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Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by martythemaniak on Monday August 26, 2019 @12:27PM (#20801139)
Well, Tesla is one long stream of gambles. You dont get to school an established, global, trillion dollar industry without taking risks.

The only notable thing here is that hating on Musk is really popular these days. So the failed gambles (this, falcon doors, the initial overautomation of the Model 3 production, etc) will be highlighted and mocked, while the successful gambles will go unmentioned or incorporated as a matter-of-fact developments.

Running Tesla stories through a selection bias filter is really useful, as it'll discard most stories that pop up.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by seem_2211 on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:39PM (#20803531)
Pretty unsurprising really - sure, hating on Musk is popular, but it's mostly a reaction to the fawning uncritical gaze most people give him, and the way he's portrayed as this genius who is amazing at executing.

Elon Musk is great at promising stuff, and then terrible at executing. For every promise he fulfills there are 20 that he doesn't. But sure, the guy who flies private everywhere and shitposts more than I do is "working 100 hour weeks" and "cares for the environment."

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by martythemaniak on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:09PM (#20803812)
I have a buddy - amicable, smart, did great in a tough school, did even better career wise, responsible for dozens of people, etc - who nevertheless explodes with anger and hatred and goes on 15-minutes tirades if someones brings up Musk in any positive light whatsoever. It is quite a shocking sight.

"Reaction" is the key word here. The opposite of a fanboy is not a hater, it is the person who doesn't care. The fanboy and the hater are two sides of the same coin - they both develop an obsession with a person and define their personalities as a function of this person. Whether that function is love or hate is secondary.

The way out of his is to ignore him, or judge him by his work. He sells cars - really good cars. For example, they have the best range and are incredibly safe. Your emotional reaction won't make you car's range go down, or make you any less safe in a crash.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by toast0 on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:41PM (#20804076)
> The way out of his is to ignore him

And any thread that involves him; I'm not good at this, but I'm trying. The reason Elon Musk inspires such hate is because he is constantly PRing (generously) unverifiable claims, but rarely gets any consequences from it. If he would let his work speak for itself, there would be less haters; his companies are clearly doing some things well.

It's kind of a Steve Jobs thing, but Jobs rarely made forward looking claims -- sure his claims of invention were irritating to some, but they were about a product that existed at the time of the claim.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by smallgovt on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:31PM (#20804005)
> Elon Musk is great at promising stuff, and then terrible at executing.

His behavior of overpromising and underdelivering is a deliberate strategy to drive productivity within his employee base. You may not like that approach, but it seems to have worked.

You may judge him to be "terrible at executing" if you compare his output with his promised output. If you compare his absolute output with that of a common industrious person, you'll find he scores off the charts.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by threeseed on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:23PM (#20803926)
Actually a lot of hate on Musk is coming from him being completely unethical.

From transactions like SolarCity to calling divers pedophiles to allowing Autopilot to even be deployed en masse.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jdsully on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:00PM (#20803150)
Funny there were people just like you saying the exact same thing about Enron when Bethany ran her famous article back then (yes this is the same author that took down Enron). As with Tesla Enron was big on "innovation". Innovations fail, and the stress of dealing with them tends to lead CEOs into unethical behavior.

There's nothing wrong with taking risks and failing. There is something wrong with taking investor money and using it to bail out an unrelated company.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by CamperBob2 on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:22PM (#20803377)
The difference is, Enron didn't build any cars, manufacture any solar panels, or launch any rockets.

Anyone buying into Musk's vision understands that they're buying into all of it, for better or worse. Either that, or they're too dumb to be entrusted with large amounts of money, and markets have a way of handling that situation quickly and efficiently.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jdsully on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:28PM (#20803429)
Your right, they built Power Plants [1] and fibre optic networks instead [2]. Enron was at its core an infrastructure company.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dabhol_Power_Station

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/2002/01/01/b...

They are only remembered for their financial "innovations" which was ultimately their downfall. But to suggest they didn't make anything tangible is false. They even had a "Netflix" style streaming service setup with Block Buster at one point.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by CamperBob2 on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:51PM (#20803632)
They financed them. They moved money around, they didn't build anything. I've never seen an "Enron" logo on any actual products.

Enron accomplished nothing that wouldn't have happened without them, in one form or another. Agree with him or not, Musk tackles things that either wouldn't happen at all without him, or that would happen too slowly to matter.

The reality is, we need both kinds of companies, but we also need them to behave ethically.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jdsully on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:03PM (#20803747)
Enron employed boots on the ground construction workers and line men. They started as an LNG pipeline company. All of those blue collar workers lost their pensions when they went bankrupt. You can see some of them in the Enron documentary “Smartest Guys In The Room”.

They were not some hedge fund merely shuffling paper around. GE is a very apt comparison.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by danso on Monday August 26, 2019 @12:43PM (#20801311)
You read this story and think it boils down to "hating on Musk"? Which of the story's numbers or claims about SolarCity finances and production do you believe are distorted or misleading?
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by martythemaniak on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:00PM (#20801517)
It's more of a meta comment on which stories surface up on Hacker News and other media. The selection of content you get exposed to can matter more than the exact content you consume.

I went for dinner to my in-laws a few months ago and my mother-in-law asked if I had heard about the Tesla that caught fire in Shanghai. I said, yeah but did you hear about all the combustion cars that had combusted that day. She had not of course. Didn't even know "normal" cars catch fire. Nothing against her in particular (she had seen it on a mainstream TV news program), I've had similar conversations with coworkers, aquiantances, on social media, etc.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by danso on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:09PM (#20801622)
Genuinely curious: how did you identify this story as being low value? The Shanghai anecdote to me seems self-evidently low value (since the incidence of car fires is still rare, and individual incidents have low impact). But this story's headline (on the article page) alleges serious misconduct, as well as financial problems/shortfalls that unavoidably impact Tesla.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by martythemaniak on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:14PM (#20803844)
I didn't say this particular one was, I was cautioning people against what I see as an instance of a very tight social media bubble.

My example may seem low-value, but I've seen lots of very long and detailed discussions around here about Tesla's "Executive Exodus", which fall into the exact same selection bias pitfall.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by sooheon on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:29PM (#20803982)
It's strange how you are responding to a perceived trend, yet will not respond substantively to the actual contents of this particular post. Are you correct, and is this part of anti-musk mania which must be discarded? Or does this report have some value?
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by olau on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:45PM (#20801998)
Red flags for me were language and sources. The writer didn't try to test her assumptions, as far as I can tell.

I think it's true that Musk went in and tried to save SolarCity by assuming control and changing the course. That was news at the time where it happened. He did the same to Tesla, actually. It's also true that he's always talking about visions.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by danso on Monday August 26, 2019 @03:28PM (#20802883)
What do you have in mind in terms of the writer needing to test her assumptions? I don't know what that means, both in terms of the assumptions that she's obligated to test, or what that "test" would look like in the article.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by kjksf on Monday August 26, 2019 @06:49PM (#20804519)
Here's an example of an assumption she could have tested (as opposed to re-printing as a quote).

The headline of this article starts with: "He (Musk) is full of shit".

Why?

Because that's a quote from a single person she interviewed, who is a disgruntled ex-employee of Tesla with a history of ranging against Tesla and Musk (to quote the article "Since then, he had taken to sending Elon Musk emails and point-blank tweets, describing the pain the layoffs were causing.").

(as a total aside, if you've heard about a laid off low-level employee angrily tweeting and e-mailing a CEO of Fortune 500 company (116 to be exact) you would probably think "an unstable person" not "a good subject expert to interview").

Instead of treating "Musk is full of shit" as a fact, she should could ask herself "is Musk really full of shit"?

Should could do it by asking more people what they think about Musk, more Tesla employees, including those that are still happily employed.

This article is clearly sourced from the most vocal, the most virulent Tesla haters (the self-proclaimed members of $TSLAQ on Twitter).

You can easily find even more people very happy with Tesla's products and I'm sure there are plenty of employees who think highly of Musk.

But it's clearly a hit piece, not interested in presenting a balanced account.

The part about Walmart lawsuit doesn't mention Tesla's response (which paints Walmart in a very bad light) or subsequent joint statement from Walmart and Tesla where they make nice.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by cma on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:21PM (#20803909)
After the Shanghai fire Tesla did an over the air update to lower the cars’ capacity by charging to a lower voltage.

Your uninformed mother-in-law may have actually had a better handle on things by not being a major fan and not internalizing the Tesla PR response.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jsharf on Monday August 26, 2019 @12:59PM (#20801502)
Perfectly true facts can still create bias, by selectively focusing attention. None of this needs to be wrong or distorted.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by mannykannot on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:16PM (#20803309)
> None of this needs to be wrong or distorted.

The perfect defense against truth in any form.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by hi5eyes on Monday August 26, 2019 @12:54PM (#20801446)
its difficult to critique tesla/elons decisions without running into the cult of teslemmings making it their personality of defending musk of any wrongdoing
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by srumino on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:17PM (#20803312)
Hating on Musk is popular these days in large part because it is becoming more and more obvious that he is in many ways a con artist. Look at his recent self-driving car promises, for example. I don't believe that he is so misinformed as to actually believe his own self-driving car promises, so I view his over-promising as deliberate deception.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jayd16 on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:28PM (#20803425)
This is the guy that thought he could build a leading electric car and space company and then did that.

You don't think Musk believes he can do anything? He always over-promises but that's not exactly the same as a con artist.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by srumino on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:33PM (#20803478)
Do I think that Musk actually believes Tesla will have a fully self-driving car by the end of 2020? No.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by mlyle on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:48PM (#20803612)
He might believe that (which is rather questionable), but extending that to robotaxis at scale... no, I don't believe he believes that. I hope he doesn't believe that.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by smallgovt on Monday August 26, 2019 @07:22PM (#20804720)
Classifying him as a con artist based on his tendency to overpromise and underdeliver is a stretch when taking the colloquial definition of "con artist". Is he telling a lie? Yes. Does his audience, in general, feel "conned" when they realize he overpromised? No.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by moltensodium on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:18PM (#20801712)
"Hating on Musk is really popular these days" is exactly the sort of meaningless nonsense people used to post about Elizabeth Holmes.

Stop worrying about what is hip and trendy and trying to dismiss things that sounds like other things. You don't even try to parse and respond to any facts or details from this story at all, you're just being lazy.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by moosey on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:11PM (#20803250)
Currently, Tesla and SolarCity and others like it are dealing with current political turmoil. It's obvious to anyone with secular attitudes that we need to build up battery and renewable energy technologies. When we appeared to be moving in the direction of supporting the technologies with subsidation, it appeared that this was the path that we'd be taking long term, that the US political system was coming to term with its issues, and that early adopters would be able to survive. This isn't always the case, often times early adopters don't quite get it right, and later adopters come along and correct the few issues that exist, and then they prosper.

For better or worse, secular understandings and political understandings don't always jive. Now that political attitudes have changed, it seems obvious that early adopters will struggle, as their affordability is often based on those same subsidies. This is the only frame of reference in my mind that is terribly important when it comes to the success or failure of many of the properties that Musk runs. The fact that he's kept them going in the current political and social environments is really a credit, I think.

He's not building fossil fuel based vehicles. He's not building coal plants. He's keeping the space race alive. The general dislike of this guy seems personal. There are far larger financial crimes to go after, but Musk made himself a target. Damn, I wouldn't doubt that he does some of it on purpose.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by threeseed on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:26PM (#20803954)
> There are far larger financial crimes to go after

That isn't a reason to not go after Musk.

Executives at all levels need to be made an example of when they commit a crime. Otherwise it encourages others to do the same.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by Traster on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:12PM (#20803253)
There are gambles like "I want to heavily invest in this technology" and there are gambles like "I want to commit fraud to bail out my other company". The thing people are criticising isn't the gamble, and it's disingenuous to present that as the main issue.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by whatok on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:00PM (#20801514)
Please describe how this selection bias filter works.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by Retric on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:04PM (#20801563)
Failure is more interesting. The Model 3’s novel UI was extremely risky, but seems to have been acceptable so it’s rarely mentioned.

In the end he takes a lot of risks, but it’s only by looking at both successes and failures that you can judge his approach is reasonable.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by whatok on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:21PM (#20801738)
The number and magnitude of the failures are larger now than there were in the past. Similarly, look at the old SolarCity acquisition thread linked below. The sentiment is completely different.

No one cares about a great UI if people's roofs are catching fire. With all the positives and negatives weighed and accounted for, there is simply more negative things going on with the company right now than positive.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by Retric on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:32PM (#20803467)
I was more saying the Model 3’s terrible UI did not seem to be an issue.

As to success, quietly selling 1/3 as many Model 3’s as Toyota Camry’s is what success looks like. Nobody cheers for the 292,371 car to roll off the assembly plant. It’s simply boring and not really worth talking about outside of boardrooms and climate change projections.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by mcv on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @05:55AM (#20807845)
> "The only notable thing here is that hating on Musk is really popular these days."

I don't hate Musk at all. I love what he does and what he has done. But he plays a ridiculously high-risk game, and that could risk destroying all the great things he built.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by navigatesol on Monday August 26, 2019 @03:54PM (#20803089)
Yeah, Bethany McLean is running Tesla hating content.

Or, hear me out, there's something to what these "haters" have been saying for years. Which is more likely?

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by aerovistae on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:02PM (#20801535)
Indeed. I think this article is on the money in the sense that SolarCity and the Buffalo plant failed, but without any greater context it's misleading. While this failed, SpaceX succeeded, the Model S succeeded, the Model 3 succeeded (even if it's been a rocky road).

I don't think Musk was trying to harm anyone-- I think he doesn't realize he's human and he can't actually juggle 44 million balls at once. And I think even if he drops some balls, we're all better off for the ones he juggles successfully.

If the collateral cost of a revitalized space industry and a growing electric car industry is $750million wasted in NY State, that seems like a small price to pay.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by threeseed on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:56PM (#20803682)
The "nice guy" or "busy guy" argument doesn't hold up in court.

You have an obligation as CEO (and Chairman at the time) to be ethical and legal in your actions.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by aerovistae on Monday August 26, 2019 @07:11PM (#20804648)
I think the long arc of history is a little more important than what holds up in court.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by threeseed on Monday August 26, 2019 @09:49PM (#20805617)
If Musk ends up in jail I don't think history will remember him well.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by aerovistae on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:46AM (#20820933)
You're crazy if you think there's even a sliver of a chance Musk is going to serve prison time.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jshowa3 on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:06PM (#20801581)
Nobodies perfect. Not even Musk. So I suggest accepting both the faults and successes of the man as a complete package.

Tesla is one of the many cases of Silicon Valley syndrome where you run a company at negative profit forever while claiming to make all these substantial advances (some laudable, others stupid) in an attempt to disrupt something that's been working for decades for specific reasons. There's a reason car assembly lines aren't fully automated. There's a reason car companies don't allow customers to pre-order a vehicle. There's a reason dealership networks exist.

Musk isn't some fantastical genius with a solution to everything. Everyone before Musk was as smart and as talented, so his active refusal to really learn from anyone before him is what causes him so much headache. In fact, I'd argue that his contract with NASA probably saved SpaceX because that's one avenue where he didn't ignore a previously, well established business.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by Reedx on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:29PM (#20801832)
It's not really one of those cases though. Electric cars were all but dead. They were considered a joke ("golf carts") until Telsa challenged the status quo and changed the industry. Many seem to have already forgotten this.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by btilly on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:28PM (#20803428)
I have on my bookshelf a book from 20 years ago, which includes a feasibility study commissioned by a major auto company, that concluded that mass market electric cars would not be economically feasible until around 2020, but after that would wipe out the existing ICE industry.

The public may have thought that electric cars were all but dead. But smart people knew that their time had not yet come.

Oh, and look! Excepting high end niches that Tesla figured out, and government subsidies, that timeline from 20 years ago looks to come true pretty much on schedule.

I admire Elon Musk. Without him, reusable rockets wouldn't have happened for many more years. But electric cars would have happened with or without him.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by mrnobody_67 on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:48PM (#20803610)
Tons of environmental consequences for mining lithium and cobalt that are swept under the rug, not to mention battery disposal costs, when talking about electric cars -- https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDes...
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jshowa3 on Monday August 26, 2019 @02:38PM (#20802459)
Electric cars were not all but dead. They've actually been quite prevalent, it was just done largely pre-WWW so you didn't see a lot of the hype. It also wasn't that feasible because of the lack of technology.

And since companies were actually trying to make money, and cars were becoming more fuel efficient, there wasn't the demand. In fact, there still isn't that high of a demand for electric cars these days.

I'm not discounting that Tesla made some innovations. But people make it out like Tesla radically changed the functionality of the electric car when it's still largely the same technology, just more advanced.

To give an example, the Nissan Leaf was out well before people even heard of Tesla, and that was one of the most popular and widely sold electric vehicles. At the time, Tesla only had the 100k Roadster.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jdsully on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:05PM (#20803197)
Tesla was the first to show that electric cars could look good and be performant. Before this the prototypes were excessively aerodynamic and underpowered (probably because of range anxiety). Unfortunately for the environment good aerodynamics make for ugly cars.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jshowa3 on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:48PM (#20803609)
I'd argue it was because of battery technology. There was a substantial advance at around 2004 by decreasing the diameter of lithium iron phosphate particles. This increased the capacity significantly of LIB's. Then you have a couple of years of commercialization, then you bring it to market at high cost, then manufacturing process improvements drive the cost lower.

Other improvements drive the capacity even higher through packaging innovations and possible manufacturing improvements as well.

I highly doubt it was due to range anxiety. Even the early Tesla roadster could, at most, go 200 miles. That's nothing on a gasoline engine.

The Nissan Leaf does not look that ugly. It looked like your standard hatchback for the time.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jdsully on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:52PM (#20803646)
I’m arguing that Tesla ignored range anxiety and traded range for power and style. The other manufacturers weren’t willing to do it.

Batteries did improve but its not like Tesla had access to better batteries than GM (at least in their early days).

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jacquesm on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:13PM (#20803270)
> Unfortunately for the environment good aerodynamics make for ugly cars.

1955; drag coefficient 0.36:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS

Since then we've come quite a bit further, the TM3 has 0.23, which is a substantial improvement but neither car looks ugly.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jdsully on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:15PM (#20803282)
I think most North American consumers would consider it ugly (I do), but I haven't done a survey.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by Marazan on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @02:08AM (#20806747)
The Nissan Leaf was released 2 years before the first Tesla.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by tigershark on Monday August 26, 2019 @02:30PM (#20802410)
All the talented people that you mentioned were laughing when he proposed reusable rockets, and we all know how it ended.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jshowa3 on Monday August 26, 2019 @02:40PM (#20802477)
Reusable rockets have existed for decades. The space shuttle program used reusable rockets. The DCX was a rocket that controlled similar to the falcon 9 in the 90's. The problem is, both programs were shelved in favor of cheaper, unmanned, probe vehicles.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by tigershark on Monday August 26, 2019 @03:24PM (#20802854)
No, the shuttle rockets where expendable. The only reusable part was the shuttle itself and every launch was very expensive compared to SpaceX. Do you have any source for the reusable rockets used in the space shuttle?
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jshowa3 on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:03PM (#20803753)
They were not expendable (although they could be). They were refurbished. However, because of splashdown, the damage from corrosion and the need to refurbish the rocket because it wasn't tanked, caused the cost to not be feasible.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by new_realist on Monday August 26, 2019 @03:55PM (#20803109)
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by pmorais on Monday August 26, 2019 @04:29PM (#20803440)
That’s revisionist nonsense.
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by kiba on Monday August 26, 2019 @05:39PM (#20804061)
Revisionist nonsense in what sense?

All I heard was comment of "SpaceX Steamroller" from industry insiders. The companies that could have invested in rocket reusability decided to sit by and do nothing. It's not like it's an impossible physical achievement either.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by navigatesol on Monday August 26, 2019 @03:55PM (#20803103)
You think Musk was the first to propose reusable rockets?
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by tigershark on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @01:00AM (#20806465)
I think that Musk was the first and the only one to propose, build and continuously operate reusable rockets capable of autonomously landing at a fraction of the price per launch of whatever existed before. And the only one that made possible a safe landing of three rockets in the same mission with Falcon Heavy. Do you have any proof that anyone else did the same before him?
Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by navigatesol on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @07:54AM (#20808596)
>Do you have any proof that anyone else did the same before him?

That anyone proposed resuable rockets before Musk? Use Google. You're naive if you think otherwise.

>at a fraction of the price per launch of whatever existed before.

There's no evidence that these resuable rockets are a "fraction" of the cost to re-launch. In fact, the cost is likely the reason that no one else has done it; it doesn't make economic sense, not because it's impossible.

Re:Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity by jstummbillig on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:15PM (#20801679)
There's also a reason electric driving has been put off as long as it has.

Everything is done a certain way until it isn't but that historically is past the point of "about damn time" and "why'd take so long". Doing what is right and what is smart are often very different things — and I am not claiming Musk is doing either, but this certainly didn't convince me of the opposite.