when an electrician, lawyer or a doctor wants to talk shop. Most people you will interact with don't have the same interests as you.
> I have no interest in turning off that part of my brain so I can fit into the sportsfan stereotype
Virtually no one fits cleanly into stereotypes. Stereotypes are useful for generalizing groups, not individuals. "Sportsfanning" is highly correlated with a rich social life, but you are confusing cause and effect.
> That I have nothing to look forward to but more of the same of this, and the few people I have contact with disappear in one way or the other. Sometimes I ask, why bother?
All of the rationalization about software engineering, "nerdy" interests is leading you astray. None of those are barriers to a fulfilling social life. Your social life issues are due to any number of problems. It could be depression, anxiety, it could be poor social skills. It is possible (maybe less likely) that you have little interest in deep social connections, but you have to evaluate carefully whether you are really unhappy with just a small online circle, or are you just worried because you appear away from the norm.
In any event I encourage you to think deeply about your situation. If you want to change anything, quitting software engineering won't help. It will most likely require a great deal of struggle. Depression and anxiety are not easily shaken off. Learning social skills like most things is harder later in life. I can assure you people in your position have improved, but only after taking stock of what is holding them back and seeking appropriate assistance.
I understand the point you're trying to make but this isn't a truism. It's a subjective opinion that wouldn't apply to any industry much less tech, which itself isn't specific to software engineering. This is an issue that effects all specialized fields of study, interests and careers. I don't feel generalizing the issue in a blanket statement that the problem is specific to the individual in question and somehow not related to circumstances beyond that individual's control is beneficial to the OP and anyone dealing with similar issues.
How many people can astronauts have honest conversations with about traveling in space that other people would understand and empathize with? Obviously very few, but it would be inaccurate and irresponsible to lay blame on an astronaut if they feel socially isolated as a result.
Later in your post you use a loaded, weasel worded statement that I strongly disagree with, which again seems to again lay blame on the OP for their honest and earnest concern:
"It could be depression, anxiety, it could be poor social skills. It is possible (maybe less likely) that you have little interest in deep social connections"
It "could" be any number of things but only one perspective is being addressed. Implying that someone's failure to conform to our ever changing, opinionated and perceived social "norm" is the cause of their issues and concerns is not helping anyone.
Uhh.. no I mentioned: "It is possible (maybe less likely) that you have little interest in deep social connections."
Listen bud, a person that is well-adjusted in their social life whether that is gregarious or solitude doesn't post a complaint of this nature to an online forum. Something is wrong, whether it is the way the individual attempts to make social connections or their own acceptance of their needs and letting go of perceptions of what people think. And not all of that can be blamed on others. I didn't claim to know or judge which one it was.
And yes, most software engineers have a healthy social life, because software engineers as a population are not really that different from the norm.
> I don't feel generalizing the issue in a blanket statement that the problem is specific to the individual in question and somehow not related to circumstances beyond that individual's control is beneficial to the OP and anyone dealing with similar issues.
Problems that are beyond an individual's control are worth acknowledging but are otherwise irrelevant since there is nothing that can be done about them. Identifying problems that are within one's control are the first and only step to improving one's circumstances.
There were plenty of people here replying that: oh it's just other people, it's not you. Well that is partly true, but that's also bullshit and not helpful. I refuse to believe that someone complaining on an Internet forum about their social problems has exhausted all options for personal growth.
> Obviously very few, but it would be inaccurate and irresponsible to lay blame on an astronaut if they feel socially isolated as a result.
No, I say it is fully responsible to blame (I hate this word, but I'm trying not to be weasley) the astronaut if they feel socially isolated. Ultimately the only one responsible for their happiness and fulfillment is them alone. Sure they can blame the plebes that don't "get it" and wallow in permanent victimhood, but that doesn't do any favors for their psyche.
A lot of people, including astronauts are able to find joy in other things than space travel that they can then relate with a broader array of people (this may be "pedestrian" sports, or this may more like joining the demoscene for the Atari 2600). The thing that you and others seem to miss is that efforted development of broader interests can be an ends justifying means to counter social isolation. It's a responsible and mature thing to do.
Thanks!
> Most software engineers have a healthy circle of friends and social life.
Huh? OP's allusion to "mild-discomfort" when talking about their career field leads you to respond with the patronizing suggestion that "most software engineers have a healthy circle of friends"? That's an unhelpful and presumptuous piece of advice, especially considering it's directed to someone who is opening up about their current mental health issues
Besides loneliness, sedentary lifestyle, poor diet and low vitamin D3 can lead to low serotonin levels and therefore moodiness and loss of ambition.
Is this an area where you can improve? My social skills are abyssmally non-existant... I am in a suprisingly similar situation to satokemas, all but the fact that I do not ever doubt "why bother" (I love the world) and I go to high school— I don’t work, that is.
I’ve been alone for two years in school now, although I just recently got one friend that is very understanding, though I guess I’ll still be alone almost all the time, this last year of school.
This is sad, I don’t like things being sad. Therefore I want to do something about it...
I did almost all of the school years mostly alone: I connected with very few people, even at university, mostly because i always had the anxiety of "what if I fail", "what if they don't like me".
After starting to work and after changing country twice (trying to change everything i didn't like about myself every time) the biggest lesson I think I learned is that basically everybody has always the same self-doubts, internal problems, etc. Everybody has a life as difficult and complex as yours, but you can just see the external side of it (the side they want to show you).
It's just not worth keeping up a fake image of yourself and never "risking" doing something because of fear of what happens, just live life doing what you love/feel like, and you'll find other people that like you for whatever you really are :)
In 5 years from now nobody from your school will remember even the biggest failures (and even if someone does, chances are you won't meet them again - if you don't actively work together to remain friends). So go out and try talking to new people, open up about what you really like to some trustworthy-looking people and see if they like something that you like too :)
Complex things, us humans...
Yes. As with everything else it just gets easier the more you do it. We feel at our most socially awkward in high school I think, in part because we're unfairly hard on ourselves. People are way more forgiving of social awkwardness than we think, stumbling is not the end of the world. For instance, how would you react if someone was socially awkward around you? Exactly.
Relax, have fun, sleep well. You don't have to be a talkative extrovert to be liked; I'm an introvert and never chat anyone's ear off except with things I can geek out over (music, games). You grow confidence as you engage more, but to get to that point you have to break out of your shell somewhat.
A medium always helped to relate to others in my case, be it sports, music or gaming.
More generally though, you're still young and have lots of new opportunities to make friends ahead of you. So while I definitely agree with some of the other replies, if you find yourself struggling still, just remember high school isn't forever and there will be new opportunities in the future; you just have to be ready to take full advantage of them.
I think you mean something else, because you're here, publicly expressing your thoughts, pretty well I might add, and you've already engaged a few people in a conversation.
I'm pretty sure your school has people you can socialize with, but you probably just don't want to socialize with them. Maybe it's because you don't find those people attractive or interesting, just like some other people in your school don't find you interesting or attractive. That's normal.
Sorry, but I'm going to call [citation needed] on this. It's a rather extraordinary claim, and goes against both popular stereotypes and my personal experience.
Depression and anxiety are common in the general population. Social maladaptation is also common, though less so. It is unsurprisingly true that these traits are a bit overrepresented in the tech professions. But tech is not unique in this, the healthcare professions also overrepresent depression, for instance. In either case, it is not even close to a majority.
People that tend to be in these minority groups though by very nature isolate themselves and tend to only see that minority. At worst, online these can lead to some very troublesome echo chambers.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But you made the original claim, therefore the burden is on you to provide supporting evidence.
There's nothing there that indicating mood disorders, waking hours, or screen time even are wildly outside the norm for the middle class working population.
Anyways, I don't care about this fact too much. I'm going to continue believing that the majority of software engineers have fairly typical social lives, and my own observations don't conflict with this.
I don't care much about this, because the point I was making was that categorizing oneself in buckets like "software engineer" to justify one's misery is counterproductive, and even if 95% of software engineers were miserable I still think it be worth working towards that 5% rather than worrying about stereotypes.
Your account seems to be new, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are indeed new here. Here's my "tip": please don't do what you just did. It degrades the quality of the debate and breeds resentment.
When I lived in Waterloo, everyone was a software person or related so it wasn't a problem. But I moved to a small city where almost everyone is a factory worker of some sort for farming or auto industries. When someone asks and I say I'm a software engineer, it usually stops there. Or they'll say something along the lines of, "oooh fancy". And if they keep asking about it they might learn, if I don't hold it from them, that I basically work in an industry trying to eliminate their jobs.
I didn't really think about this social aspect when I moved. Now I have to be somewhat dishonest with my neighbours as they all get up at the crack of dawn or go in for a night shift to make a living while I work in my pajamas from home for an industry trying to make them obsolete.
It's complicated and really aches when I'm confronted with it during social times.
Productivity gains help the world by allowing more services and products to be provided at cheaper rates. This software engineer self-loathing I keep reading about is completely misguided, it's like you are expected to hate yourself for doing valuable labor.
That can be true and still not ease the pain inflicted by unemployment. The poster is confronting the consequences of their work and you are suggesting The Greater Good should simply trump their basic human empathy... An alternative might be to accept both benefits and costs of said work and make an effort to mitigate the costs via charity, volunteering, support for social programs, etc.
Someone well educated who understand software should know what being a "software engineer" entails.
Talking to my mum or someone that isn't technical, I am a "computer programmer" as its something I think they will understand a lot more easily.
Or if the conversation is more casual say a random person in a pub, then I will even say I am a "computer nerd", as I think it brings you to their level a bit more and shows you don't take yourself too seriously.
Everybody says 'the robots are destroying jobs' but the unemployment rate (in the US at least) is very low right now. If AI is taking all the jobs, how is the unemployment rate so low and the economy booming?
The possibilities I can think of: - AI is creating jobs at the same rate it automates them. The new jobs may not be as good as the old jobs, or perhaps they require people to totally retrain which isn't always feasible. But people need to make a living and they adapt because they have to.
- Lots of people have given up looking for work.
- For the most part, AI is augmenting rather than replacing humans.
- The full impact of AI on our society has yet to be felt, and we should brace ourselves like the rich techies building compounds in New Zealand.
What do you think?
I think you just need to find more interesting people to talk to. It's them, not you.
Reminds me of a quote I found helpful: "Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes."
I've known sports fans with no friends, etc... these are somewhat orthogonal things. There's also a lot of judgment in this quoted line in particular. Which fits with the general problem of just "I don't like where I am but want something different but don't know what that is." Unfortunately (but also fortunately!) the cliche answer is true here: the only way to change what you're doing is to change what you're doing. I can't tell you what hobbies or social groups or whatever, but if you're not looking for them, you're not going to find any. Nothing is gained without practice.
Funny, I feel like I don't fit in, because I've never been a gamer (video or board or otherwise), don't like Sci-Fi, hate Fantasy with a passion, etc etc. I'm not a Trekkie or a Star Wars fan. I don't like anime. shrug There are lots of ways to not fit in.
There's a community for nearly everything, and having people you can talk to about your passions goes a long way in making people feel less lonely, and has a significant impact on your lifespan itself: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/relationships-boo...
10's of millions of people have played WoW over it's 15 year run and I suspect a large number of software engineers that were exposed to the original game as teenagers are enjoying playing classic now.
You shouldn't feel like you need to beat yourself up for not having some version of "normative" interests or not aligning with what you see others doing.
Finally, always keep in mind that people are generally far too worried about their own lives to dissect yours. You say you feel discomfort telling people you are a software engineer? Have you ever considered that the sports fans and netflix watchers first reaction to hearing that might be "damn, I wish I had my shit together enough to learn a valuable professional skill like satokema has"
Oddly enough, I recently found myself saying something to this effect, in a meeting: "I'm an engineer, a professional. I like to take pride in my work. I look at doctors (or civil engineers) at my age and wonder about the level of respect they enjoy and how they approach their profession. How did we get to a point where we (generalizing here) got to a point where we both behave, and are treated as borderline-savants who must be tolerated out of sheer necessity?"
The other factor is that it’s certainly possible to be a first class software engineer while still a teenager, whereas I suspect there are no teenage doctors. So you have a population of very young, very capable engineers, who have fast-forwarded their careers past all the hard-won social skills lessons that others their age have been learning.
I was miserable for the year and a half I was there, and I found a new job where everyone is a nerd. I love every single minute of my "work" day.
Your environment can poison your self image, so leave and find somewhere that suits you better. Personal fit in a company is sometimes more important than the tech you're working on.
I don't know how my coworkers still work there. Nobody else left but me. Are people just blind to their own suffering? What is the deal with that?
While you're at it, you're choosing the modern-average crowd of people who do nothing interesting with their personal lives. Sports fans, movies, bars? Come on!
Easy first step: pick an individual sport and stick with it for a year. Check out your local bouldering gym or get into tennis, for example. Both of those have above-average, healthy, driven, interesting people.
Why do you feel discomfort? The only reason I do is because of a sense of guilt, because it implies I make far more money than the person I'm usually telling who is making small talk with me.
I'm not scraping by in my early twenties with a futon trying to bust into a career with a full year's salary in student loan debt. I immediately started making what many people make at the tail end of what they'd call a good career. All while coming in just about whenever I feel like it.
My life is a joke in comparison and it's just a coincidence that I landed in it. Same with other guys I know. They happened to like something, such as making Quake mods and then stumbled into making 200k/year in 35hr per week, with maybe half of that 35 being YAML engineering.
I actually hate myself for knowing instantly what you meant by 'Classic', despite never having played.
And I hate myself for never having played, not because I wouldn't enjoy the fuck out of it, but because I let the fear of judgement from my social circle. Despite the fact that I don't really care for that social circle, I do care deeply what they think about me, and I let it determine my actions and what I allow myself to participate in.
Of course even then you need to be active at least to the point of finding the others out there, but I'd still contest it to be the easier way.
For some reason, not having someone else look you in the eyes with a similar amount of excitement just isn't the same.
Every decently sized city I lived in, the 'nerdy' interests had a sizable population, and was even mainstream.
"I second that!"
"I third that!"
...
"I n-th that!"
The existential dread you're experiencing is not your fault: normies will bore you to death 99% of the time.
Remedy: find yourself people like yourself and start spending time with them.
I hate the mild feeling of discomfort I get when I tell most people I'm a software engineer.
I hate having eclectic or traditional "nerdy" interests and getting a similar reaction. I've been enjoying Classic, and I have a small online circle for the niche games/music/art I like.
I hate that I like these things in spite of the detriment to my social benefit to liking them. I have no interest in turning off that part of my brain so I can fit into the sportsfan stereotype or netflix-watcher or chronic-substance-abuser or extremely-self-improving-gogetter.
Work is okay most of the time, as long as it's about work. The environment is pretty lack and understanding. Having a non-work conversation is sometimes impossible because there's barely overlap, depending on the person.
Basically, it's just existential dread. That I have nothing to look forward to but more of the same of this, and the few people I have contact with disappear in one way or the other. Sometimes I ask, why bother?