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Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by slim on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @01:48AM (#20863988)
The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory.

In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be forgotten" type of policy, make for a very dangerous power never experienced before by humanity.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by SkyBelow on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @10:59AM (#20867101)
The honest truth is that you shouldn't. People treat memory like a video recording. It is more like a play that is reenacted every time you remember it, where props are pulled out of storage but sometimes the wrong prop is pulled out and yet nothing feels wrong. For example, maybe you remember the day you lost your keys and found them between the pottery. What exactly did that pottery look like? Pull the pottery prop out of storage, which is based off of the most recent memory of there being only two pots. You now have a memory of finding the keys between your two pots.

Happen to find a third pot that went missing and place it back on the stand? Next time you remember the incident with the keys, the pottery prop pulled out is the one involving 3 pots. So you clearly remember finding your keys between three plots.

Well what about the old memory? You pull up the memory of a memory, but each memory is generated with props and there is a chance you end up remembering your original memory had 3 pots as well.

The more trivial the detail, the more likely you'll only keep around the most recent prop only and thus have a false memory. There is a lot of psychological research into people watching cars driving where the psychologist then falsify memories of the vehicles (something that is never called out as being worth remembering at the start of the experiment). It works decently well in adults. It works horrifyingly well in kids.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by ssully on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @12:23PM (#20868165)
In Ted Chiang's latest short story collection "Exhalation" there is a story called "The Truth of Fact, the Truth of Feeling"[1] that kind of touches on what you are talking about. In the story, one of the characters is writing up a critique about a new technology that constantly records video from a persons perspective and the video can be recalled at will (like memory). In his critique, he uses a memory (traditional - not using this new technology) he has of a large argument him and his daughter had. This moment/memory was a crucial part in his life and really defined how he viewed himself and his relationship with his daughter. I won't go into it, but the reality of the event and how he remembers it is very similar to your point - specifically, that memory is more like an imperfect play, replay and biased by your recall.

I highly recommend the book, but that story in general. As with most of his stories, he takes a premise that seems generic on it's face and twists it in ways that you wouldn't expect.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Truth_of_Fact,_the_Truth_o...

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by carterehsmith on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @01:17PM (#20868762)
"The honest truth is that you shouldn't. " (believe your own memory)

That does not seem like a good way to live.

Imagine "not trusting your memory" tomorrow morning, and refusing to recognize your bedroom, your spouse, your kids, family, your house, car, coworkers etc.

Seems like one would go insane, quickly. So yeah, I guess you do need to trust your memory - but judiciously.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by ccvannorman on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @09:36AM (#20877049)
I think I remember you challenging my assumptions with your comment, but I can't be sure. Tomorrow I'll probably trust in a fallback model for what I think your comment's intention was.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by JamesBarney on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @02:09PM (#20869356)
Yeah for a decade I had an extremely vivid memory of my grandmother spanking me. But in my 20s I once brought it up when my grandmother mentioned never having spanked anyone. She denied it, said it was my mother and I got confirmation from all of my uncle's they were never spanked.

Really made me realize how untrustworthy even the most vivid memories are.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by roenxi on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @07:33AM (#20865507)
> Imagine not being able to believe your own memory.

I'm not aware of any evidence that we can believe our own memories. Memory is much like eyesight. There is a very complex process going on to give you the illusion of a clear and consistent picture that is at odds with what the messy and biological process we rely on can actually achieve.

The basic problem is that people don't by and large scientifically assess their memories for accuracy, so they are reliant on other people alerting them to problems. The feedback process there doesn't encourage correctness, it encourages conformance.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by altcognito on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:06AM (#20866072)
This is what rationalization looks like. "Oh, well, memories are kinda inaccurate, so, it really doesn't matter if we modify them wholesale." Fairly dangerous rationalization.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by bilbo0s on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:41AM (#20866350)
Just Devil's Advocate, but I think it's fairly well established that human memories are not "kinda inaccurate", they are woefully inaccurate. Most of the time a human can get some of the big stuff right, but the neuro-psychological underpinnings of "attention" and "memory" pretty much guarantee we will miss a lot of what's going on. (And if we can put the human under enough stress, s/he will not even get the big stuff right.) The fact is, humans rarely even "see" what's actually in front of them, let alone have any "memory" of what was actually in front of them. (For us, reality is not reality, rather our perception is our reality.)

Now the memory being inaccurate to start with does not make manipulating that already inaccurate memory "ok". There's no question about that. Though having said that, it's important to note that because memories are so malleable and inaccurate, we've actually been manipulating them for a long time. It's actually a pretty well researched area.

I mean, this is not really new.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by ergothus on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:43AM (#20866362)
I agree that it is bad to embrace/shrug off memory manipulation with the rationalization that memory has always been reliable. [Edit: Unreliable]

It is also bad to ignore the evidence that memories are unreliable with or without memory manipulation.

We can acknowledge the weakness without using it as justification.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by jblwps on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @10:21AM (#20866693)
That sounds pretty level-headed to me. Acknowledging one's own fallibility/being humble in the face of one's own ignorance is broadly helpful. It seems it only becomes a problem when you start deeply distrusting yourself; you can never get away with wholly doubting yourself.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by ergothus on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @06:05PM (#20871710)
In my experience (I have a pretty TERRIBLE memory - people routinely reference events I participated in but have no recollection of, and when I consider if a particular believable event happened, I can imagine it and have no real way to distinguish the imagination from actual memory), the real problem comes with interacting with those that demonstrate full and utter confidence.

I doubt myself, but I still see the need to make decisions. Most people, faced with my caveats, allow that they can be wrong as well, and we decide things. But the problem cases are without any doubt - my caveats only prove their correctness. If presented with convincing evidence of their fault, they move on to the next thing and never learn that 100% confidence is overconfidence.

I don't know that my lack of trust in my memories makes me more vulnerable to such people or if they only react to facing others as immovable as themselves, with everyone else being indistinguishable speed bumps.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by sjg007 on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @10:47AM (#20866987)
We know memory is fallible. This hasn't stopped prosecutors from manipulating eye witness testimony in the pursuit of convictions over the truth.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by jblwps on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @10:18AM (#20866679)
> The basic problem is that people don't by and large scientifically assess their memories for accuracy

But wouldn't any practice of assessing one's own memories intermediately depend on memory faculties? I can quickly think of two dependencies:

1. Working memory (maybe this is tangential and not really on topic for long-term memory) 2. Semantic memories required to assess the legitimacy of a memory. E.g. if we were to shoot for "scientific assessments" like you said, then said assessment would rely on memories that allow for scientific assessment. I'm no scientist and don't know quite what such "scientific assessment" would look like in practice, but if you have an assessment framework you're deliberately working within, it seems like you'd have to at least have semantic memory/existing knowledge of that same framework.

Perhaps manipulation of episodic memory doesn't clearly pose such problems, but I expect that's neither here nor there.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by roenxi on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @10:57AM (#20867079)
Yeah, to really get in among the weeds and measure the inaccuracies is hopefully impossible. But it wouldn't be too hard to build up a high-level feel for how much big picture stuff you forget from keeping a journal & photographs, then blindly writing how you remember things playing out and comparing the two. More scientific than what most would bother with.

I came across some ancient IRC logs just yesterday that let me look back at a situation I thought I remembered. Turns out I did not remember it.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by js2 on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:40AM (#20866348)
We’ve got these small pottery bowls I really like. One day, I noticed there only seemed to be two of them. I asked my spouse what happened to the other two. She replied that we only ever owned two. I said, no that can’t be right, I’m certain we had four. She insisted only two. A while later I found a third. I went to her and said, ah ha, see, three bowls! Where did the fourth go?

And do you know what she says? “We’ve only ever had three.”

It’s been many months now, maybe a year, and there’s still only three, but hand to god, I’m going to find that fourth bowl.

I still can’t get a straight answer out of her why she’s so certain there were only ever three when she was just as certain there were only ever two until confronted with the physical reality of three bowls.

Now she thinks this is about being right, but I insist it isn’t. It’s the unsettling idea that my memory isn’t correct.

I may just have to let this one go... :-)

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by Swizec on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:46AM (#20866387)
3 is an awkward number of bowls so there definitely used to be 4. Dishware usually comes in multiples of 2
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by js2 on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:59AM (#20866504)
I’ve argued that point. We think we got them at a pottery tent at the state fair where they may have been in bulk and we just purchased three, but I don’t know why we would have bought an odd number.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by mortenjorck on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @12:39PM (#20868349)
I have fun from time to time attempting to reconcile divergent memories, so allow me to hypothesize one possible scenario:

There were only three available at the fair. You would normally only buy bowls in a set of four. However, as you mention, you really like this particular style. Perhaps you liked it so much that you made an exception in this case and bought the three because that was the maximum available. But then you lost the third, and so the memories you were triangulating from were "there are two in the cupboard," "that's not the full set," and "four is a full set."

Now onto your spouse's memory. They remembered two at first, because they were triangulating between "we normally buy four," "there are fewer than four of these," and "we always buy an even number." Confronted with the existence of a third, the other memory, "there are fewer than four" remains in effect.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by everdrive on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @12:01PM (#20867907)
Tell your wife that her gaslighting isn't nearly interesting enough.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by hyperpallium on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @10:33AM (#20866833)
She always said there were three.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by wahern on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:10PM (#20870657)
In the 1980s and 1990s there was a nationwide (and apparently worldwide) hysteria about satanic cults abusing children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

As I child I regularly heard the debates on various talk shows (I watched alot of TV). What was happening was that child psychologists were effectively implanting memories into these children. I found that idea fascinating.

At some point I came up with a game that I would play on the bus ride home from school. There was an undeveloped, partially wooded lot that the bus passed by every day. People would leave things there, especially kids. But the important thing is that week-to-week and even day-to-day the lot would change. Kids might build a fort; somebody might leave or take away some trash; the neighbor might cut the grass or clear some dead wood. The game consisted of 1) noticing something that had changed and 2) inventing something that changed. The next day I would try to pick, before passing the lot, which was the real change and which was the one I invented, and then confirm as I passed.

I very quickly realized how incredibly easy it was to create false memories. Even though I was the one deliberately picking the false memories, I regularly fooled myself. In fact, I got really good at fooling myself. If you visualize an imagined scene and mentally interact with it--imagine walking through it, imagine fake relationships between elements--then for all intents & purposes your memory of it will be little different than if you had been looking at and interacting with something real. Even more scary, I learned that I could consistently misremember things; that is, for a good fake memory I'd consistently pick it day-after-day, even though each prior day I would have realized it was the fake one.

Another thing I learned with my game is that memories are largely about associations, especially plausible associations. We filter particular memories by how well they fit together and how well they comport with the larger narrative. (Which is I think why visualizations are so powerful, as they make it easy to create many elements that fit well together.) If a memory doesn't fit into other memories, like you rationally know you couldn't possibly have been somewhere on some particular day, we tend to discard it. For innocuous memories (e.g. maybe some thought of doing something at the time, but which you didn't actually perform) we filter these out almost imperceptibly. OTOH, sometimes it's difficult to rule out memories, particular innocuous ones, which is why we misremember small stuff so often.

One small thing I've avoided ever since then is looking at photographs. I've found that the mere act of looking at a photograph can almost instantly replace your own memory of an event. That doesn't mean my original memory was any more truthful. But the original is often imbued with certain emotional artifacts that, in my experience, can get washed away by the visual fidelity of a photograph.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by weinzierl on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @03:31AM (#20864346)
In "Ghost in the Shell" there is a sub plot with a man who talks all day about his family until it is revealed to him that it is all false memories. I always found this one of the most horrifying scenes in the movie.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by justinjlynn on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:04AM (#20864518)
Indeed. For me, the worst bit is that they explicitly, for no reason other than to inform us, say they won't be able to repair the damage.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by pmoriarty on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:57PM (#20871090)
This was already in Blade Runner (which Ghost in the Shell was doubtlessly influenced by), where the replicants have photographs of their families, who never existed, as they were implanted memories.

Ironically, I don't remember if this was in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep (which Blade Runner was loosely based on), but even if it's not, it's a very common theme in Philip K Dick's work.

A similar thing happens in Total Recall, which was also loosely based on PKD's We Can Remember It For You Wholesale, where memories of the protagonist's family and prevois life have been implanted. In this case, the protagonist does not rely on photographs, as he has a wife in the present, but (spoiler) it turns out she's not really his wife.

Oliver Sacks is also worth reading on these themes, as he tells of many real-life cases of people misremembering, misrecognizing, and disbelieving things most everyone else takes for granted, from faces to family to their own body parts to language.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by tzs on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @12:21PM (#20868148)
ST:TNG, season 5, episode 25, "The Inner Light" broadly could be described similarly, except whether it is horrifying or wonderful is hard to decide. One of the best TNG episodes.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by lostjohnny on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:56AM (#20864770)
> "right to be forgotten" type of policy

The right to be forgotten is a right, as the name suggests.

It always existed, if I want to be fogotten IRL I can, why shouldn't it be possible online?

What's the difference between deleting my social timeline and burning my pictures or my diary?

One of my favourite books is "The Late Mattia Pascal" (Il fu Mattia Pascal) from Luigi Pirandello, it was written in 1904 and it's the story of a man who's unhappy and one day discovers that his wife and mother in law found a body and declared it to be his own, so he becomes officialy a dead person.

He takes advantage of the fact to escape his true identity and create a new one, settling in Rome, far from were he was born.

The story is fascinating and a masterpiece about what's really "identity", how we all wear masks and how we all are different (sometimes very) people depending on who you ask.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by jpttsn on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:11AM (#20864836)
It’s not possible IRL.

If I want my picture gone from the high school yearbook, nobody will help me track down every copy and mask the image.

If I want the local grocery cashier not to greet me by name, I can’t make them forget me.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by Kbelicius on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:44AM (#20865002)
> It’s not possible IRL.

> If I want my picture gone from the high school yearbook

AFAIK right to be forgotten, at least in EU, is the right to request that search engines do not display information about an individual that is factually incorrect, obsolete.... it has nothing to do with deleting actual information.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by lostjohnny on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:50AM (#20865041)
This!

The right to be forgotten (or to oblivion) is just the right to have your private informations deleted and the guarantee that what you delete online is really deleted and nobody can recover it.

It's not the right to be removed from other's people memory.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by Kbelicius on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @06:05AM (#20865110)
> This!

>The right to be forgotten (or to oblivion) is just the right to have your private informations deleted and the guarantee that what you delete online is really deleted and nobody can recover it.

You say "this" and then written something completely different to what I wrote.

As I said, AFAIK the right to be forgotten doesn't give you the right to delete any information. It just gives you the right to remove some information from appearing in search engines.

An example I remember that happened in Netherlands is of a doctor that lost her medical license. When you searched her name, the first result was an article on some news site that she lost her license.

On appeal she got it back and using the right to be forgotten she removed that news article from search results. The article is still there on that news site it just doesn't appear in search results when you search her name.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by lostjohnny on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @06:30AM (#20865207)
> As I said, AFAIK the right to be forgotten doesn't give you the right to delete any information. It just gives you the right to remove some information from appearing in search engines.

Sorry, probably lost in translation.

I never said you have the right to delete any information, just you private informations and any data you own and you ask the controller to delete.

I don't know if you are aware that in EU for EU citizens we have the GDPR legislation.

Let's cite the law, Article 17, GDPR legislation

> Art. 17 GDPR

> Right to erasure (‘right to be forgotten’)

> The data subject shall have the right to obtain from the controller the erasure

> of personal data concerning him or her without undue delay and the controller

> shall have the obligation to erase personal data without undue delay

https://gdpr.eu/article-17-right-to-be-forgotten/

In particular, the controller has the right to retain your personal data (including the data you posted publicly) until you consent to it, if you revoke the consent, you can ask to stop the processing (art. 18) and delete everything they have about you.

If you comment on a social network, for example, that comment identifies you, because it is linked to your username, it has metadata attached to it, it can be used to track you, it is considered personal data, you can ask for removal.

Unless there is a (very) valid reason, the controller has to comply and delete every copy of the data, including backups (and soft deleted data that's still there).

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by jobigoud on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @07:15AM (#20865407)
The right to be forgotten predates GDPR, it's less about private data and more about obsolete public data. Like a prison sentence that you served and you have "paid your debt" to society, it avoids past mistakes to follow you forever even after you redeemed yourself.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by tomaskafka on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:03AM (#20866049)
Hey, you have the credit card PIN in your memory, no one has removed it, you "just" can't recall it. Good luck getting your money.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by lostjohnny on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:27AM (#20864908)
> If I want the local grocery cashier not to greet me by name, I can’t make them forget me.

You can go to another grocery store.

It's your right.

Sometimes solutions are simple.

Rest assured that in a few months nobody will remember you at the old store.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by sacheendra on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:17AM (#20864860)
Let me take a shot at answering this. The idea is that the internet is a social construct. The information it holds is shared knowledge accessible to everyone.

Contrast burning your photos with burning all copies of a book. On the internet, a lot of things exist in the gray area between them.

That makes it difficult to judge if the info that was is private or public.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by lostjohnny on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:26AM (#20864902)
> The information it holds is shared knowledge accessible to everyone.

Unless I want to delete what's mine.

I have no obligation of leaving it there for others to read.

> Contrast burning your photos with burning all copies of a book

That's a very wrong comparison.

You burn many copies of a single book

While I defend the right of deleting a single copy of the private work of a single human

Just like a painter has the right to destroy their own paintings.

it's already happened before

it is a right and it is unalienable

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/blu-destroys-bologna-stree...

https://www.streetartbln.com/blu-murals-painted-over/

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by joe_the_user on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @02:46AM (#20864182)
Unfortunately, I've got news for you, fallible and manipulable memories have been around for a long time.

For example, see the research of Elizabeth Loftus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Loftus

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by itronitron on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:15AM (#20864570)
Here is another useful reference >> http://creativethinking.net/how-easily-false-memories-are-cr...

The really interesting part is that you can create a false memory for someone even while telling them that you are doing it.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by Chathamization on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @08:48AM (#20865957)
Yeah. The widespread belief that memory is reliable - a false belief that this article propogates - is probably a lot more problematic than any of the research being discussed. It's not uncommon to see people presented with facts suggesting that their memories are false, and respond by dismissing the facts ("That can't be true, I remember it, I was there").
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by paganel on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:08AM (#20864819)
> tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity.

For almost two decades now I believed that "Total Recall" was mostly science fiction, that almost none of it will happen in real life anytime soon. Looks like I was wrong. [1] Philip K. Dick was a genius, with Paul Verhoeven not too far behind.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIzFuycHn_0

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by sn41 on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:09AM (#20866093)
"We can remember it for you wholesale" is the original short story, I think. Philip K. Dick's works taken as a whole, are mind-boggling. At some point, I want to work through Ubik.

Stanislaw Lem, the great Polish sci-fi author of works like Solaris, called Western sci-fi "A Hopeless Case with exceptions" - one of the very very few exceptions was Philip K. Dick. There's also a nice essay on Philip K. Dick specifically. [1], [2]

[1] https://www.depauw.edu/sfs/backissues/5/lem5art.htm [2] http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?253191

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by pmoriarty on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:05PM (#20871162)
"At some point, I want to work through Ubik."

I consider Ubik PKD's greatest and most accessible work. It's a really quick, easy read. Do yourself a favor and pick it up now!

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by sn41 on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @08:17AM (#20876385)
Thanks for the suggestion. I was afraid that it will be too dense. I'll give it a shot.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by lr4444lr on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @08:06AM (#20865715)
Upvote for referencing "Total Recall".

My favorite line in the film was actually a clever aside, when Quaid is being solicited by one of the mutant clairvoyants with an offer to tell him his future, his sardonic rejoinder is, "how about the past?".

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by p410n3 on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:43AM (#20864998)
Amazing. Video is blocked. The irony
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by dilyevsky on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:09AM (#20864539)
> Imagine not being able to believe your own memory.

Done. Memories are notoriously unreliable and you shouldn’t treat as ultimate source of truth.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by slampig on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:49AM (#20864734)
That's true, but not being able to believe no one has tampered with your memories is on another level.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by okr on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @06:07AM (#20865117)
Is believing not also memory related? Can you trust your beliefs? And what is memory anyways?
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by bsder on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @01:58AM (#20864024)
I could swear this happened with the errant USB-C configuration that the latest Raspberry Pi 4 screwed up.

At least 4 other projects I know of configured their USB-C the same exact incorrect way. Three of them absolutely swear that a Google search gave an online application note that told them to do this, but they can't find it anymore--it presumably got yanked as soon as the RPi error came to light and then dropped off the Google rankings. POOF Gone.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by phs318u on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:26AM (#20864628)
I'm guessing from your post that it was gone before archive.org could crawl it? You can force archive.org to save specific sites immediately so that you can use their (permanent) link as a future-proof citation [0].

Alternatively, something like WebSatchel [1]. I have no experience with it, so can't tell you if it's any good, or whether there's other software that does a similar thing.

[0] https://help.archive.org/hc/en-us/articles/360001513491-Save...

[1] https://websatchel.com/a1/#/

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by wruza on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @03:30AM (#20864338)
But imagine having much better memories than you have now. It is much better to wake up and go to work knowing that you spent a good vacation last three month, than having boring eternal life of a regular worker with low wage. Forget that your SO cheated on you. Believe that all people are good.

If you’d sell memory tampering devices, are you sure that most of them would be used against someone other instead of on buyers themselves?

What if we had special devices that could sneakily push preferences or suggestions to unaware person? It would be a very dangerous tech! (Oh, nevermind, I use one of them to write this comment)

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by bryanrasmussen on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:00AM (#20864495)
imagine starting every day of your working life thinking you just got done with a wonderful two weeks vacation, energized and ready to continue on with your employment tasks! in fact with our new happy memory management service your employees will never need to take a vacation, weekend, or fake sick day again - because they will think they just did!
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by antisemiotic on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:21AM (#20864599)
Plot twist: you're actually a moderator for Facebook looking at child porn and beheadings all day. Further plot twist: that FB gig was another fake memory to cover up your involvement in a secret government project involving lots of enhanced interrogation, to provide plausible cause for the psychological damage that wasn't entirely fixed by memory replacement.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by wruza on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:47AM (#20864724)
It is exactly what I meant. Unless you’re meaningless truth seeker, that life is a charm to live. People will do it to themselves, no need for special memory service guys. If you dig deep enough on what happiness, energy and fresh feelings are (against reality), there will be a plast of blurred lines very soon. Even health issues have many roots in your mental state. It is basically side-effect free, natural heroin.

Ed: oops, removed e from heroin

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by phs318u on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:17AM (#20864576)
"For the memory of a lifetime, Recall, Recall, Recall"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYRVMeAwVKk

"Don't fuck with your brain pal!"

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by jlawson on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @04:45AM (#20864712)
Remind me of Robin Hanson's Age of Em. Ems are human minds copied into computers and executable there. Being easy to copy, you can spin up as many Elon Musks as you need. And if you have the brain state stored, every day you can have those Elons on the best, most work ready, focused day of their lives. All digitally, of course.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by bryanrasmussen on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:02AM (#20864792)
I got an idea, let's have some of these Elon Musks handle our media communications today - what could go wrong?
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by imtringued on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @06:53AM (#20865306)
People already self-medicate themselves with alcohol and other drugs. Altering memories will just be one more thing on this list.

Since we are on a metaphorical treadmill where the vast majority of our wages are used on rivalrous goods like real estate or education the end result will be that people will work harder then alter their memories to continue beyond their breaking point. A 20 hour workday is no big deal because the company provides you with free memory alteration at the end of the work day. It doesn't matter that you slept at the office because you remember being at your nice single family home in the suburbs and sleeping for 8 hours.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by aloknnikhil on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @01:52AM (#20864000)
It also complicates the legal system as it exists today. The fact that artificial memory can be induced in someone's brain makes believing a witness a lot harder. So in addition to social and ethical concerns, it also upends the legal system.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by dclowd9901 on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @02:21AM (#20864103)
To be honest, witness testimony should never be or have been the sole basis for convictions. Peoples’ memory is so fraught with error that it’s basically useless on its own merits.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by raxxorrax on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @02:44AM (#20864172)
I think this is an exaggeration. Witnesses often try to be as helpful as possible and in doing so may supply too much information they themselves aren't able to verify. Of course that can prove to undermine their statements in the first place, but I don't believe attesting memory failures addresses the core of the problem with witness reports.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by beobab on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @03:45AM (#20864417)
And yet, direct witness statements from two helpful people standing next to each other, made immediately after the event can vary so wildly that you would wonder if they are describing the same event.

paraphrased from "The Invisible Gorilla: and other ways our intuition deceives us" (Chabris and Simons)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003P9XE56/

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by Kaiyou on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @08:16AM (#20865769)
No, witnesses should never be believed. Especially not if you have a bunch of witnesses that tell you the same story. Sounds unintuitive, but it's true. And we know this for at least a hundred years, already. If anyone is interested in further reading on this, I recommend "Mass Psychology" by Gustave Le Bon.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by russdill on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @07:53AM (#20865639)
Nearly every time you recall an event, you are modifying your memory of the event.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-09-memory-gameeach-recal...

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by taneq on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @03:19AM (#20864293)
Is it possible that you're experiencing the Mandela Effect? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory#Mandela_Effect)
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by short_sells_poo on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @06:48AM (#20865281)
> The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory.

We've been doing it for a while with drugs. Some of them can cause a temporary loss of your short term memory.

It's a really bizarre sensation. You suddenly lose the ability to comprehend the chronology of recent events and can make no connection between real events and your own memory. There is no "now", you only have memories, and because you lost the causal link, you can't tell the difference between an authentic memory and your own imagination. I can only imagine how terrifying it would be to live like that constantly.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by namibj on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @07:57AM (#20865660)
No need for drugs. You can train to use it against traumatic events, though the side-effects seem to be severe (inability to actually process what happened is only the beginning). You want temporarily accessible episodic memory, just so you can think about recent past.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by hammock on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:12AM (#20866132)
Well, info on the internet is different than a memory. And perhaps books, speech recording etc are the antidote anyway to tampered memories - making an argument to strengthen First Amendment protections.

More powerful than personal memory, though, might be common knowledge. As they said at Epsilon Theory (using Harvey Weinstein as an example),

Even if everyone in the world believes a certain piece of private information, no one will alter their behavior. Behavior changes ONLY when we believe that everyone else believes the information.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by hyperpallium on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @10:42AM (#20866930)
Seeing a webpage/story/comment be changed used to unsettle me - I couldn't understand what had happened, since books don't change. Especially subtle wording changes. Why did I remember it differently than it was...? But I don't seem to notice it any more.

There once was kind of nasty piece on Laurene Jobs, with lots of authentic-seeming detail. It's been completely gone for years now. Maybe this comment too will discover where it went.

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by root_axis on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @10:09AM (#20866601)
How is content disappearing from the internet "gas lighting"? Internet content are not "memories" and if you didn't post the content yourself and didn't even bother to store a local copy of it, why should you be entitled to that information in the future?
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by WhompingWindows on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:28AM (#20866268)
Memories are already highly infallible, we have numerous examples from eyewitness testimony to Trump's fabrication of Muslims cheering to any time someone else's story became your story because "its a good story". So, I don't think memories being changed is radical, it's par for the course IMO.

You think mouse scent memory being tampered with is more dangerous than mass nuclear weaponry or bio-engineered pathogens?

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by hos234 on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @02:58AM (#20864220)
Whats preventing the gaslighters from being gaslighted? It's not a bad thing if we can change Putin or the Saudi Head Looneys memory and behavior. These kind of Debates always get won by the Edward Teller's in the room.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by coldtea on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @03:07AM (#20864252)
>Whats preventing the gaslighters from being gaslighted?

That they have the power...

>It's not a bad thing if we can change Putin or the Saudi Head Looneys memory and behavior.

LOL, if only the problem with gaslighters was just Putin or the Saudi Head Looneys...

How about your own government, mass media, big corporations, and so on?

Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by hos234 on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:35AM (#20864950)
Ofcourse them too. They are more of less programmed as it is to chase likes/clicks/views of their respective fan clubs. Tweaking the counts of what their fan club likes automatically changes their behavior. They just don't know they are all deeply trapped.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by coldtea on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:42AM (#20864991)
Well, how are we gonna gaslight them? Especially since they have all the power, and regularly gaslight us!
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by hos234 on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @05:58AM (#20865080)
It's easy if they are on social media everyday. You just have to encourage them to believe whatever bullshit they already do. Compliment them. Encourage their fan clubs. Give them stories about how their opponents are lying/cheating/dening their brilliance etc etc. The more it happens, the higher their social media counts climb, the further and faster they get disconnected from reality. It's what happened to Obama. Which is why he is in hiding unable to influence shit.
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by GoblinSlayer on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @08:03AM (#20865697)
Why do you think they listen? They run this world and who are you?
Re:The growing science of memory manipulation by raxxorrax on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @03:33AM (#20864359)
I believe more in Putin changing your memory than the other way around. Small details I suppose. And that I believe that Putin would indeed nuke you before letting that happen.