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Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by madeofpalk on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:39PM (#20825201)
Go give windows a try and report back.

I've been using Windows for the past couple of weeks and, granted maybe I haven't really given it a chance, using it after using Macs for 10+ years is not great.

Maybe developing on macOS has become a hassle (I don't see that, but sure), but doing everything on Windows is a hassle. Taking a screenshot. Opening the right file. Displaying UI at a reasonable scale. Think what you want of macOS 'recently', but Windows is just full of bets and decisions that show they're not really concerned about the user experience.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by p1necone on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @08:11PM (#20825415)
Eh, as someone who's primarily used Windows (and a bit of Linux with xfce) for my entire life I find Macs basically unusable (seriously how do I browse the file system). I think it's more of a question of familiarity than anything else.
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by _coveredInBees on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @08:59PM (#20825687)
I hear you about Finder. Windows File explorer seems a lot easier and more feature rich compared to Finder. The single most annoying thing is that there is no easy/ obvious way to grab the path to a file/folder in Finder, which seems like the most basic of features. I did figure out a keyboard shortcut at some point, but Finder feels so dated as a file manager.
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by kalleboo on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @10:57PM (#20826284)
As a life-long Mac user, I feel the opposite. Whenever I have to use Windows, it feels like Windows Explorer is missing lots of features I take for granted, some that the Mac has had since the 90's. Stuff like spring-loaded drag and drop, directory sizes being calculated in list views, QuickLook... It also has some really braindead design choices like sorting directories separate from files, making navigating with the keyboard a pain (and last I checked, this can't even be turned off!)

To me Windows Explorer feels like it hasn't been updated with modern features since XP, aside from adding the ribbon

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by orpheline on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:14PM (#20826363)
Interesting. I use a MBP for work, and hate that Finder intermixes directories and files. I much prefer having directories sorted separately: it makes it easier to drill down through a hierarchy of all the directories are grouped together...
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by kalleboo on Thursday August 29, 2019 @12:07AM (#20826602)
I browse my file system a lot with the keyboard by typing the first few letters in a file name, and if directories are sorted on the top, that means getting to a file starting with the letter "F" is way more difficult when there are also directories named with "F". It also makes things messy when you have related files and folder. E.g. how Firefox saves a website as a "page name.html" and a directory with the assets "page name files". Suddenly these aren't grouped together and copying them together means scrolling back and forth.

At least in the Finder on the Mac you can turn your preferred behavior on (it's in preferences/advanced). On Windows AFAIK there is no setting for it.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by dmitriid on Thursday August 29, 2019 @01:33AM (#20826922)
> At least in the Finder on the Mac you can turn your preferred behavior on

Per directory. There’s still no way to set the desired view and sorting for the entire system.

And DMGs will open with no toolbar and sidebar.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by kalleboo on Thursday August 29, 2019 @05:18AM (#20827967)
I don't mean just sorting a window by file type - Finder has a global "Keep folders on top when sorting by name" preference that applies to all windows.

AFAIK there is no way to get Windows to not sort folders on top.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by neilalexander on Thursday August 29, 2019 @08:55AM (#20829021)
Finder has a preference item called "Keep folders on top" for both "In windows when sorting by name" and "On Desktop".
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by sixstringtheory on Thursday August 29, 2019 @02:39AM (#20827224)
What about sorting by type/kind? Sounds like you might be on sort by none/name...
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by chipotle_coyote on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @09:31PM (#20825876)
If the Path bar is visible, you can right-click at any point along the path of the selected file and select "Copy Path." You can also just drag an icon from a Finder window into any window that accepts text, including Terminal, and it'll paste the fully qualified path right in.

I always used to find Windows File Explorer to be the one that was less feature-rich, but I haven't used it in... we'll just say a shamefully long time. But as someone who got used to Macs an equally long time ago, I've wondered if it's because the Mac seemed to make drag-and-drop such a central way of manipulating files and Windows emphasized "select object - select operation" as its central metaphor. If you're used to one way, moving to other system feels weird and clunky.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by sixstringtheory on Thursday August 29, 2019 @02:23AM (#20827137)
I’ll grant you it’s not obvious, but it’s quite easy once you know (as with most things in GUIs): just drag it. You can drag a file/folder from Finder to Terminal or a text editor and it’ll populate the full path.

You can even drag a folder from a Finder window to a save prompt or web browser upload prompt and it’ll relocate you to that directory in the prompt.

The rich drag and drop functionality is one of my favorite features of macOS.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by PascLeRasc on Thursday August 29, 2019 @10:47AM (#20829946)
If you're still using macOS/Finder, try entering `defaults write com.apple.finder _FXShowPosixPathInTitle -bool true` in Terminal and restarting Finder, it'll show the full path in the title bar.
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by saagarjha on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:54PM (#20826533)
> The single most annoying thing is that there is no easy/ obvious way to grab the path to a file/folder in Finder, which seems like the most basic of features.

Right click and hold down the option key, I believe.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by w1nst0nsm1th on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @09:26PM (#20825844)
MacOS shine truly with the adoption of companion apps, like Alfred. Bettertouchtool, Popclip, Fantastical, Post-it apps, Bartender, and others (like totalfinder and totalspace) and the integration of these app in the status bar or finder or even the integration with iOS.

Linux desktop experience and all its software suite are rudimentary compared to MacOS with these additions. I'm coming from there and before that Windows, and MacOS is definitivelly the OS which offer the best desktop experience.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by aloer on Thursday August 29, 2019 @02:51AM (#20827284)
Finder is probably the worst part of using a Mac. But explorer isn’t that much better either

I am currently forced to use windows and it’s near impossible to get anything done with it without feeling frustrated. It simply doesn’t follow my speed and line of thought on anything.

I am quite shocked after using Mac for 7 years how little progress or even regression windows 10 went through. Without making this into a windows bashing thread only the explorer related things I can think of:

- unzip hidden behind right click or freaking menu button. And a dialog with checkbox to “show files after extraction”. Mac: double click. New folder. Done

- rename through right click or f2. Laptop means fn+f2. Mac: press enter, type, done

- quicklook on Mac is the single greatest feature ever. Mainly because it works in file dialogs. Need to upload a file but don’t know which one? Just quicklook. Windows afaik has no equivalent

- somewhat related, maximum length of file paths. There is no excuse for that in 2019. If unzipping fails because of this the software is just plain bad

And this is just explorer which I barely use. Shocking

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by zbigniewc on Thursday August 29, 2019 @05:45AM (#20828091)
Interesting! Having used a Mac for 6 months after years of Windows, I had quite the opposite feelings:

> unzip hidden behind right click or freaking menu button

By default double click or Enter will cause Explorer to peak into .zip files, which is more natural to me as I might not want to unzip the whole file to see the contents.

> rename through right click or f2

The fact that in Finder the Enter button does not actually enter a directory or run/open a file but let me rename it was the biggest surprise. I personally rename filesystem objects rarely, while I 'execute' them all the time, it does not make sense!

> quicklook on Mac is the single greatest feature ever. Mainly because it works in file dialogs. (...) Windows afaik has no equivalent

Fully agree - it is a very useful feature. Explorer also has it under 'Preview pane' name, but it's disabled by default. I think that Mac version is better, because if I remember correctly it does preview PDF files, while Explorer does not. Other typical files work fine.

> somewhat related, maximum length of file paths.

Fully agree.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by trbn on Thursday August 29, 2019 @07:04AM (#20828403)
As for QuickLook on Windows I can recommend the brilliantly named "QuickLook": https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/quicklook/9nv4bs3l1h4s
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by aloer on Thursday August 29, 2019 @09:06AM (#20829094)
> The fact that in Finder the Enter button does not actually enter a directory or run/open a file but let me rename it was the biggest surprise. I personally rename filesystem objects rarely, while I 'execute' them all the time, it does not make sense!

You are right, I hadn’t thought of that. But there is an easy solution that imho in a way is better anyways:

CMD arrow allows you to navigate through file structure including drill down, I.e. open folder.

CMD o opens/runs any file selected (also opens folders so it’s a not-so-elegant replacement for open on enter)

This to me makes more sense though now that I think about it because it differentiates between running (potentially unsafe/slow) and quick keyboard navigation through folders. I admit the CMD arrow functionality is a bit hidden

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by jplayer01 on Thursday August 29, 2019 @05:59AM (#20828141)
I feel like much of that is a matter of convention. Why wouldn't you put extract in the right-click menu, which can be extended by any number of applications with whatever useful functions. It's just functional in a way that makes sense.

Renaming with anything other than Enter makes sense because Enter opens the file.

The file path thing is bizarre. Windows 10 supports a path length of 32767 characters. But last I checked you had to change a registry setting before it was the default. And getting W10 to respect a long file path in Python programmatically was a huge pain.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by aloer on Thursday August 29, 2019 @09:12AM (#20829151)
> Renaming with anything other than Enter makes sense because Enter opens the file.

Does it? Enter is “text confirmation, make new line”. With single line inputs it’s expected to work like a submit for e.g. a search. Submitting a file name change happens with enter on windows as well. Now if you rename with f2, then submit with enter and accidentally press enter a single time you suddenly have executed or opened something you only wanted to rename. Enter, the most prominent big button with a single function after space, suddenly becomes a completely orthogonal context sensitive option. That’s weird

And don’t get me started on the use of enter in Microsoft teams based on context of your message...

If you are in a list or ‘’’ code formatted block the first enter will break out and allow you to write plain text below in the same message, the second enter will send the message

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by jplayer01 on Thursday August 29, 2019 @10:28AM (#20829785)
> Enter is “text confirmation, make new line”.

Ehm. If you're in the middle of writing text, yes. Which you aren't if you're going through a directory with the explorer. "Enter" also activates buttons. Enter is always context-sensitive. It changes depending on the application and context. I don't see what's wrong with this.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by jimpudar on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @08:53PM (#20825648)
What do you find lacking in Finder for browsing the filesystem? Also, Spotlight tends to work great for me whereas Windows search almost never finds what I want.

You also have the terminal, so you're free to `cd`, `find`, `locate`, etc...

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by x0x0 on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:54PM (#20826534)
tab completion also works in Finder. You can open it with command-G
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by taude on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:53PM (#20825309)
Taking a screen shot hard on Windows? Windows-shift-S lets you grab a region vs macbook's shift-command-3 or 4 or 5, or whatever it is (I don't currentlyy have a mac).

anyway, I will say that WSL is a lot better than what we had, but it's no where near as great as terminal working on the Mac. Maybe WSL 2.0 will be better. But I do miss my Mac tooling.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by madeofpalk on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:56PM (#20825337)
> Windows-shift-S

Thanks, I didn't know about this! I'll give it a go!

I've been using Lightshot to try and make screenshot taking a bit more bearable, but its still no cmd-shift-4 drag region and have a screenshot on my desktop.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by bhauer on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @08:59PM (#20825693)
The printscreen button also loads the current screen into the clipboard.

You can find all keyboard shortcuts here: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12445/windows-keybo...

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by taude on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @08:22PM (#20825480)
I was using Greenshot or Snagit until I learned this recently, myself.
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by dpedu on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:44PM (#20825237)
> Displaying UI at a reasonable scale.

It's amazing how bad Windows still is at this. In my experience, connecting monitors of different densities results in crazy things breaking, like the "maximize window" feature.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by FireBeyond on Thursday August 29, 2019 @03:04AM (#20827358)
It's also funny, though, how selectively we remember things.

Only a few years ago Mac multi-monitor support was horrific. You couldn't straddle two screens with a window. And heaven help you if you were dealing with full screen, your second monitor was effectively disabled.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by mkl on Thursday August 29, 2019 @07:01AM (#20828388)
My experience is totally different. I use monitors of different densities every day, and move things between them, etc. Nothing bad happens, and maximising just works.

The only bad Windows density thing I run into is when I occasionally remote desktop into Windows Server 2012, which doesn't know about HiDPI or resolution changes, so if it starts on the wrong screen everything is hilariously tiny. That's fixed in more recent Windows Server versions.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by GordonS on Thursday August 29, 2019 @01:57PM (#20831971)
I have a different experience. I connect to 3x HD monitors at work, one of which is portrait. At home I connect to a 3K monitor and a portrait 1980x1200 one. All works flawlessly for me.
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by blinkingled on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:44PM (#20825243)
> Taking a screenshot. Opening the right file

Former is PrtScn key on my keyboard. Microsoft ships Snipping Tools and lately Snip n Sketch for screenshots - never had any issues with either.

Latter - not sure what you mean - opening the right file as in setting default program to open a file? That's easy enough and it's the best experience on Windows.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by madeofpalk on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:50PM (#20825288)
Press print screen and it does... I'm not sure what?

I /remembered "Snipping Tool", so I searched for "Snip" and launched that, and it shows a menu that says like "Snipping Tool is deprecated, use Snip n Sketch" so you click that and a new app opens (but old one stays open as well) and you take your screenshot and then its open in a window that you have to go and save.

I know I'm biased because its what I'm used to for 10 years, but on Mac I just have the (insane) cmd + shift + 4 shortcut engrained that'll snip a part of my screen and save to my Desktop. It's just so much quicker than Windows.

re opening file: I miss Quicklook to make sure I have the right file selected. Also miss being able to drag a file into an open dialogue box to select it to open.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by dsego on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:55PM (#20825328)
> Press print screen and it does... I'm not sure what?

Copies it into the buffer, silently. No notification, nothing. Great UX.

In Ubuntu it's even better, it actually saves it as an image file (and does the annoying shutter effect). But the repeat key is not turned off... so if by any chance you hold it down by mistake, thinking it was the right ctrl, oh boy, you get a shitstorm of shutter effects and dozens of screenshots in the pictures folder. Very annoying. I don't know which I hate more, Ubuntu or Windows.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by userbinator on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:04PM (#20826316)
Copies it into the buffer, silently. No notification, nothing.

Do you expect Ctrl+C to not be silent either? Because that's what PrintScreen and all the other clipboard operations were designed as.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by ben-schaaf on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @08:57PM (#20825670)
Out of interest, what keyboard has a Print-Screen key next to ctrl?
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by dsego on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @09:07PM (#20825728)
Thinkpad T480s, goes space, alt, prtsc, ctrl.
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by PixyMisa on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:05PM (#20826321)
Window-Shift-S then click and drag.

Unfortunately it's one of those things that is incredibly useful but isn't mentioned anywhere.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by asdff on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:55PM (#20825327)
Snipping tool looks like something cobbled together for a capstone project compared to macos shift cmd 4 which doesn't get in your way at all.
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by banachtarski on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @09:12PM (#20825752)
It's been largely updated from several weeks (months?) ago (windows shift S now replaces the old snipping tool).
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by dsego on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:47PM (#20825266)
PrtScn only if you want to paste it into an image editing program. If you want to save it as file (which is what most people do) than it's some combo. I still remember how it was common for people to send me word files with screenshots pasted, they didn't know better.
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by crummy on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @08:09PM (#20825403)
This is actually the one use case where I'm happiest with the Mac + touchbar. OSX lets you screenshot a portion of the screen, a particular window, or the entire screen, and save it to clipboard or desktop, and the keyboard combinations to choose between these are pretty hard to remember.

But the touchbar lets you touch a single button, off-screen, and then clearly choose between these options: https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT201361

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by anaisbetts on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @09:04PM (#20825712)
This is the Windows 7-era way to do this. Hit WindowsKey-Shift-S instead.
Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by rhacker on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @09:03PM (#20825708)
Definitely agree here. I have a 2014 MBP. I can't let go of it. Last year I bought a brand new laptop with Windows 10 on it. I definitely think it is a major improvement over all Windows since XP (better than XP of course too).

I told myself I have to eventually migrate... still hasn't happened. There's just no reason to dive into horrible Pythoning, Dockering, NodeJSing (do I have to bring up Node-Gyp?)

For development Windows has a long way to go, even with WSL.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by wklauss on Thursday August 29, 2019 @02:47AM (#20827264)
> Maybe developing on macOS has become a hassle (I don't see that, but sure), but doing everything on Windows is a hassle.

I have Windows installed on a Bootcamp partition on my Macbook Pro. Aside from the hassle and quirks of a different operating systems (coming from MacOS I find Windows extremely lacking in UX), I find perplexing the way Windows handles color profiles. Same computer, same screen, but everything is super saturated in Windows. In some websites with a lot of color in the background it can be jarring.

Re:MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy by GordonS on Thursday August 29, 2019 @02:08PM (#20832087)
I run Windows in Bootcamp too, but gods the keyboard and especially the trackpad are horrendous. I have the 2016 model, and hate the keyboard even in MacOS, but it's really obvious that Apple have deliberately crippled the Windows drivers.

I eventually came across trackpad++, which at least renders it usable, but still unpleasant - I travel with a USB mouse these days (sigh, which obviously means a USB dongle for the MBP...).